Jasprit Bumrah - Best average in last 100 years (min 150 wkts)

[Kron]

30 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You cannot go into a conversion of ATG with such a small body of work like Bumrah.

 

He is not even best from Asia yet. I certainly hope he helps India go over the line in this world t20.

 

I hope I am wrong but I don't think he can play injury free for two reasons, he plays all formats which means he gets no rest plus his action .

If you help india win away series and win a wtc potentially or another icc title in odi etc then yes even with low amount of tests he warrants the atg tag. 

 

If he helps india win a series in England and atleast draw in nz next time then he enters the convo provided he can back it up with a wtc win as well. 

[Kron]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

I really like you @Muloghonto but sometimes you make me laugh. Ambrose's avg in Pakistan is 25+. In SA is 23+ ( which is still phenomenal). However, lucky he never played in India, or his avg in India would have been 27+!

He played 20 tests in England with an avg of 20 odd, and England used to be a spineless team in that era. They were Zimbabwe level team.

Ambrose played 52 matches in WI, ie majority of his cricket on his home ground with an avg of 21 odd. Now, we have had spinners and batsmen from India who have marauded oppositions in India, but we dont call them world beaters. We despise them. Ambrose's career took a spike by performing in familiar environment, friendly atmosphere and known pitches. I am sorry, I do not call that the world's best. Just like how I dont call Ashwin the best spinner. 

 

Nah, I do not buy your logic of Ambrose having more control than Bumrah. If he had, he would have had better stats in Pakistan. You can live in this make believe logic, but I do not. 

But weren't pak batsmen quite good in 90s though. I am not going to compare Ambrose and bumrah at this point but pak batsmen were pretty good in Pakistan plus home biased umpiring. So 25 is still good.

 

Btw Walsh was more scary to face in India than Ambrose.

 

India never really had issues with Ambrose even in west indies from memory. 

[singhvivek141]

13 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You cannot go into a conversion of ATG with such a small body of work like Bumrah.

 

He is not even best from Asia yet. I certainly hope he helps India go over the line in this world t20.

 

I hope I am wrong but I don't think he can play injury free for two reasons, he plays all formats which means he gets no rest plus his action .

Bumrah may not a huge sample size, but it ain't small either..

He has total 387 wickets across formats with an cumulative avg around 23. Not a small sample by any means.

 

Anyway, I have always maintained that a player shouldn't play all 3 formats. Bumrah can easily take his time off from ODI's and continue to play only T20 & Tests.

[singhvivek141]

13 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You cannot go into a conversion of ATG with such a small body of work like Bumrah.

 

He is not even best from Asia yet. I certainly hope he helps India go over the line in this world t20.

 

I hope I am wrong but I don't think he can play injury free for two reasons, he plays all formats which means he gets no rest plus his action .

Bumrah may not a huge sample size, but it ain't small either..

He has total 387 wickets across formats with an cumulative avg around 23. Not a small sample by any means.

 

Anyway, I have always maintained that a player shouldn't play all 3 formats. Bumrah can easily take his time off from ODI's and continue to play only T20 & Tests.

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, Kron said:

But weren't pak batsmen quite good in 90s though. I am not going to compare Ambrose and bumrah at this point but pak batsmen were pretty good in Pakistan plus home biased umpiring. So 25 is still good.

 

Btw Walsh was more scary to face in India than Ambrose.

 

India never really had issues with Ambrose even in west indies from memory. 

Sri Lankan umpiring was worst, but he averages 9 in Sri Lanka against weak batsmen. a difference of 4 is huge, and what you are trying to say is- 1) Since Pakistani batsmen were good, Ambrose couldn't make inroads. Well, that makes him an average bowler.

2) The umpiring is to be blamed for his mediocre average. Well, that's a huge claim. To say that bad umpiring could make such a marked difference in stats, you need to check stats of other bowlers travelling to Pakistan. Did they have such a huge deviation? I doubt. 

 

Honestly, you are trying a tad hard to cover up, but I aint buying. Neither are you sounding convincing.  

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

It sure looks like it has effected.

I am making points, giving stats and talking. If you have any credibility, do the same and put me down. Personal attacks don't mean much. But if that gives you a good sleep, so be it. I choose not to engage with mediocrity.

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

It sure looks like it has effected.

And btw, it's 'affected'. Try working on your English, so atleast your English is better than your cricketing knowledge.

[Kron]

48 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Sri Lankan umpiring was worst, but he averages 9 in Sri Lanka against weak batsmen. a difference of 4 is huge, and what you are trying to say is- 1) Since Pakistani batsmen were good, Ambrose couldn't make inroads. Well, that makes him an average bowler.

2) The umpiring is to be blamed for his mediocre average. Well, that's a huge claim. To say that bad umpiring could make such a marked difference in stats, you need to check stats of other bowlers travelling to Pakistan. Did they have such a huge deviation? I doubt. 

 

Honestly, you are trying a tad hard to cover up, but I aint buying. Neither are you sounding convincing.  

I agree with your premise. Ability wise there is no doubt at all that bumrah is up there with the best. But we can't out him above Ambrose yet. 

 

Infact in terms of sheer ability to me he is already the best ever from Asia. But longevity to An extent matters. Can't put him above wasim yet from Asia in that regard. 

 

But if he wins a couple of series in sen and a wtc then everything changes.

[Rightarmfast]

5 minutes ago, Kron said:

I agree with your premise. Ability wise there is no doubt at all that bumrah is up there with the best. But we can't out him above Ambrose yet. 

 

Infact in terms of sheer ability to me he is already the best ever from Asia. But longevity to An extent matters. Can't put him above wasim yet from Asia in that regard. 

 

But if he wins a couple of series in sen and a wtc then everything changes.

In skills and performance, he is above Wasim. Shami is above Imran Khan. 

When it comes to longevity and no of tests played, ofcourse only time can tell. Like I said, look at his career graph. His skill sets, career progression has shown data that has only gone upwards and better than any other bowler historically. 

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

I really like you @Muloghonto but sometimes you make me laugh. Ambrose's avg in Pakistan is 25+. In SA is 23+ ( which is still phenomenal). However, lucky he never played in India, or his avg in India would have been 27+!

He played 20 tests in England with an avg of 20 odd, and England used to be a spineless team in that era. They were Zimbabwe level team.

Ambrose played 52 matches in WI, ie majority of his cricket on his home ground with an avg of 21 odd. Now, we have had spinners and batsmen from India who have marauded oppositions in India, but we dont call them world beaters. We despise them. Ambrose's career took a spike by performing in familiar environment, friendly atmosphere and known pitches. I am sorry, I do not call that the world's best. Just like how I dont call Ashwin the best spinner. 

 

Nah, I do not buy your logic of Ambrose having more control than Bumrah. If he had, he would have had better stats in Pakistan. You can live in this make believe logic, but I do not. 

 

Stop doing mental gymnastics. Ambrose played in Aus, Eng, WI, Pak,Nz, RSA & SL and of them, his HIGHEST average is 25.20 in Pakistan. he averages 9.00 in SL , 19.79 in Aus, 22.60 in NZ. Ie, the guy has literally performed excellently everywhere he's played. Thats a far cry from Ashwin, who's average outside India and Sri lanka is a big fat zero.

Ambrose had much, much better control than Bumrah, which is reflected in his economy rate being significantly better than anyone from his era, unlike Bumrah.

 

[zen]

If you watched cricket in the 90s, you would know that the test cricket played b/w Aus and WI esp. till the mid-90s, when Aus' graph was going up and WI's was going down, was among the highest quality cricket ever witnessed. 

 

Lara, Ambrose, S Waugh, etc., were at a different level. There was this test match at Adelaide which WI won by 1 run - Link

 

I have not seen Bumrah (stats aside) get close to the performances of some of these ATG bowlers. Even if a team had 5-6 wickets in hand on the 4-5th day, you would feel that these bowlers could change the game in a matter of a spell. 

 

Even Allan Donald in the 90s was such a beast. Bowling India out for peanuts. 

 

When these bowlers, at their peak, had the ball in their hands, the crowds felt a sensation.

 

I would like to see Bumrah create such an atmosphere. Otherwise, it is just the usual "campaign"  in India that we have seen previously with Kapil, Sachin, Kohli, etc.

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2024 by zen

[Lord]

Batting is definitely easier now than in the 90s

 

By the same token, someone averaging 20 with ball now is better than someone doing it in 90s. Its simple.

 

It can't be both batting and bowling were tougher in 90s

[Rightarmfast]

30 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Stop doing mental gymnastics. Ambrose played in Aus, Eng, WI, Pak,Nz, RSA & SL and of them, his HIGHEST average is 25.20 in Pakistan. he averages 9.00 in SL , 19.79 in Aus, 22.60 in NZ. Ie, the guy has literally performed excellently everywhere he's played. Thats a far cry from Ashwin, who's average outside India and Sri lanka is a big fat zero.

Ambrose had much, much better control than Bumrah, which is reflected in his economy rate being significantly better than anyone from his era, unlike Bumrah.

 

I wonder what's triggering you. Ambrose has played 52 tests on homegrounds. The only challenging condition in the subcontinent he faced was in Pakistan, and his average shot up by over 4 points. Is that not understandable? A longer duration, and more no of matches in the subcontinent against India and Pakistan would surely have dented his average further down. This isn't rocket science. 

And this is not assumption, this is what the career graph shows us. Assumption is comparing Bumrah based on longetivity when he hasn't finished 40% of his career. 

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, Kron said:

I agree with your premise. Ability wise there is no doubt at all that bumrah is up there with the best. But we can't out him above Ambrose yet. 

 

Infact in terms of sheer ability to me he is already the best ever from Asia. But longevity to An extent matters. Can't put him above wasim yet from Asia in that regard. 

 

But if he wins a couple of series in sen and a wtc then everything changes.

@Kron @Muloghonto I think some of my words seem too harsh. And I do not mean to put either of you down. But I have also watched all these bowlers for a long time, and to me, Bumrah is a class apart. He is for me, no less than any. And he has proved it through sheer performance and grit.

[Muloghonto]

31 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

I wonder what's triggering you. Ambrose has played 52 tests on homegrounds. The only challenging condition in the subcontinent he faced was in Pakistan, and his average shot up by over 4 points. Is that not understandable? A longer duration, and more no of matches in the subcontinent against India and Pakistan would surely have dented his average further down. This isn't rocket science. 

And this is not assumption, this is what the career graph shows us. Assumption is comparing Bumrah based on longetivity when he hasn't finished 40% of his career. 

 

Or he might've destroyed India in India like Walsh did. Its suffice to say that if you think averaging 9 in SL and 25 in Pak is bad, then you must have a very different view of what bad is. Bumrah is done around 50% of his career in tests. he isnt going to last into his late 30s like Ambrose or Walsh did, not with that jerky action.

 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Rightarmfast said:

@Kron @Muloghonto I think some of my words seem too harsh. And I do not mean to put either of you down. But I have also watched all these bowlers for a long time, and to me, Bumrah is a class apart. He is for me, no less than any. And he has proved it through sheer performance and grit.

From what i have seen, Bumrah is not in Marshall's class, nor Ambrose's. he is barely in McGrath's class and thats discounting longetivity. With longetivity, he is not in top 10 yet. 

[Rightarmfast]

8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Or he might've destroyed India in India like Walsh did. Its suffice to say that if you think averaging 9 in SL and 25 in Pak is bad, then you must have a very different view of what bad is. Bumrah is done around 50% of his career in tests. he isnt going to last into his late 30s like Ambrose or Walsh did, not with that jerky action.

 

Didn't mention 9 in Sri Lanka because I didnt mean to embarass you. The 1st test he played against them in SL was way back in 93, when SL were minnows. Still his performance okay'ish. SL were not world beaters in test anyway. If he averaged 25 in Pakistan, which is 4 points above than the rest of his career, his stats in India would have been disaster. Not the other way round. 

About the jerky action, well a lot has been said and he is still going strong, with that 'jerky' action! 

Whether he will last or not is an assumption! You know what you make of yourself when you 'ass'ume?

[Muloghonto]

27 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Didn't mention 9 in Sri Lanka because I didnt mean to embarass you. The 1st test he played against them in SL was way back in 93, when SL were minnows. Still his performance okay'ish. SL were not world beaters in test anyway. If he averaged 25 in Pakistan, which is 4 points above than the rest of his career, his stats in India would have been disaster. Not the other way round. 

About the jerky action, well a lot has been said and he is still going strong, with that 'jerky' action! 

Whether he will last or not is an assumption! You know what you make of yourself when you 'ass'ume?

Or he could've destroyed India in India like Walsh, who was a lesser bowler than him, did. He's already had a serious injury - the likes of which in the 80s or 90s would've ended his career. Whether he lasts or not is to be seen and until Bumrah can get to at least 300 wickets club in tests, he does not merit comparison with the ATGs.

Its just that simple.

 

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Bumrah may not a huge sample size, but it ain't small either..

He has total 387 wickets across formats with an cumulative avg around 23. Not a small sample by any means.

 

Anyway, I have always maintained that a player shouldn't play all 3 formats. Bumrah can easily take his time off from ODI's and continue to play only T20 & Tests.

Bumrah has been taking time off from both odis and t20s. It is not due to his workload he is getting injured.

 

Odi world cup is still lot more important than any t20 world cup.He will play IPL as he should as that is his money making opportunity.

 

 

Ambrose has 400 plus test wickets alone at avg 20.99.Let him reach 250 plus test wicket before calling him ATG.

 

 

 

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

I am making points, giving stats and talking. If you have any credibility, do the same and put me down. Personal attacks don't mean much. But if that gives you a good sleep, so be it. I choose not to engage with mediocrity.

First I did not engage with you at all. You only replied to my post.I never attacked you personally either..

 

There is no stat which can prove Bumrah is better than Ambrose yet.