Lord Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 6 hours ago, Vijy said: explain why Mongia did zilch in India then, barring one fluke (though great) knock Did I say Mongia is better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 7 hours ago, RajBan said: What Pant has done in terms of batsmanahip in SENA is leaps and bounds ahead of atleast two of our mainstream batsmen in the TEST team if not more. I am not questioning why Pant was played, he played on his own merit to the extent that even when his keeping was not upto the mark he was able to compensate purely as a batter by providing X factor that nobody offered. Pant and Saha both were good enough to play together in the same 11 at the time when others were not performing what they were meant to do given the world class output from either of them. The definition of keeper batsman is all good and dandy till the time they are performing equally in both disciplines(Sanga or Gilchrist). With Pant first and then Jurel next who by the way is a much better keeper than Pant and may match Saha in due course of time, team has got that weapon. At that point of time merit wins and very rightly Saha has been phased out. But the situation was very different 4-5 years back when most keepers were absolutely mugs , and it was right to play Saha(instead of force fitting NPA such as Bharat) who did his job gracefully. Why did Dhoni play ahead of Saha then? Saha was still a much better keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RajBan Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 2 hours ago, Lord said: Why did Dhoni play ahead of Saha then? Saha was still a much better keeper. Dhoni was no mug in Test by any means. Specially when he started his career he was with fresh ideas and also built himself as a leader/captain of the team. However post 2011 , he lost interest in the longer version entirely, selecting players who were not good enough but has backing from strong lobbies and most importantly completely focussed on commerical aspect of the game, IPL etc. He was completely indifferent to the thrashing that we received in away series in SENA and even made arrogant remarks when questioned. He has backing of Srinivasan then as well an ultra strong PR group managed by corporates who invested in him. In many ways Dhoni is guilty of bringing back the 90s era in test cricket where we were decent at home but pathetic outside. Finally you must realize based on the current world cup squad that Indian team is not selected based on merit or character but who has support from politicians and corporate sponsors . Imagine Rinku not in that squad but as a provisional backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 1 hour ago, RajBan said: Dhoni was no mug in Test by any means. Specially when he started his career he was with fresh ideas and also built himself as a leader/captain of the team. However post 2011 , he lost interest in the longer version entirely, selecting players who were not good enough but has backing from strong lobbies and most importantly completely focussed on commerical aspect of the game, IPL etc. He was completely indifferent to the thrashing that we received in away series in SENA and even made arrogant remarks when questioned. He has backing of Srinivasan then as well an ultra strong PR group managed by corporates who invested in him. In many ways Dhoni is guilty of bringing back the 90s era in test cricket where we were decent at home but pathetic outside. Finally you must realize based on the current world cup squad that Indian team is not selected based on merit or character but who has support from politicians and corporate sponsors . Imagine Rinku not in that squad but as a provisional backup. Dhoni was never a great keeper, let alone be better than Saha. Thats the whole point being debated here. Everything else is irrelavant. Dhoni didn't have the PR when he started but still played ahead of SA. Chakdephatte 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 2 minutes ago, Lord said: Dhoni was never a great keeper, let alone be better than Saha. Thats the whole point being debated here. Everything else is irrelavant. Dhoni didn't have the PR when he started but still played ahead of SA. dhoni not a great keeper? Dude sometimes i wish i knew addresses of people here… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 20 hours ago, Gollum said: 2016 Eden vs NZ was polar opposite of a typical Indian pitch. Was a greentop where Bhuvi, Boult, Henry, Shami were unplayable. Many past Indian teams would have lost that test against NZ, Saha was MOTM. 2016 WI was still a decent team, Saha saved us from tricky situations. Then 2017 BGT. And his keeping skills, best of the best. Pant is a different beast but in mid 2010s Saha deserved his selection and was an integral part of the 5 consecutive ICC mace wins. Even DK had big role to play in Eng 2007 and SA 2006. Over a long career such performances will come. Shami has couple of 50s in England too. Saha often batted below Ashwin for a reason. No one is doubting his keeping skills. But pure keeper/ keeper bat stopped being fashionable in 90s. Once Pant did debuted Saha should have been moved on from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 10 minutes ago, Lord said: Even DK had big role to play in Eng 2007 and SA 2006. Over a long career such performances will come. Shami has couple of 50s in England too. Saha often batted below Ashwin for a reason. No one is doubting his keeping skills. But pure keeper/ keeper bat stopped being fashionable in 90s. Once Pant did debuted Saha should have been moved on from. DK was heroic in 2007 Eng, sadly not talked about enough. Agree Saha should have made way for Pant by 2019-20 season, he had his utility before that but Pant is a generational player. Lord 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijy Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 17 hours ago, Lord said: Did I say Mongia is better? that did seem to be your and the other fellow's MO. order is quite clear to me: Pant >> Dhongi > Saha > DK (barring 1-2 series) > Pappu Patel > rest Edited June 2 by Vijy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijy Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 12 hours ago, Gollum said: DK was heroic in 2007 Eng, sadly not talked about enough. Agree Saha should have made way for Pant by 2019-20 season, he had his utility before that but Pant is a generational player. Saha was utility player, Pant was a generational gentleman; in other words, he was GG Edited June 2 by Vijy Gollum and Lord 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Just now, Vijy said: Saha was utility player, Pant was a gen player. orraaaiii vijy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 2 hours ago, Vijy said: that did seem to be your and the other fellow's MO. order is quite clear to me: Pant >> Dhongi > Saha > DK (barring 1-2 series) > Pappu Patel > rest no I didn't even mention Mongia lol Vijy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New guy Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 On 6/1/2024 at 8:00 AM, RajBan said: What Pant has done in terms of batsmanahip in SENA is leaps and bounds ahead of atleast two of our mainstream batsmen in the TEST team if not more. I am not questioning why Pant was played, he played on his own merit to the extent that even when his keeping was not upto the mark he was able to compensate purely as a batter by providing X factor that nobody offered. Pant and Saha both were good enough to play together in the same 11 at the time when others were not performing what they were meant to do given the world class output from either of them. The definition of keeper batsman is all good and dandy till the time they are performing equally in both disciplines(Sanga or Gilchrist). With Pant first and then Jurel next who by the way is a much better keeper than Pant and may match Saha in due course of time, team has got that weapon. At that point of time merit wins and very rightly Saha has been phased out. But the situation was very different 4-5 years back when most keepers were absolutely mugs , and it was right to play Saha(instead of force fitting NPA such as Bharat) who did his job gracefully. Pant is a great keeper, people only remember his initial mistakes when he was nervous and Dhoni fans were literally booing him. People also forget that Dhoni was making similar mistakes when he joined the team, he was unable to keep against Kumble and there were talks of dropping him. But Pant is as safe any one else today and a pretty athletic keeper. Vijy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RajBan Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 On 6/3/2024 at 2:42 PM, New guy said: Pant is a great keeper, people only remember his initial mistakes when he was nervous and Dhoni fans were literally booing him. People also forget that Dhoni was making similar mistakes when he joined the team, he was unable to keep against Kumble and there were talks of dropping him. But Pant is as safe any one else today and a pretty athletic keeper. While Pant has improved a lot but he is by no means a great keeper. Jurel on the other hand has shown pretty solid technique to be a great keeper. He is ahead of Pant in matters to behind the stump with much less international exposure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New guy Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 (edited) 10 hours ago, RajBan said: While Pant has improved a lot but he is by no means a great keeper. Jurel on the other hand has shown pretty solid technique to be a great keeper. He is ahead of Pant in matters to behind the stump with much less international exposure. Lmao, in tests pant was way better than what Jurel showed in recent series. Jurel had some basic elementary missed chances. People really have short term memories but for 2 years pant outkeeped the opposite wicket keeper in every single series and had some astonishing catches and stumpings which very few keepers can do. Edited June 5 by New guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RajBan Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 18 hours ago, New guy said: Lmao, in tests pant was way better than what Jurel showed in recent series. Jurel had some basic elementary missed chances. People really have short term memories but for 2 years pant outkeeped the opposite wicket keeper in every single series and had some astonishing catches and stumpings which very few keepers can do. At this point I have to smile at what you are saying and leave it at that. Pant was simply out of place as far as keeping is concerned in his first 3-4 series. There were reports he was working with coaching team and Saha given his lack of basics. On the contrary Jurel has been steady since first couple of tests itself. There is no comparison here. Jurel is a far superior keeper specially when compared early days in international cricket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New guy Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 3 minutes ago, RajBan said: At this point I have to smile at what you are saying and leave it at that. Pant was simply out of place as far as keeping is concerned in his first 3-4 series. There were reports he was working with coaching team and Saha given his lack of basics. On the contrary Jurel has been steady since first couple of tests itself. There is no comparison here. Jurel is a far superior keeper specially when compared early days in international cricket. Once again, the guy was literally being booed by his own fans while still a teenager. Any player will make mistakes then. What you guys ignore is that he was an outstanding keeper in IPL and domestic before making debut for India and was making no mistakes, so much for lack of basics. Jurel was not being booed by his own loser fans everytime he stepped foot in a cricket field. And Jurel missing easy catches makes him far superior, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RajBan Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 9 hours ago, New guy said: Once again, the guy was literally being booed by his own fans while still a teenager. Any player will make mistakes then. What you guys ignore is that he was an outstanding keeper in IPL and domestic before making debut for India and was making no mistakes, so much for lack of basics. Jurel was not being booed by his own loser fans everytime he stepped foot in a cricket field. And Jurel missing easy catches makes him far superior, lol Pant was far from being a decent keeper specially against spinners in his first 24 months let alone outstanding and I am putting it mildly. Jurel compared to him is ready specially his keeping against all types of bowling is already pretty matured. I do agree it is not a good thing for fans to demotivate a 19 yr old but the fact remains he started as a batsman keeper as opposed to a keeper batsman with making significant strides on his keeping abilities post his debut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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