Indian all rounders option for #6-8 in ODIs

[Nikhil_cric]

20 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

They also had capable bowlers too, surprisingly with ability to bat.

2003 ODI WC...they had batting till 10. Lee & Hogg were capable batters.

 

Even now...Starc & Cummins are handy with bat. Lyon & Hazelwood too are better batters than our bowlers.

But they weren't selected for their batting.

 

McGrath, Gillespie and Lee were the best white ball fast bowlers they had and Brad Hogg was the best spinner after Warne in the entire country. 

 

Only time they picked someone at 8 for his batting was Faulkner in 2015

 

 

 

[Majestic]

3 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

How did you judge Rinku isn't ready ?

Has played only 2 ODI's so far, that too in SA...

In T20's he has exemplary record considering the position he bats. If we can't back even a player like that then I am worried that we have bigger problems.

 

Both Pant & KL are limited in their own ways...Pant's hitting arc is limited while KL is mentally limited. Also KL is 32 already and yet he is not an established player, his time is gone and need is to look at the younger players.

 

If a player who is playing for 7-8 years yet isn't able to settle himself in the formats despite multiple opportunities. It's safe to assume they don't have in them to become a successful international cricketer. Even Shreyas has only 2-3 years left unless he really establishes himself.

That's nonsense. Rinku has done nothing to merit a spot in ODI team and neither does he provides multiple options with bowl. He first needs to fight out for a spot in T20s. At the moment, he lost his form in T20s itself in recent times. Form is temporary so he deserves to be backed more but for ODIs, he has quite some time to go. There are many other proven performers sitting ahead of him and waiting for their chances like Sanju Samson and Riyan Parag.

 

KL Rahul is an established ODI player, there is no argument against him in this format. This discussion is for ODIs only. Pant also was much more equipped in ODIs before the accident and Samson has performed whenever given a chance. These guys are ahead in reckoning. Riyan scored lot of runs in domestic and seems a perfect choice for ODIs with his additional dimension of bowling. I have nothing against Rinku but if we ignore these guys and put Rinku ahead in ODIs, that would send a false narrative in the team.

[prudent_kreeda]

On 7/27/2024 at 10:27 PM, Majestic said:

In the ODI format, 6 bowlers and 8 batsman are important as it is a longer format and you expect batting depth as well as extra bowling option( can't go with 5 bowlers for 50 overs).

 

Hence, we need to look at batsman who can bowl 4-5 overs at #6. We would also need pure all rounder at 7 and a bowling A/R at 8.

 

What are the options we have that can be utilised best keeping the longer format in mind?

 

#6 spot or above (batsman who can bowl 4-5 overs):- Riyan Parag, Venkatesh Iyer, Hardik Pandya, Abhishek Sharma

 

#7 spot( quickfire run scorer and bowl more overs):- Hardik Pandya (if he is fully fit), Axar Patel, Ravindra Jadeja, Washington Sundar

 

#8 spot :- Axar Patel, Washington Sundar, Harshit Rana, Akashdeep 

 

The likes of Dube, Tewatia don't cut for ODIs in my opinion.

#6 - As of now - Pandya ,( Nitish Reddy for future) , Parag (May be Parag for 2-3 overs)

#7 -Axar,

#8 - Washy , Harshit Rana 

 

[singhvivek141]

21 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

But they weren't selected for their batting.

 

McGrath, Gillespie and Lee were the best white ball fast bowlers they had and Brad Hogg was the best spinner after Warne in the entire country. 

 

Only time they picked someone at 8 for his batting was Faulkner in 2015

 

 

 

I agree,

But somehow it seems Australian bowlers take batting more seriously than the others.

Warne, Lee, Bichel, Rieffel, Fleming, Johnson, Gillespie, Hauritz, Ryan Harris, Lyon, Starc, Cummins you name them...each and every one of them were capable of batting.

 

McGrath & McGill were exceptions.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

I agree,

But somehow it seems Australian bowlers take batting more seriously than the others.

Warne, Lee, Bichel, Rieffel, Fleming, Johnson, Gillespie, Hauritz, Ryan Harris, Lyon, Starc, Cummins you name them...each and every one of them were capable of batting.

 

McGrath & McGill were exceptions.

 

Actually I'll have to slightly disagree with this.

 

If you look at their ODI records, most of them average 12 or 13 and strike in the 70's.

 

Bichel averaged 20 but they replaced him the moment they found a better bowler despite his batting. 

 

Lee and Johnson are the only ones who struck at 80+ and averaged above 15. Even Starc doesn't have that. 

 

Our bowlers usually average 8 and 9 instead of 12-14.

 

It's pretty insignificant and makes no real difference 

 

 

[cowboysfan]

Parags development is the key or they will bring back Jadeja.

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Actually I'll have to slightly disagree with this.

 

If you look at their ODI records, most of them average 12 or 13 and strike in the 70's.

 

Bichel averaged 20 but they replaced him the moment they found a better bowler despite his batting. 

 

Lee and Johnson are the only ones who struck at 80+ and averaged above 15. Even Starc doesn't have that. 

 

Our bowlers usually average 8 and 9 instead of 12-14.

 

It's pretty insignificant and makes no real difference 

 

 

At no 10-11...even a quick 10-12 runs can make a lot of difference.

 

Srinath & Kumble were very useful with bat, but Venkatesh Prasad, Abey Kuruvilla, Ashish Kapoor, Harvinder Singh, Debasish Mohanty were duds with the bat. Plus we had keepers like Nayan Mongia, no better than a tailender.

 

During Sachin's captaincy there was a time when he has to publicly acknowledge that Indian tailenders are very weak and he expect them to atleast contribute 8-10 runs with bat.

 

There was such a breath of fresh air when Agarkar debuted in 1998, someone who could hold the bat and make runs. Then Zak came in and he too showd the importance of runs at the back end. 2002 Netwest Trophy.

[Nikhil_cric]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

At no 10-11...even a quick 10-12 runs can make a lot of difference.

 

Srinath & Kumble were very useful with bat, but Venkatesh Prasad, Abey Kuruvilla, Ashish Kapoor, Harvinder Singh, Debasish Mohanty were duds with the bat. Plus we had keepers like Nayan Mongia, no better than a tailender.

 

During Sachin's captaincy there was a time when he has to publicly acknowledge that Indian tailenders are very weak and he expect them to atleast contribute 8-10 runs with bat.

 

There was such a breath of fresh air when Agarkar debuted in 1998, someone who could hold the bat and make runs. Then Zak came in and he too showd the importance of runs at the back end. 2002 Netwest Trophy.

 

Yes it's good to get 4-5 extra runs from each of the tail.   But we should avoid selecting just for that. We were playing Shardul Thakur at #8 for his supposed batting ability.  While Shami sat on the bench.  

 

That's the kind of selection I'm against.  Select your best 4 bowlers and get them to average at least 13 with the bat instead of 7's and 8's.    

 

For me the real difference is #6 and #7 . Australia had Maxwell and Inglis instead of SKY and Jadeja.   

[putrevus]

On 7/28/2024 at 8:06 AM, singhvivek141 said:

They also had capable bowlers too, surprisingly with ability to bat.

2003 ODI WC...they had batting till 10. Lee & Hogg were capable batters.

 

Even now...Starc & Cummins are handy with bat. Lyon & Hazelwood too are better batters than our bowlers.

Spot on,They had Andrew Symonds who was an allrounder. If not for his semifinal knock of 91 that 2003 Aussies would not have reached Finals.

 

They even had Andy Bichel who batted with Bevan to defeat NZ when it looked like they were going to lose. Lee could bat too.

 

India on other hand in 2023 after Kohli got out in 28th with score of 148/4 could not add even 100 runs in 22 overs.

 

It is so sad that Indian batting even in 2023 ended with Kohli. Bowlers should able to handle bat, you cannot have 4 number 10s or 11s.

 

Cummins with bat staying at one end won the match against Afghanistan or they would not have reached even semifinals.

 

That is why I don't want to see an idiot like KL Rahul ever playing for India again.He will never do well under pressure.

Edited July 29, 2024 by putrevus

[tapandrun]

Assuming Ind is playing full strength side then:

1-Rohit -- he is captain

2-Gill --VC and seen as all format player

3-Kolhi

4-S.Iyer

5-KL/Pant --Wkt-keeper

6-Pandya -- if available becomes automatic selection

7-Axar and some other option -- Jadeja/ Parag

8-Rana and some other option --Thakur/Yudhvir

9-Kuldeep

10-Shami and Some other option-- Siraj/Singh/Mukesh/Avesh/Khaleel

11-Bhumrah

 

So realistically speaking its between #7/8 till no. 6 everything looks like they are not going to change,  On 7 Axar has shown he can bat and get some quick runs its either him or Jadeja. Sundar lacks hitting ability and is an off-spinner, do not think there is any place for specialist off spinner in playing 11 these days unless they are mystery spinner.

The next option is parag who is a batter first then a bowler. So #7 is kind of already taken.

 

now it leaves to just #8 its between Rana / Thakur /Yudhvir/D.Chahar(TM has habit of recycling players over and over again), there is not much scope in the team. Till the top for are just single skilled player there is not much one can do, and till 4 there are no floater they can only play in those 4 spots so leaves a v.small window at 8, which is either Rana or Mayank if they turn out to be good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StraightDrive26]

Parag's bowling does not matter unless he starts scoring runs. In the past we had Sehwag, Sachin, Yuvraj, Raina and Ganguly who bowled but all of them were consistent bats. I really like Parag as a batter who can bowl but he cannot take years to develop as a bat. India cannot afford that cannot carry someone just for his bowling. India need to seriously think what they are doing with Washington Sundar. He is a reliable bat who can give you good control with the ball in the middle overs. We can't mess up such talent who has already proven. I thought Indian management have come far away from that phase. Having a huge pool of players does not mean we ignore already available good ones. 

 

Axar is a given with his current form in both white ball formats and so is Pandya. I would reserve my judgement of Parag till he actually starts scoring runs. His bowling is a bonus but we all know he is not in the team for that. He does not have years to shine like he did with RR, we once did it for Rohit but that was because he showed immense promise at the highest level. I hope he gets an extended run in the team but unless he starts scoring runs, I would not start pencilling him in the playing XI yet just for his bowling. I would still keep Sundar ahead of Parag at the moment. As a batter and as a bowler Sundar is ahead but probably not ahead in terms of management backing. Since his debut he hasn't been backed by the management like they have done with some other players. Virat liked Sundar and saw something in him which is the reason he backed him quite a bit but once Virat was replaced as captain, Sundar's international appearances has dwindled. Sad but hope he doesn't get lost like a few before him. 

[prudent_kreeda]

7 hours ago, StraightDrive26 said:

Parag's bowling does not matter unless he starts scoring runs. In the past we had Sehwag, Sachin, Yuvraj, Raina and Ganguly who bowled but all of them were consistent bats. I really like Parag as a batter who can bowl but he cannot take years to develop as a bat. India cannot afford that cannot carry someone just for his bowling. India need to seriously think what they are doing with Washington Sundar. He is a reliable bat who can give you good control with the ball in the middle overs. We can't mess up such talent who has already proven. I thought Indian management have come far away from that phase. Having a huge pool of players does not mean we ignore already available good ones. 

 

Axar is a given with his current form in both white ball formats and so is Pandya. I would reserve my judgement of Parag till he actually starts scoring runs. His bowling is a bonus but we all know he is not in the team for that. He does not have years to shine like he did with RR, we once did it for Rohit but that was because he showed immense promise at the highest level. I hope he gets an extended run in the team but unless he starts scoring runs, I would not start pencilling him in the playing XI yet just for his bowling. I would still keep Sundar ahead of Parag at the moment. As a batter and as a bowler Sundar is ahead but probably not ahead in terms of management backing. Since his debut he hasn't been backed by the management like they have done with some other players. Virat liked Sundar and saw something in him which is the reason he backed him quite a bit but once Virat was replaced as captain, Sundar's international appearances has dwindled. Sad but hope he doesn't get lost like a few before him. 

 

Do not think selectors picking Parag for his bowling . The need is for a proper bat among the top 5 in short format who can be your 6th bowling option with few overs of bowling. That helps in lengthening the batting depth which is a must now for short format. 

It is the batting potential which is compelling selectors to back him. Think there is no doubt about his aggressive game against spin. Also has the ability to hit back of length deliveries to boundary which are the preferred stock ball for bowlers (Klassen has become a beast due to this shot ) . Though has shown ability to hit pacers too , but that needs further development . So should not expect miracles right away - he is a WIP both in batting and in bowling .

My hunch is he will come good in ODI sooner than may be in T20 as he can play in different gears  & ODI provides to take some balls to settle in.

Positive thing is ,he is really putting in lot of effort now into his game and feel Gambhir will back him all the way. 

Worth backing in short formats.

[Majestic]

Parag will be more useful in ODIs I believe. In T20s, Dube can do fine as well. Remember, these are SL wickets. His bowling will be tested overseas or even at home on flatter decks.