Is Babar Azam the most overrated batsman since 2000?

[Dil Dil India]

11 minutes ago, putrevus said:

They were many idiots on ICF who were saying KL Rahul was kept out of the team by Kohli as he was jealous of his talent.

 

Babar is an upgrade over this gutless idiot.Babar himself has no guts but he still is an upgrade.

How is Gobar an upgrade? I hate to defend Kela but he's a rich man's Babar.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

How is Gobar an upgrade? I hate to defend Kela but he's a rich man's Babar.

I don't think so.

[Dil Dil India]

Just now, putrevus said:

I don't think so.

You are entitled to what you think, but Kela has MULTIPLE test tons in SA and Eng, test tons in Aus, SL, WI. Guy has game. Gobar's test record does not compare. In T20s I think peak Kela certainly has more hitting ability than Gobar.

[Ultimate_Game]

3 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

This was never true in T20 => He played amazing innings in knockouts of World T20 2014 and World T20 2016 and was MOTS in both IIRC. It was only really in ODIs that this was kinda true but even there he had a CT 2013 Final performance; only place you could really pin him was WC 2015 SF when India were chasing a big score and WC 2019 SF vs NZ where NZ were extremely lucky with conditions. With his WC 2023 SF and F knocks, he even put those ghosts to rest.

 

Would like to disagree a bit. Wt20 2014 was a pretty good innings and was more due to Yuvraj's failing we lost that match. However, 2016 was an average one. That was flattish Wankhede pitch with 60m boundaries. We should've scored more given the start we had. But agree that our openers, especially were more to blame there.

 

However in ODIs he hasn't made any difference or impact. Even in 2023 WC it was Shreyas Iyer's innings which made the difference. Kohli's innings was the slowest one from our team  and if Iyer hadn't gone after NZ that day, we would've scored 330-340 as usual and NZ would've chased the total on that Wankhede pitch the same way WI did in 2016 WT20. And as for the final, surely you can't call that innings a good innings. WC 2015, 2017 CT, and WC 2019 (the worst one IMO) are others. Also, innings like WT2022 semi and WT2021 didn't help the cause that much.

[Dil Dil India]

Just now, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Would like to disagree a bit. Wt20 2014 was a pretty good innings and was more due to Yuvraj's failing we lost that match. However, 2016 was an average one. That was flattish Wankhede pitch with 60m boundaries. We should've scored more given the start we had. But agree that our openers, especially were more to blame there.

 

However in ODIs he hasn't made any difference or impact. Even in 2023 WC it was Shreyas Iyer's innings which made the difference. Kohli's innings was the slowest one from our team  and if Iyer hadn't gone after NZ that day, we would've scored 330-340 as usual and NZ would've chased the total on that Wankhede pitch the same way WI did in 2016 WT20. And as for the final, surely you can't call that innings a good innings. WC 2015, 2017 CT, and WC 2019 (the worst one IMO) are others. Also, innings like WT2022 semi and WT2021 didn't help the cause that much.

W2014 SF vs a chase vs RSA; I don't mean just the final; 2016 I wouldn't call it average per se, our catching was horrible in that game. Also let's not forget his innings vs Aus which was a virtual QF for us.

I'm not saying he's made the most impact in WC knockouts but with his WC 2023 SF+F performances, we can at least say that he has performed in them; not necessarily the best but it's not a knock against him anymore...I'd even add WC 2011 F performance by a young Kohli was worth its weight in gold and quite underrated as if he had got out early it could have been different....CT 2013 F was a good knock if you go away from WCs as you mentioned CT 2017F (CT 2017 SF was vs SL so I'll ignore that). 

I don't think his WC 2023F innings was particularly bad; he had to be circumspect and Kela was sucking away all the momentum. I don't fully disagree with you, fair points but think Kohli is better than he is given credit for in knockouts even if he doesn't have a Dhoni/Gambhir WC 2011F like innings in a won game.

[Ultimate_Game]

4 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

W2014 SF vs a chase vs RSA; I don't mean just the final; 2016 I wouldn't call it average per se, our catching was horrible in that game. Also let's not forget his innings vs Aus which was a virtual QF for us.

I'm not saying he's made the most impact in WC knockouts but with his WC 2023 SF+F performances, we can at least say that he has performed in them; not necessarily the best but it's not a knock against him anymore...I'd even add WC 2011 F performance by a young Kohli was worth its weight in gold and quite underrated as if he had got out early it could have been different....CT 2013 F was a good knock if you go away from WCs as you mentioned CT 2017F (CT 2017 SF was vs SL so I'll ignore that). 

I don't think his WC 2023F innings was particularly bad; he had to be circumspect and Kela was sucking away all the momentum. I don't fully disagree with you, fair points but think Kohli is better than he is given credit for in knockouts even if he doesn't have a Dhoni/Gambhir WC 2011F like innings in a won game.

 

My main point is that you're considered the GOAT and the best batsman of this generation, then you should've done better. Kohli's track record would be good for a good to  decent batsman but is that track record really good enough for a GOAT or a generational player? That's the point where I disagree, i.e. Kohli has been good but there's nothing where it suggests he was the GOAT player or a batsman with "nothing left to prove". You can't be the best batsman going around when you've had no impactful innings at the biggest stages  and you were out-batted twice by someone like Travis Head at the big stage (WTC Final and WC 2023).

 

If someone says Kohli is a pretty good batsman and could've done better in big matches I would be fully aligned. I have issue with the GOAT and anointing him "King" when he hasn't managed to make a difference at the biggest stage. That's the point I disagree with as for me Kohli simply hasn't made the difference which a GOAT player should.

[Dil Dil India]

9 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

My main point is that you're considered the GOAT and the best batsman of this generation, then you should've done better. Kohli's track record would be good for a good to  decent batsman but is that track record really good enough for a GOAT or a generational player? That's the point where I disagree, i.e. Kohli has been good but there's nothing where it suggests he was the GOAT player or a batsman with "nothing left to prove". You can't be the best batsman going around when you've had no impactful innings at the biggest stages  and you were out-batted twice by someone like Travis Head at the big stage (WTC Final and WC 2023).

 

If someone says Kohli is a pretty good batsman and could've done better in big matches I would be fully aligned. I have issue with the GOAT and anointing him "King" when he hasn't managed to make a difference at the biggest stage. That's the point I disagree with as for me Kohli simply hasn't made the difference which a GOAT player should.

I think it depends on how much you want to nitpick and how you want to see it. In summary, Kohli has won a CT (with a contribution in the final), has a match winnings SF in another CT (2017), was MOTS in 2 T20 WCs with performances in SF and F in 2014 and SF and virtual QF in 2016. In WCs he has a WC century vs Pak (probably most pressure game for Indian players) along with being the most prolific batter of the WC 2023 with a match winning 100 in the SF and a 50 in the F and I agree he wasn't the best player in those 2 games. In addition to his overall body of work (Asia Cup 183 vs Pak, chasing 320 vs SL inside 40 overs in Aus etc), he is definitely in GOAT contention in LOIs. Otherwise by the same yardstick even Tendulkar isnt in GOAT contention for ODIs and that doesnt sit well with most people.

 

WTC Final is test cricket and no one there would argue that Kohli is GOAT in tests.

 

Back to topic though we agree Gobar is mediocre.

Edited June 12, 2024 by Dil Dil India

[Ultimate_Game]

13 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

I think it depends on how much you want to nitpick and how you want to see it. In summary, Kohli has won a CT (with a contribution in the final), has a match winnings SF in another CT (2017), was MOTS in 2 T20 WCs with performances in SF and F in 2014 and SF and virtual QF in 2016. In WCs he has a WC century vs Pak (probably most pressure game for Indian players) along with being the most prolific batter of the WC 2023 with a match winning 100 in the SF and a 50 in the F and I agree he wasn't the best player in those 2 games. In addition to his overall body of work (Asia Cup 183 vs Pak, chasing 320 vs SL inside 40 overs in Aus etc), he is definitely in GOAT contention in LOIs. Otherwise by the same yardstick even Tendulkar isnt in GOAT contention for ODIs and that doesnt sit well with most people.

 

WTC Final is test cricket and no one there would argue that Kohli is GOAT in tests.

 

Back to topic though we agree Gobar is mediocre.

 

Lot of these knocks came in league matches or inconsequential games (320 against SL where we couldn't even reach the finals). The CT 2017 semis was against B'desh! It's similar to Rohit's 2015 QF 100 against B'desh. His whole body of work looks good when you bring in league games, Asia Cups where TBH over the last decade we've been so much better than the other Asian teams, or bi-laterals. When it has really mattered, he hasn't been stellar. What's the point of being the best Test batsman and you were a no-show in 2 WTC finals? In Tests Steve Smith is the GOAT of this generation - better average, and better big match performances.

 

I'm sorry but you have to have at least one tourney defining innings when it matters across one format. If someone like Head can have 2, why not one from the so called King? Kohli does under-perform in pressure matches and that's why can't really be GOAT. Somebody like Raina OTOH was amazing in knock outs. The guy really showed up. And Gambhir's performances in finals was legendary. Kohli is the opposite of these kind of players, and no harm in acknowledging the same.

 

And agreed that Babar simply doesn't belong in the conversation.

Edited June 12, 2024 by Ultimate_Game

[Dil Dil India]

13 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Lot of these knocks came in league matches or inconsequential games (320 against SL where we couldn't even reach the finals). The CT 2017 semis was against B'desh! It's similar to Rohit's 2015 QF 100 against B'desh. His whole body of work looks good when you bring in league games, Asia Cups where TBH over the last decade we've been so much better than the other Asian teams, or bi-laterals. When it has really mattered, he hasn't been stellar. What's the point of being the best Test batsman and you were a no-show in 2 WTC finals? In Tests Steve Smith is the GOAT of this generation - better average, and better big match performances.

 

I'm sorry but you have to have at least one tourney defining innings when it matters across one format. If someone like Head can have 2, why not one from the so called King? Kohli does under-perform in pressure matches and that's why can't really be GOAT. Somebody like Raina OTOH was amazing in knock outs. The guy really showed up. And Gambhir's performances in finals was legendary. Kohli is the opposite of these kind of players, and no harm in acknowledging the same.

 

And agreed that Babar simply doesn't belong in the conversation.

again, tests are irrelevant to this convo- nobody argues that Kohli is GOAT here and regarding 2 WTC finals in particular (and we can talk about those WTC finals in more detail but in any case tests are irrelevant).

If we talk about T20s => MOS IN 2 T20 WCs, Matching winning performance in 2014 SF and should have been match winning F performance but not meant to be thanks to Yuvraj, great but losing performances in 2016 SF along with matching winning performance vs Aus in virtual QF. I would say that's more than good enough not counting epics like Melbourne 2022 in non knockouts.

 

ODIs- I agree performing in 2015 WC SF or 2019 WC F would have been better and more befitting and there are better players in knockouts but in the end he has a WC win (where he didn't do much albeit a small role in final), good matching winning performance in WC semi 2023 with a fifty in the WC F 2023 - let's not forget conditions were a bit weird in the F. And in CT, he has a match winning performance in CT 2013 Final - let's not forget. CT 2017 SF was vs BD true but then he has smashed Pak far more times than we can count if we hold than 2017 F against him.

 

Kohli failed in 3 big chases that stand out - WC 2015F, 2019 WC SF and CT F and we can hold that against him for sure but he has covered a few holes with his WC 2023 performance. Let's hope he can pull off a tournament win here.

Edited June 12, 2024 by Dil Dil India

[raki05]

Yes most overhyped batsmen in the history of cricket, guy doesn’t even have any impact inning even in biletral… lodey ka king.

[Dil Dil India]

22 hours ago, raki05 said:

Yes most overhyped batsmen in the history of cricket, guy doesn’t even have any impact inning even in biletral… lodey ka king.

guy called heddie thinks he's GOAT. Dabur fangirls are annoying af

[tapandrun]

Never in favour of comparison bt incase there are Pak batters like Inzi, Yousuf, Anwar would say they were match winners on their batting itself against any kind of bowling.

 

Babar is no match to these Pak batters, people were critiquing Kolhi that he played in batter friendly era and there were not as many top bowlers around the world, then Baber mostly played against B/C/D teams out of his 19 OdIs tons 7 are in Pak 5 in UAE. Of which 10 are against WI SL Zim and 3 against Aus. Most top batters would have not played these teams those many games.

 

In 2020s he is playing cricket of 90s, he is not a top tier batter of this gen but a good batter.  Avgs 46 in test with just 9 tons of which 6 are in Pak.

PCB has pushed all the resources towards him and he plays cricket at his own pace.

 

Seen him struggle against good pace (Wood, Archer etc) and spin of any kind, if you leave out Pak's bowling their batting has no match winners as we saw WC-2023 once their bowling losses the wheels their batting can not pull it off. Fakar is the guy who can take the game away single handedly.

 

His T20I averages are so  high because he takes no risks even Rizwan who would be a tier 2/3 batter in normal condition meaning some other team is their top batter and averages ~50 because they play risk free cricket and hardly try to hit the ball, they rely on some1 down the order play 15-20 ball 30-35 runs innings and then their bowling to do it for them.

 

 

   

Edited June 13, 2024 by tapandrun

[deathmonger]

You have to understand one thing - Pakistan doesn’t really have much going for it. Their men’s cricket team, while being mid is still the best thing in their country. Other sports, arts, economy is a big ZERO.

 

Since cricket is all they have, they overhype their best players a lot.

 

Both Babar and Shaheen are good, not great players with over inflated stats due to playing weaker teams.

 

Both of them are decentish in all three formats, being better at white ball. They would make real good complementary players to a true great but are not leader level.

 

KL, Rahane, Dhawan etc have had more impact than Babar in various formats.

 

Siraj, Irfan Pathan etc have had more impact than Shaheen in various formats.

 

 

[Chaos]

Duhhhhhhh 

[Ultimate_Game]

On 6/12/2024 at 10:44 AM, Dil Dil India said:

How is Gobar an upgrade? I hate to defend Kela but he's a rich man's Babar.

 

Comparing KL and Babar is like debating which shyte smells less bad. At the end of the day it's still shyte. They're both useless and unlikely to have an impact. Both have a decent sample size and things are not gonna change - they are what they are.

[Dil Dil India]

12 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Comparing KL and Babar is like debating which shyte smells less bad. At the end of the day it's still shyte. They're both useless and unlikely to have an impact. Both have a decent sample size and things are not gonna change - they are what they are.

Agreed. KL gets nowhere near the hype Dabur gets though but that's understandable considering nobody else in Pak knows how to hold a bat.

[putrevus]

On 6/12/2024 at 10:53 AM, Dil Dil India said:

You are entitled to what you think, but Kela has MULTIPLE test tons in SA and Eng, test tons in Aus, SL, WI. Guy has game. Gobar's test record does not compare. In T20s I think peak Kela certainly has more hitting ability than Gobar.

This guy's avg is 34 after 50 tests.He is the most useless player who has ever played 50 tests for India.

KL Rahul for peiod of 18 months in 2018-2019 stunk in five different continents barely averaging under 10.He was removed from the team after his debacle in WI in 2019.

 

Only to resurface again in 2021 .You keep pointing about his 100s in Eng and SA forgetting all his stinkers in the same series where he scored those 100s.India keep touring other countries more than team like Pakistan that is why he lucked out into scoring some 100s.This POS should have been done with Indian team in 2019 itself. 

 

Babar is on another level compared to this useless fellow.

Edited June 15, 2024 by putrevus

[putrevus]

On 6/12/2024 at 12:11 PM, raki05 said:

Yes most overhyped batsmen in the history of cricket, guy doesn’t even have any impact inning even in biletral… lodey ka king.

He did not call himself a king. It is Pakistanis and their media who in their desperation to be relevant called gave him nick name.

 

He plays for weak and useless team.He is best of their lot. 

[New guy]

Entered the Asia Cup T20 2022 as the no.1 ranked T20 batter in the world and wasn't even the top 15 run scorers of the tournament.

Entered the ICC T20 WC 2022 as the no.1 ranked T20 batter in the world and wasn't even the top 15 run scorers of the tournament.

Entered the ICC ODI WC 2023 as the no.1 ranked ODI batter in the world and isn't even the top 20 run scorers of this tournament.

And even in the Asia Cup ODI 2023 , if you remove this greatness' pantheon entering 150 knock against Nepal, he scored 56 runs in 3 remaining games against India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
 

And now in T20 WC 2024 we can all see his performance. Just shows how much rankings and stat paddings count on the big stage.

[Dil Dil India]

10 hours ago, putrevus said:

This guy's avg is 34 after 50 tests.He is the most useless player who has ever played 50 tests for India.

KL Rahul for peiod of 18 months in 2018-2019 stunk in five different continents barely averaging under 10.He was removed from the team after his debacle in WI in 2019.

 

Only to resurface again in 2021 .You keep pointing about his 100s in Eng and SA forgetting all his stinkers in the same series where he scored those 100s.India keep touring other countries more than team like Pakistan that is why he lucked out into scoring some 100s.This POS should have been done with Indian team in 2019 itself. 

 

Babar is on another level compared to this useless fellow.

Gobar has 9 test tons, 3 if you exclude Rawalpindi and Karachi where England were scoring 500 runs in 75 overs....he averages 38 if you remove those 2 grounds. You can worship him if you want but don't expect others to join in. No fan of Kl far from it but if you want to fangirl Babar then good for you.