Ravindra Jadeja v MS Dhoni as test batsmen

[Majestic]

5 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

But if you do that, you cannot compare batsmen batting at two different positions. Longer innings are more probable higher up.

 

Its not a batsmen's fault if other batsmen collapse leaving him stranded. He has to bat accordingly and may even have to throw his wicket towards the end going for big shots. Numbers can't tell everything.

In a way, a better batsman or the batsman likely to play longer innings does get promoted up the order. Around the mid-2010s, Ashwin was batting at 6 at one point, Saha at 7 and Jadeja at 8. Jadeja was just not giving that confidence up the order then and hence he was moved below Ashwin and Saha. He managed a lot of not outs which were useless at that spot because he was failing up the order.

 

Stokes or Pant bat at 6 but they don't have many not outs and their runs per inning would not be much lower than their averages but in case of Jadeja, it takes a big dip fom 36 to 29. It does the same with Imran khan. Such not outs are useless and gives a misleading idea about the player.

 

Now if a player has scored 50 or more and is not out then this is well deserved. He made vital contributions in that game and deserves a boost in his stats. If a player scores less than 50 but it is a match saving knock like Ashwin-Vihari's blockathan in Sydney, those knocks also deserve them a boost. But those useless 20 and 30 not out in inconsequential games and situation means nothing and gives undue advantage of boosting a player's stat even though the contribution is very less. 

[Lord]

4 minutes ago, Majestic said:

In a way, a better batsman or the batsman likely to play longer innings does get promoted up the order. Around the mid-2010s, Ashwin was batting at 6 at one point, Saha at 7 and Jadeja at 8. Jadeja was just not giving that confidence up the order then and hence he was moved below Ashwin and Saha. He managed a lot of not outs which were useless at that spot because he was failing up the order.

 

Stokes or Pant bat at 6 but they don't have many not outs and their runs per inning would not be much lower than their averages but in case of Jadeja, it takes a big dip fom 36 to 29. It does the same with Imran khan. Such not outs are useless and gives a misleading idea about the player.

 

Now if a player has scored 50 or more and is not out then this is well deserved. He made vital contributions in that game and deserves a boost in his stats. If a player scores less than 50 but it is a match saving knock like Ashwin-Vihari's blockathan in Sydney, those knocks also deserve them a boost. But those useless 20 and 30 not out in inconsequential games and situation means nothing and gives undue advantage of boosting a player's stat even though the contribution is very less. 

 

At 7, Dhoni's absolute average is 27 compared to Jadeja's 31. Both decent sample sizes. Stokes hasnt played much there. Even by that criteria hes okay

 

The 20 and 30 you are talking about stop there because of other batsmen falling. A player higher up won't have that problem.He can even pace his innings as he wants instead of being forced by the situation to bat a certain way.

 

What you are suggesting needs an innings by innings analysis not general view.

[Old guy]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

At 7, Dhoni's absolute average is 27 compared to Jadeja's 31. Both decent sample sizes. Stokes hasnt played much there. Even by that criteria hes okay

 

The 20 and 30 you are talking about stop there because of other batsmen falling. A player higher up won't have that problem.He can even pace his innings as he wants instead of being forced by the situation to bat a certain way.

 

What you are suggesting needs an innings by innings analysis not general view.

even we go by memory MSD in tests i remember england draw. 

few fighting fifties after collapses and thats it.

[Majestic]

48 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

At 7, Dhoni's absolute average is 27 compared to Jadeja's 31. Both decent sample sizes. Stokes hasnt played much there. Even by that criteria hes okay

 

The 20 and 30 you are talking about stop there because of other batsmen falling. A player higher up won't have that problem.He can even pace his innings as he wants instead of being forced by the situation to bat a certain way.

 

What you are suggesting needs an innings by innings analysis not general view.

Dhoni has played quite a few at 6 also and did superbly. The overall runs per innings tells us that Dhoni's contribution is way more with bat than Jadeja. 

 

You just need to do analysis of not out innings, not all innings and it is useful in assessing the overall contribution. There is no benefit of useless not outs, I m not punishing those not outs because I will remove those innings too and then count. I think overall Dhoni would have a slight edge still over Jadeja with bat, not as much as their RPI suggested but Dhoni would still be ahead.

Edited September 21 by Majestic

[Lord]

7 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Dhoni has played quite a few at 6 also and did superbly. The overall runs per innings tells us that Dhoni's contribution is way more with bat than Jadeja. 

 

You just need to do analysis of not out innings, not all innings and it is useful in assessing the overall contribution. There is no benefit of useless not outs, I m not punishing those not outs because I will remove those innings too and then count. I think overall Dhoni would have a slight edge still over Jadeja with bat, not as much as their RPI suggested but Dhoni would still be ahead.

 

How many impact innings of Dhoni you remember? Despite bigger scores, most of them were low impact tons that came in comfortable situations or flat decks with others scoring tons too.

 

Jadeja and Ashwin OTOH have to do repair job almost every 2nd innings so value of runs is higher anyway.

 

The 20-30 not outs are feature of lower batting positions and not reflection of ability

[Norman]

Only MSD knock that I remember in Tests is that double hundred against Australia in 2013 Chennai which set us up for the 4-0 cleansweep. 

 

He was a below average Test batter and captain and decent at wicket keeping.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

 

How many impact innings of Dhoni you remember? Despite bigger scores, most of them were low impact tons that came in comfortable situations or flat decks with others scoring tons too.

 

Jadeja and Ashwin OTOH have to do repair job almost every 2nd innings so value of runs is higher anyway.

 

The 20-30 not outs are feature of lower batting positions and not reflection of ability

Repair jobs? Lol, they had it too easy. Jadeja has 21 not outs in 105 innings. By your logic, even Imran Khan would be better batsman than Stokes as he averages higher than him and way higher than kapil . Ashwin's stats reflect his performance. He a worthy of his 27 average. 

Edited September 21 by Majestic

[Majestic]

Didn't MSD played a pivotal role in saving that test match in England and as a result winning the series in England in 2007?

 

He has quite a few scores of 90 odd overseas too.

 

Ofcourse that double ton vs Australia at Chennai was his best performance ever in Tests cricket.

[Sean Bradley]

Under dhoni straight after winning the 2011 WC, we had our worst ever away defeat, we got humiliated 5-0 in England, that series was an agony to watch, what ever happiness we had garnered by winning the World Cup, the team pissed all over it in England. 

[rkt.india]

13 hours ago, Sean Bradley said:

Dhoni was the worst WK batter to have captained in test cricket for India. He was an ODI legend no doubt, but guy was an absolute dud when it came to test cricket. Lacked intelligence and cricketing acumen for Test matches. Don't rate his batting at all. 

He was the best wk batsman we had before Pant.

[Trichromatic]

10 hours ago, Majestic said:

Didn't MSD played a pivotal role in saving that test match in England and as a result winning the series in England in 2007?

 

He has quite a few scores of 90 odd overseas too.

 

Ofcourse that double ton vs Australia at Chennai was his best performance ever in Tests cricket.

 

Even Ashwin saved a test v Aus at Sydney in 2021 which resulted in us winning the series.

[Trichromatic]

Remember when Jadeja scored 57(159) after India getting bowled out for 36 against ATG bowling attack.

 

Walked in at 173-5 and had that big partnership with Rahane which changed course of the series.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-in-australia-2020-21-1223867/australia-vs-india-2nd-test-1223870/full-scorecard

 

 

[Old guy]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

Remember when Jadeja scored 57(159) after India getting bowled out for 36 against ATG bowling attack.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-in-australia-2020-21-1223867/australia-vs-india-2nd-test-1223870/full-scorecard

 

 

i remember that pant was not being played before this disgrace lol

[Sean Bradley]

16 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

He was the best wk batsman we had before Pant.

Not in tests... Farookh engineer & Kirmani were better in tests before pant. 

[Trichromatic]

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-england-2021-2022-1239527/england-vs-india-1st-test-1239543/full-scorecard

 

Jadeja walked in at 145-5 and got dismissed at 232. India saved the match.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-england-2021-2022-1239527/england-vs-india-5th-test-1320741/full-scorecard

 

Walked in at 98-5 and took India to 300+. India lost the game, but Dhoni could never play like this.

[Majestic]

9 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Even Ashwin saved a test v Aus at Sydney in 2021 which resulted in us winning the series.

Dhoni got 76* while Ashwin got 20 odd and was a supporting cast alongwith Vihari with Pant-Pujara as main leads.

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

Dhoni got 76* while Ashwin got 20 odd and was a supporting cast alongwith Vihari with Pant-Pujara as main leads.

 

Although Ashwin got 39 against ATG bowling side which was almost unbeatable at home, number of runs hardly mattered in that drawn game.

 

 

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Although Ashwin got 39 against ATG bowling side which was almost unbeatable at home, number of runs hardly mattered in that drawn game.

 

 

That's debatable statement. Starc was all over the place in that series and it was a flat deck.

 

Dhoni averages 38 with bat while Ashwin averages 27. Dhoni is a pure batsman who in that situation would have gone for win, rather than Ashwin who knew that the win is beyond reach for him and hence it makes sense for him to do what he is best at doing. Buckle down, grind out and save a test match. He is a clutch batter but ultimately a no.8 batsman.  The standards are low. His poor record in SENA with bat is not questioned because he is not expected to hit consistent 50s in SENA. He just doesn't have that benchmark and that's fine because he is a bowler first and a #8 as a batsman.

Edited September 22 by Majestic

[Number]

12 hours ago, Majestic said:

Didn't MSD played a pivotal role in saving that test match in England and as a result winning the series in England in 2007?

 

He has quite a few scores of 90 odd overseas too.

 

Ofcourse that double ton vs Australia at Chennai was his best performance ever in Tests 

Perth 2008 and Durban 2010 too, he played his parts in those 2 wins.

Post 2011 WC he became a useless test captain and batsman away from home but made some vital contributions in major away victories before that.

I am not a fan of him but can't deny the man carried the a lot of luck with him.

Another notable performance I remember was 4th test against England in 2012 home series. He saved that test for India and saved us from an embarassing scoreline.

[Nikhil_cric]

Didn't Dhoni score a double ton against Australia in Chennai (maybe) 2013?