Indian batsmen against spin in T20 internationals

[vvvslaxman]

31 minutes ago, Gollum said:

If things go normally we'll face Aus/NZ in Barbados. Final also in Barbados. In that venue I trust Kohli more than any batsman in Indian cricket history. There are much bigger things to worry about than Kohli's place lol.

 

He can retire after the WC, just have faith in the GOAT.

 

But he ends up eating up so many balls and accelerating too late. Batsmen end up playing "supporting role" . India has to break free from that pattern. Kohli's 100 in IPL in the last year was an example. He slowed down unnecessarily.  Entire team's dynamics change when he is around. India should go with young guys with 3,4,5,6 go with intent. India's "patented" approach is well known. Teams know how to stifle us. Rohit has no place in the side either. India needs a complete overhaul. 

[Sooda]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

You are missing the point. Kohli's failure against spin has nothing to do with Rohit/Rahul failure who are also blamed for their failures. It is not like fans ignore others and exclusively criticize him. Just because he sucked less doesn't mean he didn't suck. This is how PUjara/Rahane/Kohli survived 3 years in Test averaging under 30. We just compared one with other and gave a free pass match after match.  We don't want such a scenario. KOhli doesnt fit the bill. I am looking for guys like Jaiswal, Ravindra, Mitch Marsh who show intent from the get go and continue attacking Not taking singles for 10 overs. 

 

Sad thing is we had such a team when Rohit and Virat sat out and could have been building towards something special with them if selectors had allowed it:

 

Gill, Jaiswal, Sky, Hardik, Rinku, Jitesh, Sundar, Axar, Kuldeep, Jasprit, Arshdeep... 

 

Tilak, Dube, Bishnoi, Samson, Mukesh ?

 

Could be a good squad 

[Nikhil_cric]

3 hours ago, Sooda said:

 

Sad thing is we had such a team when Rohit and Virat sat out and could have been building towards something special with them if selectors had allowed it:

 

Gill, Jaiswal, Sky, Hardik, Rinku, Jitesh, Sundar, Axar, Kuldeep, Jasprit, Arshdeep... 

 

Tilak, Dube, Bishnoi, Samson, Mukesh ?

 

Could be a good squad 

Exactly. Our T20 squad was shaping out to be decent with quite a few options.  The return of Kohli and Rohit has wrecked everything. 

 

[putrevus]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

You are missing the point. Kohli's failure against spin has nothing to do with Rohit/Rahul failure who are also blamed for their failures. It is not like fans ignore others and exclusively criticize him. Just because he sucked less doesn't mean he didn't suck. This is how PUjara/Rahane/Kohli survived 3 years in Test averaging under 30. We just compared one with other and gave a free pass match after match.  We don't want such a scenario. KOhli doesnt fit the bill. I am looking for guys like Jaiswal, Ravindra, Mitch Marsh who show intent from the get go and continue attacking Not taking singles for 10 overs. 

You are missing the point. .

 

This intent nonsense you are talking about is from teams who had solid openers and solid finishers.What did intent do to England in last world cup.

 

Kohli deserves all the pass he got for three years as he carried the team on his shoulders for decade in all formats.

 

He again proved why he deserved the pass in world cup.The finals again showed why he bats with some caution, once he get outs there is no body to take team thru. 

 

The reason Kohli inability to power thru spin bowling was three fold, one he never got any platform where in he could attack spinners,if he got out India was not getting anywhere .Plus he has issues attacking the spinners.But others need to chip in to take the pressure off him.

 

Even in his worst years he was still doing okay in most important matches. He was lone ranger against Pakistan in 2021 and again 2022. He had to again absorb not just pressure of falling wickets in 2022 semifinals but also hold one end.

 

 

Pujara and Rahane getting pass has nothing to do with Kohli getting pass. Stop mixing three together. No one asked them to get free pass.

 

 

When any Indian batsman including Jaiswal does something under pressure,we will revisit Kohli's inability to attack spin bowling.

 

Jaiswal should be the opener, he adds LHB to lineup  to counter left arm spinners.

Edited March 27 by putrevus

[vvvslaxman]

17 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You are missing the point. .

 

This intent nonsense you are talking about is from teams who had solid openers and solid finishers.What did intent do to England in last world cup.

 

Kohli deserves all the pass he got for three years as he carried the team on his shoulders for decade in all formats.

 

He again proved why he deserved the pass in world cup.The finals again showed why he bats with some caution, once he get outs there is no body to take team thru. 

 

The reason Kohli inability to power thru spin bowling was three fold, one he never got any platform where in he could attack spinners,if he got out India was not getting anywhere .Plus he has issues attacking the spinners.But others need to chip in to take the pressure off him.

 

Even in his worst years he was still doing okay in most important matches. He was lone ranger against Pakistan in 2021 and again 2022. He had to again absorb not just pressure of falling wickets in 2022 semifinals but also hold one end.

 

 

Pujara and Rahane getting pass has nothing to do with Kohli getting pass. Stop mixing three together. No one asked them to get free pass.

 

 

When any Indian batsman including Jaiswal does something under pressure,we will revisit Kohli's inability to attack spin bowling.

 

Jaiswal should be the opener, he adds LHB to lineup  to counter left arm spinners.

 

There is no three fold. Only one fold. He can't attack them. We have seen at all levels of the period of last 5 years. Let India play without him like they did the Tests against England or 3 tests in Australia. India won 6 out of 8 tests without Kohli. So let us stop pretending Indian cricket will die without Kohli. Not necessarily.In T20s India has played 40 matches without Kohli in the last 2 years. Won 26 of them Lost 11. W/L ratio of 2.363.  India has played 20 matches with Kohli won 13 lost 6 W/L ratio 2.166. Kohli is replaceable in all formats. Infact all the seniors are replaceable. This is not 1990s Tendulkar era. You cannot back a player because he can be good against one team. India can do just fine without any of the seniors. 

Edited March 27 by vvvslaxman

[putrevus]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

There is no three fold. Only one fold. He can't attack them. We have seen at all levels of the period of last 5 years. Let India play without him like they did the Tests against England or 3 tests in Australia. India won 6 out of 8 tests without Kohli. So let us stop pretending Indian cricket will die without Kohli. Not necessarily.In T20s India has played 40 matches without Kohli in the last 2 years. Won 26 of them Lost 11. W/L ratio of 2.363.  India has played 20 matches with Kohli won 13 lost 6 W/L ratio 2.166. Kohli is replaceable in all formats. Infact all the seniors are replaceable. This is not 1990s Tendulkar era. You cannot back a player because he can be good against one team. India can do just fine without any of the seniors. 

No one is pretending Indian cricket will die without Kohli.But your analysis is stupid what if  he scores at 100 SR against spinners, let others score at faster rate, he is going to compensate later.

 

So what happened to India in 2021 and 2022 world t 20s, if India was winning all those t20s without Kohli..

 

They will have to play eventually without any seniors. Problem is your analysis pinning the losses on the one player who did something even in those losses.

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

No one is pretending Indian cricket will die without Kohli.But your analysis is stupid what if  he scores at 100 SR against spinners, let others score at faster rate, he is going to compensate later.

 

So what happened to India in 2021 and 2022 world t 20s, if India was winning all those t20s without Kohli..

 

They will have to play eventually without any seniors. Problem is your analysis pinning the losses on the one player who did something even in those losses.

 

 

 

 

For one thing Kohli faces most number of deliveries. So he must accelerate massively. He cannot rely on others to do the job. Classic case is his slowing down intermittently during his 100 in the last year  IPL play off.  It definitely cost them a few runs. Eventually that proved to be the difference.  In T20s there is no room for milestones. If he is the GOAT in T20 he should play like GOAT not depending on others to do heavy hitting.  It is not pinning the losses on one player. Fact that his presence screws up the attitude and balance. World cup semi final was an example. INdia never had to slow down. Yea Rohit/Rahul sucked. All the more reason Kohli should have accelerated a lot sooner.

[putrevus]

12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

For one thing Kohli faces most number of deliveries. So he must accelerate massively. He cannot rely on others to do the job. Classic case is his slowing down intermittently during his 100 in the last year  IPL play off.  It definitely cost them a few runs. Eventually that proved to be the difference.  In T20s there is no room for milestones. If he is the GOAT in T20 he should play like GOAT not depending on others to do heavy hitting.  It is not pinning the losses on one player. Fact that his presence screws up the attitude and balance. World cup semi final was an example. INdia never had to slow down. Yea Rohit/Rahul sucked. All the more reason Kohli should have accelerated a lot sooner.

As usual you are again going on and on without logic.Nobody cares what he does in IPL .

 

Why would he face most deliveries, he is not the opener.

 

Kohli's role or batting has not changed even in his peak, he will never go bang ,bang from the start that was never his game.

 

So your analysis is stupid, he does not have go bonkers against spin bowlers to be effective for the team.

 

If India can find players who can go bang  bang from ball one , there is no need for any Kohli in the team. 

 

Again another tangent without any logic, how is Kohli presence hurting any balance or attitude.

 

 

Edited March 27 by putrevus

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

As usual you are again going on and on without logic.Nobody cares what he does in IPL .

 

Why would he face most deliveries, he is not the opener.

 

Kohli's role or batting has not changed even in his peak, he will never go bang ,bang from the start that was never his game.

 

So your analysis is stupid, he does not have go bonkers against spin bowlers to be effective for the team.

 

If India can find players who can go bang  bang from ball one , there is no need for any Kohli in the team. 

 

Again another tangent without any logic, how is Kohli presence hurting any balance or attitude.

 

 

 

Attitude matters regardless of level. That is exactly how he plays internationals. If anythign he plays worse. If anyone plays risk free cricket like him they can also accumulate. ALmost all the highlighted areas are red flags lol You are sound like they are not deficiencies. Those are massive deficiencies relying on guys who are new to crease to go after spin  bowling while him "rotating" the strike. Everybody has to go after every type of bowling. There is no excuse for any batsman.

[putrevus]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

 

Attitude matters regardless of level. That is exactly how he plays internationals. If anythign he plays worse. If anyone plays risk free cricket like him they can also accumulate. ALmost all the highlighted areas are red flags lol You are sound like they are not deficiencies. Those are massive deficiencies relying on guys who are new to crease to go after spin  bowling while him "rotating" the strike. Everybody has to go after every type of bowling. There is no excuse for any batsman.

Stop going in a loop. No IPL has no effect when playing for India, otherwise Raina would be greatest t20 batsman for India.I said it many times  Kohli had his chances, if India can find other good replacements, India should go ahead and play them.No one is above the team.

 

Kohli was never a six hitter even in his peak against any spin bowling or left arm spin bowling. He bats at number 3. If he is slowing down the explosive starts given to the team by openers then you have a point.Is he stopping others from hitting boundaries. When others do something even like him then we can talk about his issues.

 

When India is filled with explosive players he is not needed.But if morons like Rohit are leading the team then Kohli is an upgrade over those.

 

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Stop going in a loop. No IPL has no effect when playing for India, otherwise Raina would be greatest t20 batsman for India.I said it many times  Kohli had his chances, if India can find other good replacements, India should go ahead and play them.No one is above the team.

 

Kohli was never a six hitter even in his peak against any spin bowling or left arm spin bowling. He bats at number 3. If he is slowing down the explosive starts given to the team by openers then you have a point.Is he stopping others from hitting boundaries. When others do something even like him then we can talk about his issues.

 

When India is filled with explosive players he is not needed.But if morons like Rohit are leading the team then Kohli is an upgrade over those.

 

I am not oging in loop. You are projecting weakness as strengths by comparing him with others. Since 2020 his middle over strike rate is 126. 435 balls out of 539 balls are either dot balls or singles. 

 

Let me tell you other strike rates in middle overs  since 2020

 

Shreyas iyer 137.81

Rohit sharma 144

SKY 169.62

KL Rahul 141.22

Jadeja 128.22

 

This list has atleast 4 useless players in current scenario. 

 

Guy who is only worse than Kohli is Pandya with a strike rate of 106.92 in middle overs. given the amount of balls he faces India literally stalls as he leaves the risk taking to someone else.

 

 

 

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

I am not oging in loop. You are projecting weakness as strengths by comparing him with others. Since 2020 his middle over strike rate is 126. 435 balls out of 539 balls are either dot balls or singles. 

 

Let me tell you other strike rates in middle overs  since 2020

 

Shreyas iyer 137.81

Rohit sharma 144

SKY 169.62

KL Rahul 141.22

Jadeja 128.22

 

This list has atleast 4 useless players in current scenario. 

 

Guy who is only worse than Kohli is Pandya with a strike rate of 106.92 in middle overs. given the amount of balls he faces India literally stalls as he leaves the risk taking to someone else.

 

 

 

I am not projecting anything. You are again going on in another tangent where you are showing Rohit  and Rahul are great t20 players of spin bowling. Even blind guy will not want Rahul in the team.Rohit by defaul as he is captain is occupying a spot otherwise he would have been kicked out long time back.

 

So stop quoting some idiotic stats which have no meaning.What the hell did KL Rahul or Rohit do with increased SR  against spin in last two t20 world cups. they bat before Kohli.If they did something we would not be talking about India's lack of success.

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

I am not projecting anything. You are again going on in another tangent where you are showing Rohit  and Rahul are great t20 players of spin bowling. Even blind guy will not want Rahul in the team.Rohit by defaul as he is captain is occupying a spot otherwise he would have been kicked out long time back.

 

So stop quoting some idiotic stats which have no meaning.What the hell did KL Rahul or Rohit do with increased SR  against spin in last two t20 world cups. they bat before Kohli.If they did something we would not be talking about India's lack of success.

 

 

That is why i said they are useless. They hurt us. Kohli hurt us in a different way. Teams know he likes to bat long. So they feed him with spinners and takes away valuable runs. You still have no explanation for his low strike rate in the middle phase. All you say is "he is better than X, Y" in other words "He sucks less". No thanks. We can move on with young unit with positive intent. Sure they won't click right away. Don't mind losing with them. But losing with the same unit over and over at a time there are not many good teams in the world sucks.  This is why we want whole sale changes. There should be zero seniors. They are not needed.  When India can win tests without Kohli it should be even more easy to win T20s to win without him.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

That is why i said they are useless. They hurt us. Kohli hurt us in a different way. Teams know he likes to bat long. So they feed him with spinners and takes away valuable runs. You still have no explanation for his low strike rate in the middle phase. All you say is "he is better than X, Y" in other words "He sucks less". No thanks. We can move on with young unit with positive intent. Sure they won't click right away. Don't mind losing with them. But losing with the same unit over and over at a time there are not many good teams in the world sucks.  This is why we want whole sale changes. There should be zero seniors. They are not needed.  When India can win tests without Kohli it should be even more easy to win T20s to win without him.

You are not understanding the simple thing , when wickets fall RR goes down. 

and 

No we want to win with guys like Kohli and not depend on someone who is not even half as good as him.What did young guy likes of Gill do in 50 over world cup.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You are not understanding the simple thing , when wickets fall RR goes down. 

and 

No we want to win with guys like Kohli and not depend on someone who is not even half as good as him.What did young guy likes of Gill do in 50 over world cup.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you say they are not better than Kohli?  How many matches they played?  You should look at it as a team not as individual. If someone plays a specific role well he doens't have to be better than Kohli. He just has to be better htan Kohli for a brief period. We are focusing on "average" in T20 an useless stat if it is not complemented by good strike rate.

[putrevus]

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

 

Why do you say they are not better than Kohli?  How many matches they played?  You should look at it as a team not as individual. If someone plays a specific role well he doens't have to be better than Kohli. He just has to be better htan Kohli for a brief period. We are focusing on "average" in T20 an useless stat if it is not complemented by good strike rate.

Yes we need to look as team, if they do Kohli still has place, even guy like David Malan is playing for England. Kohli is better player than David Malan. 

 

No one is focussing on average, Kohli played his role for most part in t20s and has come up as lone ranger in most important matches.

 

You keep on going on loop as if Kohli is the only  issue which has held back the team which is not the case.

 

Cricket last time I checked is a team game.

 

 

[Vijy]

half the current team is useless. the rest of the half is fading or too raw

[cricketfan28]

can samson solve our spin problems or create new ones, I am not sure about shoonya as well and he is also an old guy .

[vvvslaxman]

Let us look at this IPL our batsmen against left arm spin our achilles heel

 

Shivam Dube  11 balls 26 runs strke rate 236.36

Tilak Varma 14 balls 29 runs strike rate 207.14

Shubman Gill 35 balls 51 runs Strike rate 145.71

KL Rahul 8 balls 11 runs Strike rate 137.50

Samson 18 balls 23 runs  strike rate 127.77

Rohit sharma 17 balls 21 runs Strike rate 123.5

Parag 34 balls 42 runs strike rate 123.52

Virat kohli 33 balls 28 runs   Strike rate 84.84

 

 

 

Comparison

 

Klassen  21 balls 47 runs Strike rate 223.80

 

Kohli is seriously piss poor against left arm spin

Edited April 7 by vvvslaxman

[Ultimate_Game]

Our achilles heels is any kind of spinner. We can't hit Maxwell. Last WT20 we couldn't hit Livingstone. We struggle against Zampa. Santner is a Murali-Warner combo against us 

Don't even know whether to laugh or cry looking at Kohli's stats above, and then he comes up with statements like "I've still got it". Got what exactly? Inability to win a tourney and perform when it really matters? Or the ability to score soft, impactless runs?