Jasprit Bumrah - Best average in last 100 years (min 150 wkts)

[Kron]

6 hours ago, putrevus said:

Bumrah is not better test bowler than Marshall yet. Marshall took 370 plus wickets at 20.99. Marshall had to contend for wickets with 3 other great fast bowlers. Let Bumrah reach 250 wickets before putting him as an ATG great fast bowler.

 

He had two series on his hand but both test series, he came up very short one as a captain and anohter as bowler. So let us pump the brakes about putting him into ATG category.

 

Ambrose and Walsh have more test wickets than Marshall but they themselves have told many times Marshall is best fast bowler from WI.Ambrose was not far behind Marshall as test bowler but Marshall was more skilled.Ambrose was far better odi bowler than Marshall.

 

Whiteball cricket just like Steyn, Marshall is not ATG.

 

Shami has outbowled Bumrah in 50 over world cups both in 2019 and 2023.So where does that put Bumrah in whiteball cricket?

 

 

He needs to win a wtc title or help us win a series in England and draw one in nz. Then we shall see. 

[Muloghonto]

On 6/15/2024 at 12:48 AM, Rightarmfast said:

@Muloghonto One interesting stat I just checked is that Marshall did not fare too well in NZ. Neither has Bumrah, though. Also, Marshall started performing from the 4th yr of his career. His record in ODi is not great. Although, Bumrah is an all format player. Also, Marshall may not have been a 150+ bowler. More 145ish or thereabouts. Which he reduced speed at a later part.

I think Imran Khan at his quickest would have been around 145-147ish. Mostly would have been like 140-142ish.

In Marshall's days and even to this day, Tests is far more important than ODIs and especially in the 80s, people didnt focus much on ODIs as much they did in tests. Despite this, Marshall's record in ODIs is still pretty good. As for the new zealand tour- that was one of the most blatantly cheating tours in cricket and one that got the conversation started for neutral umpires- you will see that none of the WI bowlers did well in that series against a NZ batting lineup that they'd eat for dinner every day. 

Marshall at his peak ( 81-82 to 88-89) was a 150kph bowler by most accounts. 

But he is by far the best pacer ever in tests and the gap between him and others is significant imo- seeing him confirms that.

 

[Muloghonto]

On 6/15/2024 at 12:32 AM, Rightarmfast said:

For once, I would prefer disagreeing with you. I am going to place Jasprit Bumrah right above or at par with Marshall. In any event, I wont have Bumrah in the 2nd tier. And here's my logic why:

1- Havent checked Marshall's stats for first 8-9 yrs. I think Bumrah has been playing for the last 8-9 yrs and he has been ridiculously consistent. I do not know how consistent Marshall was. He may well have been. But what shifts winds towards Bumrah is that Bumrah has been playing enormous amount of cricket, and no matter which format, which team or at which level Bumrah has been playing, he has always come up ace! Bumrah has always been top performer. So the sheer magnanimity of the no of formats and games, there's no way Marshall could match that. 

 

2- Despite playing so much, Bumrah has still been pretty quick. In the initial 4-5 yrs, he was clicking in excess of 150k's or close, and even now, he has been clicking in excess of 92mph and hovering around 93mph. That's insane. 

 

3- West Indies always had a history of fast bowlers. The support, whether in training or bowling in tandem was always there. Bumrah had none of that. When he came into the scene, the fast bowling culture was still being built. And now that he has been there for a while, the fast bowling culture is being broken. All thanks to our selectors and management. Despite that, he emerged as best. Well, it's always easier to excel when you have a great support system with you. That would make it a tad easier for Marshall than for Bumrah. 

 

Haven't written all this just for the sake of argument. But I truly believe so.

 

1. Marshall had to compete for wickets against far better bowlers than Bumrah does. This is why virtually all WI pacers started off slow and found their feet in the first 2-3 years of their careers. The only exeption was Ian Bishop, who before he got his back injury was a better bowler than even Ambrose IMO. 

 

2. Bumrah does not play more cricket than Marshall- just look at how much FC cricket marshall played and how much bumrah plays overall. The total # of mileage on each bowler is significantly in favour of marshall and imo one of the criticism i will give bumrah is that he isnt as strong a workhorse as Marshall is - there are games where marshall bowled 20 overs in a day and i cant think of any that bumrah did. 

 

3. I have never seen Bumrah clock higher than 145-146 kph and nowadays he mostly hovers around the 138-142 kph mark. 

 

4. Bumrah didnt come from a fast bowling culture like marshall did, but Bumrah had far more coaching support than Marshall, since coaching today is far far more analytical and involved than in the 80s and especially for WI, who didnt even have a coach for extended periods of time in the 80s.

 

[Kron]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

1. Marshall had to compete for wickets against far better bowlers than Bumrah does. This is why virtually all WI pacers started off slow and found their feet in the first 2-3 years of their careers. The only exeption was Ian Bishop, who before he got his back injury was a better bowler than even Ambrose IMO. 

 

2. Bumrah does not play more cricket than Marshall- just look at how much FC cricket marshall played and how much bumrah plays overall. The total # of mileage on each bowler is significantly in favour of marshall and imo one of the criticism i will give bumrah is that he isnt as strong a workhorse as Marshall is - there are games where marshall bowled 20 overs in a day and i cant think of any that bumrah did. 

 

3. I have never seen Bumrah clock higher than 145-146 kph and nowadays he mostly hovers around the 138-142 kph mark. 

 

4. Bumrah didnt come from a fast bowling culture like marshall did, but Bumrah had far more coaching support than Marshall, since coaching today is far far more analytical and involved than in the 80s and especially for WI, who didnt even have a coach for extended periods of time in the 80s.

 

Think there is no debate between Marshall and bumrah. But tbf bowling works in pairs. So marshal had the advantage of playing alongside great bowlers too. So it becomes easy pickings for him to clean up. He won't have to over exert himself etc. He can conserve energy and bowl with full intensity for longer periods. 

 

Marshal ia the best ever test bowler anyway. No doubt about that. 

 

To match him himrah would need to win 2 wtc titles and win away series in England and nz. Then we will see. 

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

 

 - there are games where marshall bowled 20 overs in a day and i cant think of any that bumrah did. 

 

 

Bumrah has bowled 20+ overs a day many times in his test career.

 

 

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

3. I have never seen Bumrah clock higher than 145-146 kph and nowadays he mostly hovers around the 138-142 kph mark. 

 

 

Even in this T20 WC, Bumrah has crossed 147 kph in all games but one. Has bowled lots of balls in the 143 k to 147 k range. 

 

In the 2023 ODI WC, Bumrah crossed 147 kph in all the last 4 games in the business end with a fastest of 148 k. And this is in the 9th year of his career after 2 serious back injuries.

 

In test matches in 2018, as per Cricviz, Bumrah bowled 75 balls above 150 kph with a fastest of 153.3 kph. Crossed 150 kph in the 2019 WC too.

 

Even after his first back.injury Bumrah has clocked 149 kph in test matches in 2021. 

 

Marshall has never been clocked in his life and his exact speeds are not known but just speculation. He was the quickest WI pacer in the 1983 to 1987 period. Looked very bouncy for a not too tall pacer. 

 

 

[MediumPacer]

Bumrah is a chucker,icc allows this piece of crap due to bcci.

[zen]

Overrated but I can understand the enthusiasm for him as India has been looking for such pace bowlers for a long time. 

[Rightarmfast]

6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

In Marshall's days and even to this day, Tests is far more important than ODIs and especially in the 80s, people didnt focus much on ODIs as much they did in tests. Despite this, Marshall's record in ODIs is still pretty good. As for the new zealand tour- that was one of the most blatantly cheating tours in cricket and one that got the conversation started for neutral umpires- you will see that none of the WI bowlers did well in that series against a NZ batting lineup that they'd eat for dinner every day. 

Marshall at his peak ( 81-82 to 88-89) was a 150kph bowler by most accounts. 

But he is by far the best pacer ever in tests and the gap between him and others is significant imo- seeing him confirms that.

 

Exactly what I am saying, Bumrah has been exceptional in tests. He is by no means 2nd to anyone. Marshall's record in ODI is ok. It isnt good. Batters were not aggressive then, as against what Bumrah has to deal with in both tests and ODI's.

As far as cheating is concerned, that honestly cant be given as a reason. Or else, we will have to downgrade Imran Khan, Waqar, Wasim down the ladder by several notches. They cheated with the ball, as well their umpires cheated blatantly. Things that arent in players hand cant be given as an excuse.

[Rightarmfast]

6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

1. Marshall had to compete for wickets against far better bowlers than Bumrah does. This is why virtually all WI pacers started off slow and found their feet in the first 2-3 years of their careers. The only exeption was Ian Bishop, who before he got his back injury was a better bowler than even Ambrose IMO. 

 

2. Bumrah does not play more cricket than Marshall- just look at how much FC cricket marshall played and how much bumrah plays overall. The total # of mileage on each bowler is significantly in favour of marshall and imo one of the criticism i will give bumrah is that he isnt as strong a workhorse as Marshall is - there are games where marshall bowled 20 overs in a day and i cant think of any that bumrah did. 

 

3. I have never seen Bumrah clock higher than 145-146 kph and nowadays he mostly hovers around the 138-142 kph mark. 

 

4. Bumrah didnt come from a fast bowling culture like marshall did, but Bumrah had far more coaching support than Marshall, since coaching today is far far more analytical and involved than in the 80s and especially for WI, who didnt even have a coach for extended periods of time in the 80s.

 

It's easier to bowl in tandem with champion bowlers than without. More often than not, you reap the rewards of another bowler who has pushed back the batsman. I would check the no of FC matches that Marshall played, however the intensity and scrutiny of matches currently is next level than what it was in yesteryears. 

You may have seen Bumrah bowl no more than 145/146, because thats what you wanted to see. Fact is, Bumrah has genuinely been a 150 bowler till a few yrs back, and he still bowls in excess of 145 now, which is insane. 8-9 yrs in international cricket and still clocking 145+ is no fluke. 

 

Again, training methods is a very generic and unquantifiable measure. You can only train with what is available to you. In Marshall's time, the rules heavily favored bowlers. And West Indian bowlers were allowed to do intidimatory bowling, without being questioned. With way lesser safety gears, the batsmen were more terrorised for their life, than from the bowling. There is no such cushion for bowlers like Bumrah and Cummins now.  

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Overrated but I can understand the enthusiasm for him as India has been looking for such pace bowlers for a long time. 

Says someone who thinks Softdik Pandya is Jesus Christ revived!

[Kron]

4 hours ago, MediumPacer said:

Bumrah is a chucker,icc allows this piece of crap due to bcci.

Icc is a sycophant body. Bcci that is. If bumrah truly is a chucker he would be banned by now. We usually like to act all sanctimonious so I highly doubt bcci allows him to pass tests if he truly did chuck.

Edited June 17, 2024 by Kron

[Kron]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Says someone who thinks Softdik Pandya is Jesus Christ revived!

Correction. Small dick

[singhvivek141]

6 hours ago, MediumPacer said:

Bumrah is a chucker,icc allows this piece of crap due to bcci.

There is only one country which is land of chuckers, unfortunately they're at the western border of our northern India.

 

 

[Muloghonto]

9 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

It's easier to bowl in tandem with champion bowlers than without. More often than not, you reap the rewards of another bowler who has pushed back the batsman. I would check the no of FC matches that Marshall played, however the intensity and scrutiny of matches currently is next level than what it was in yesteryears. 

You may have seen Bumrah bowl no more than 145/146, because thats what you wanted to see. Fact is, Bumrah has genuinely been a 150 bowler till a few yrs back, and he still bowls in excess of 145 now, which is insane. 8-9 yrs in international cricket and still clocking 145+ is no fluke. 

 

Again, training methods is a very generic and unquantifiable measure. You can only train with what is available to you. In Marshall's time, the rules heavily favored bowlers. And West Indian bowlers were allowed to do intidimatory bowling, without being questioned. With way lesser safety gears, the batsmen were more terrorised for their life, than from the bowling. There is no such cushion for bowlers like Bumrah and Cummins now.  

Bowling in tandem with champion bowlers lowers your average but also lowers your wicket/match ratio. 
I can also say that you saw bumrah bowl 150kph is because thats what you wanted to see. In this era of every ball's speed being recorded,can you show me any evidence of bumrah bowling 150kph consistenly ? 

I am not talking about training methods but actual coaching on the job - how to correct your action, how to plan for your opposition etc. In Marshall's era, Bumrah's career would've been over 2 years ago, like it happened to Bishop for eg. 

 

[Muloghonto]

9 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Exactly what I am saying, Bumrah has been exceptional in tests. He is by no means 2nd to anyone. Marshall's record in ODI is ok. It isnt good. Batters were not aggressive then, as against what Bumrah has to deal with in both tests and ODI's.

As far as cheating is concerned, that honestly cant be given as a reason. Or else, we will have to downgrade Imran Khan, Waqar, Wasim down the ladder by several notches. They cheated with the ball, as well their umpires cheated blatantly. Things that arent in players hand cant be given as an excuse.

Bumrah is below Marshall and Ambrose imo in overall quality and longetivity, he is below the names i mentioned for longetivity as well. Guy needs to take at least 300 test wickets to enter the convo for the top tier. period. 

Cheating in that NZ-WI series is part of well known cricket lore and it does explain the horrible averages of every single WI bowler in that series. 

 

[Rightarmfast]

5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Bowling in tandem with champion bowlers lowers your average but also lowers your wicket/match ratio. 
I can also say that you saw bumrah bowl 150kph is because thats what you wanted to see. In this era of every ball's speed being recorded,can you show me any evidence of bumrah bowling 150kph consistenly ? 

I am not talking about training methods but actual coaching on the job - how to correct your action, how to plan for your opposition etc. In Marshall's era, Bumrah's career would've been over 2 years ago, like it happened to Bishop for eg. 

 

Naah, I have seen numbers, and hence I say he has been a 150+ bowler. I will share some data with you.

and naah, Bumrah wouldn't have burnt out. It's just your assumption. Now, if you start analysing players the way you are based on training available during that time, I think even a No 11 batsman in the late 70's and early 80's era was a better batsman than Virat Kohli and Tendulkar. because they never got the training these players do. And in that respect, Kapil Dev was a better bowler than Cummins.

[Rightarmfast]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Bumrah is below Marshall and Ambrose imo in overall quality and longetivity, he is below the names i mentioned for longetivity as well. Guy needs to take at least 300 test wickets to enter the convo for the top tier. period. 

Cheating in that NZ-WI series is part of well known cricket lore and it does explain the horrible averages of every single WI bowler in that series. 

 

Longevity is something you can debate on. However, your argument would be premature because we have to wait to see what happens in the next 5 yrs. However, the trajectory in the last 9 yrs shows that Bumrah will keep on progressing. There's no data available to prove otherwise. 

And for him to reach 300 wickets, the teams need to have as many test matches as well. 

[Rightarmfast]

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Bumrah is below Marshall and Ambrose imo in overall quality and longetivity, he is below the names i mentioned for longetivity as well. Guy needs to take at least 300 test wickets to enter the convo for the top tier. period. 

Cheating in that NZ-WI series is part of well known cricket lore and it does explain the horrible averages of every single WI bowler in that series. 

 

For quality? I mean thats a bit funny @Muloghonto Ambrose by no means was better in quality. He didn't have the variations that Bumrah has. Plain and simple. Didnt even have the same record that Bumrah has, despite playing in an era where the bowlers had more advantages plus the pitches were more bowler friendly. You are stretching it. Let's be realistic.

And I do not think Marshall was better quality wise either. They can be at par. 

[zen]

9 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Says someone who thinks Softdik Pandya is Jesus Christ revived!

 

Good to see the forum keeping clueless idiots like you busy here  

 

Jesis Christ, do you even know who he is?

[Rightarmfast]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Good to see the forum keeping clueless idiots like you busy here  

 

Jesis Christ, do you even know who he is?

If the forum can keep a retard like you entertained for so long, I see no harm in it keeping others busy here. 

Jesis?? What u been smoking dude..?