Ravindra Jadeja v MS Dhoni as test batsmen

[Jaydev_Unadkat]

Im no Dhoni fan but he was instrumental in us winning 2007 test series. He saved a certain defeat with the help of rain and tail Enders.

Also that was the beginning of Dhoni the lunge master

Edited September 22 by Jaydev_Unadkat

[sensible-indian]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

That's debatable statement. Starc was all over the place in that series and it was a flat deck.

 

Dhoni averages 38 with bat while Ashwin averages 27. Dhoni is a pure batsman who in that situation would have gone for win, rather than Ashwin who knew that the win is beyond reach for him and hence it makes sense for him to do what he is best at doing. Buckle down, grind out and save a test match. He is a clutch batter but ultimately a no.8 batsman.  The standards are low. His poor record in SENA with bat is not questioned because he is not expected to hit consistent 50s in SENA. He just doesn't have that benchmark and that's fine because he is a bowler first and a #8 as a batsman.

An embarrassing argument really.

 

You really could have made your points in some other way.

 

This line of argument just weakens your stance considerably.

[Majestic]

6 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

An embarrassing argument really.

 

You really could have made your points in some other way.

 

This line of argument just weakens your stance considerably.

With an average of 20 in SENA and just two fifties in SENA, if you believe he is any better than a #8 as a batsman in SENA, then that is being more delusional than anything else you could have ever been.

 

These stats prove that the bar is simply not high for him as pure batsman. Yes, he is a clutch batter and I will have hopes from him if say, we need 50 runs to win and 3 wickets left but the fact is he is not comparable to Dhoni as a batsman in any conditions. 

 

 

[Gollum]

Dhoni is overrated af but better test bat than Ashwin. Latter is very clutch and has played many high impact knocks, it's not only about average. Can recollect 10-15 instances of him saving our asses under huge pressure, can't remember even 5 knocks of Dhoni's. 

 

Statistically Jadeja will end up as better than Dhoni, and impactwise he is already better. 

 

Dhoni is a nobody in test cricket. In last 20 years I am not sure he is even top 10 among test keepers, BD's Mushfiq wipes the floor with him. By the age of 23, Pant had a more stellar test career than Dhoni, even Rizwan is much better. 

[Gollum]

One thing batter Ashwin doesn't know is to statpad. He rarely values not outs, doesn't think about average, throws his wicket for the team in pursuit of team's cause so many times. He has underachieved with the bat a lot I agree (laziness, lack of discipline valid reasons), but he is much better than his numbers. His impact as batsman goes beyond stats, like Kapil in the past. I can pick out some series from the past to justify his impact, most of you won't recollect them. 

Edited September 22 by Gollum

[sensible-indian]

50 minutes ago, Majestic said:

With an average of 20 in SENA and just two fifties in SENA, if you believe he is any better than a #8 as a batsman in SENA, then that is being more delusional than anything else you could have ever been.

 

These stats prove that the bar is simply not high for him as pure batsman. Yes, he is a clutch batter and I will have hopes from him if say, we need 50 runs to win and 3 wickets left but the fact is he is not comparable to Dhoni as a batsman in any conditions. 

 

 

Never said Ashwin is better bat than Dhoni.

 

But Jaddu comfortably is.

 

Was pointing out your argument downplaying his Sydney heroics...which weakens your whole argument...

 

That's one knock even GOAT Tendulkar would be proud to have in his resume considering the context in which it was made and the eventual outcome.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, sensible-indian said:

Never said Ashwin is better bat than Dhoni.

 

But Jaddu comfortably is.

 

Was pointing out your argument downplaying his Sydney heroics...which weakens your whole argument...

 

That's one knock even GOAT Tendulkar would be proud to have in his resume considering the context in which it was made and the eventual outcome.

I am not downplaying Ashwin's knock. It's actually the other way round. Folks here are just getting way too nostalgic and overhyping that one session blockathan which he did alongwith Vihari where the main leads were Rishabh Pant and Cheteshwar Pujara who brought India in the game by doing the hard work in first two sessions of the day.

 

Tendulkar shouldn't feel proud for saving a test match by blocking 100 odd deliveries, guys like Ben Stokes would always go for a win in such situations. I am not expecting Ashwin to do that and that's what I am trying to explain in my previous post. It was a good match saving knock for a #8 but that's where it ends. Rest is just too much of hyperbole.

 

Jaddu is not far from Dhoni in batting but I disagree that he also is comfortably better. Jaddu's stats during early part of his career was inflated via not outs and his second innings record is pretty poor. He has mostly scored all his runs in first inning when conditions have been good for batting. His runs tally tells us that he is not as good as his average suggests. Dhoni wasn't as good as his average suggests either. But his contributions with bat is comfortably way more than Jaddu. 

 

If you are looking for a genuine 36-38 averaging batsman, that's Rahane, Rahul, Stokes.

[R!TTER]

Dhoni was much better in Asia but generally trash away; he also could win us games from almost impossible situations, even in tests. The Chennai double against Oz in 2013 could only have been pulled off by him or Sehwag. In that sense, he was the exact opposite of his ODI career, a lot less dependable but having potentially a much higher ceiling.

[Gollum]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I am not downplaying Ashwin's knock. It's actually the other way round. Folks here are just getting way too nostalgic and overhyping that one session blockathan which he did alongwith Vihari where the main leads were Rishabh Pant and Cheteshwar Pujara who brought India in the game by doing the hard work in first two sessions of the day.

43 overs is one session? 

 

Greatest Indian partnership to save a game, if you see the context of that game. Btw Jadeja was padded next with a broken thumb, and we had noobs after that. 

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Tendulkar shouldn't feel proud for saving a test match by blocking 100 odd deliveries, guys like Ben Stokes would always go for a win in such situations. I am not expecting Ashwin to do that and that's what I am trying to explain in my previous post. It was a good match saving knock for a #8 but that's where it ends. Rest is just too much of hyperbole.

Blockathons aren't for everyone. Sachin tried that in 2005 Bengaluru against Pak but fell to Sami after 90 odd deliveries. 

 

AB, Amla, Faf have done it couple of times. 

 

Please don't bring Ben Stokes in this discussion, let us limit ourselves to serious cricketers.

[Majestic]

There is too much hyperbole being made about Ashwin in that Border Gavaskar Trophy win 2020.

 

Let's take a look at the performances and who all contributed and how much.

 

Melbourne Test - Rahane captained and led admirably with a magnificent hundred when it mattered the most. He really set up the tone and was adjudged player of match. Bumrah and Ashwin were both excellent with ball. Jadeja was very good with ball and played a vital 57 supporting Rahane. Siraj was very good too.

 

The bowling attack performed as a group together and Rahane was the hero with bat with support from Jadeja.

 

Sydney Test - Australia were cruising in with 200-2 at one point with Ashwin struggling to do anything with bowl ( yes the man who is hyped as the guy who won India the series was struggling with bowl) and then it was Jadeja who came and run through Aus lineup, picking 4 wickets and a Blinder run out, keeping Australia in check. Pant came and threatened Australia of taking away the game in 4th inning while Pujara grinded out as if his life was on stake and battled for two sessions. Finally Ashwin and Vihari supported them and the match ended up in a draw. There were several heroes of the match which includes Jadeja, Pant, Pujara, Ashwin and Vihari.

 

In Gabba, he was injured and dropped. Sundar and shardul came and replaced him very well. By no means, Ashwin was standout performer in any of those two tests. He contributed well but over that series, the real game changer was Rishabh Pant and there were equally effective performances from Bumrah, Jadeja, Pujara, Rahane, Siraj, Sundar, Shardul and Gill.

Edited September 22 by Majestic

[sensible-indian]

40 minutes ago, Majestic said:

There is too much hyperbole being made about Ashwin in that Border Gavaskar Trophy win 2020.

 

Let's take a look at the performances and who all contributed and how much.

 

Melbourne Test - Rahane captained and led admirably with a magnificent hundred when it mattered the most. He really set up the tone and was adjudged player of match. Bumrah and Ashwin were both excellent with ball. Jadeja was very good with ball and played a vital 57 supporting Rahane. Siraj was very good too.

 

The bowling attack performed as a group together and Rahane was the hero with bat with support from Jadeja.

 

Sydney Test - Australia were cruising in with 200-2 at one point with Ashwin struggling to do anything with bowl ( yes the man who is hyped as the guy who won India the series was struggling with bowl) and then it was Jadeja who came and run through Aus lineup, picking 4 wickets and a Blinder run out, keeping Australia in check. Pant came and threatened Australia of taking away the game in 4th inning while Pujara grinded out as if his life was on stake and battled for two sessions. Finally Ashwin and Vihari supported them and the match ended up in a draw. There were several heroes of the match which includes Jadeja, Pant, Pujara, Ashwin and Vihari.

 

In Gabba, he was injured and dropped. Sundar and shardul came and replaced him very well. By no means, Ashwin was standout performer in any of those two tests. He contributed well but over that series, the real game changer was Rishabh Pant and there were equally effective performances from Bumrah, Jadeja, Pujara, Rahane, Siraj, Sundar, Shardul and Gill.

Lol what about Adelaide?

 

We had the upper hand until the unexpected collapse.

 

Go and check who played a massive role in giving us that upper hand.

Edited September 22 by sensible-indian

[sensible-indian]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

I am not downplaying Ashwin's knock. It's actually the other way round. Folks here are just getting way too nostalgic and overhyping that one session blockathan which he did alongwith Vihari where the main leads were Rishabh Pant and Cheteshwar Pujara who brought India in the game by doing the hard work in first two sessions of the day.

 

Tendulkar shouldn't feel proud for saving a test match by blocking 100 odd deliveries, guys like Ben Stokes would always go for a win in such situations. I am not expecting Ashwin to do that and that's what I am trying to explain in my previous post. It was a good match saving knock for a #8 but that's where it ends. Rest is just too much of hyperbole.

 

Jaddu is not far from Dhoni in batting but I disagree that he also is comfortably better. Jaddu's stats during early part of his career was inflated via not outs and his second innings record is pretty poor. He has mostly scored all his runs in first inning when conditions have been good for batting. His runs tally tells us that he is not as good as his average suggests. Dhoni wasn't as good as his average suggests either. But his contributions with bat is comfortably way more than Jaddu. 

 

If you are looking for a genuine 36-38 averaging batsman, that's Rahane, Rahul, Stokes.

100% disagree with your first 2 paras.

 

We will move on bhai.

[BlueBlood]

The irony of Indian fans supporting Jadeja over Dhoni.

 

When the same fans blamed Dhoni for selecting and persisting "malnourished" Jadeja for well over 5 years of Jadeja's career.

 

Same goes for Ashwin who was persisted by Dhoni and even treated as an all-rounder.

 

Dhoni post 2011 downgraded his level thanks to the same issue of Jadeja and Ashwin underpeforming in SENA who he persisted until Bumrah and Pandya came along who he persisted with again despite hate from fans.

 

People here are nuts to say Jadeja is better bat than Dhoni. Dhoni was never dropped for his batting pre-captaincy while Jadeja was until he went to domestic and scored a triple hundred.

 

How people forget history. It's like idiocracy revisited after minnow bashing a hapless and tired Bangladesh team in home conditions after a nice break.

[Majestic]

6 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

100% disagree with your first 2 paras.

 

We will move on bhai.

In that Sydney Test particular innings, there were 4 high quality batting performances which helped save us a test match. The best performance was from Pant who threatened Australia of taking away the game, which forced their captain to go defensive on field. Pant scored 97 runs while Pujara held one end for more than 200 balls and scored 70 odd runs. When these two got out, Vihari and Ashwin blocked and saved the test match. Vihari blocked for 161 balls while Ashwin blocked for 130 balls.

 

Clearly, Ashwin's performance with bat was 4th best performance of that particular inning, not even the match. His contribution in Sydney Test was miniscule. Overhyping the 4th best performance of a particular inning won't make it a great inning. It was a very good knock for a #8 but that's where it ends.

Edited September 23 by Majestic

[Majestic]

6 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Lol what about Adelaide?

 

We had the upper hand until the unexpected collapse.

 

Go and check who played a massive role in giving us that upper hand.

In Adelaide he did well but ultimately India suffered a humiliating lost. The performance in that test will be of lowest value of the other four.

 

Bowling wise, Siraj, Bumrah, Ashwin all played three tests each and did about equally well. Actually,Siraj was probably the best bowler for delivering up and leading the inexperienced pace attack quite comprehensively. Jadeja played two tests and did well with both bat and ball. Shardul and Sundar also did well in 1 test they played.

 

Pujara did well in last two tests. Rahane set it up and tuned the table with his captaincy and batting in Melbourne. Pant was the real game changer in last two tests. There was no one guy who won the series but if I have to put my bet on two names, it would be Pant and Siraj. Those were series defining performance for both of them. Ashwin and Bumrah weren't part of Gabba win and hence fall short.

Edited September 23 by Majestic

[sensible-indian]

3 hours ago, Majestic said:

In Adelaide he did well but ultimately India suffered a humiliating lost. The performance in that test will be of lowest value of the other four.

 

Bowling wise, Siraj, Bumrah, Ashwin all played three tests each and did about equally well. Actually,Siraj was probably the best bowler for delivering up and leading the inexperienced pace attack quite comprehensively. Jadeja played two tests and did well with both bat and ball. Shardul and Sundar also did well in 1 test they played.

 

Pujara did well in last two tests. Rahane set it up and tuned the table with his captaincy and batting in Melbourne. Pant was the real game changer in last two tests. There was no one guy who won the series but if I have to put my bet on two names, it would be Pant and Siraj. Those were series defining performance for both of them. Ashwin and Bumrah weren't part of Gabba win and hence fall short.

You are just summarizing what we all know.

 

Point was you downplayed what Ashwin did.

 

But here you say Ashwin, Siraj and Bumrah had equal role to play with the ball.

 

And yes and on top of that, Ashwin saved a crucial test with the bat...LOL.

 

You can type all the paras you want brother but your argument is not convincing one bit.

 

Anyways...back to topic...

 

Dhoni better than Ash.

 

Jaddu better than Dhoni.

 

:)

[sensible-indian]

3 hours ago, Majestic said:

In that Sydney Test particular innings, there were 4 high quality batting performances which helped save us a test match. The best performance was from Pant who threatened Australia of taking away the game, which forced their captain to go defensive on field. Pant scored 97 runs while Pujara held one end for more than 200 balls and scored 70 odd runs. When these two got out, Vihari and Ashwin blocked and saved the test match. Vihari blocked for 161 balls while Ashwin blocked for 130 balls.

 

Clearly, Ashwin's performance with bat was 4th best performance of that particular inning, not even the match. His contribution in Sydney Test was miniscule. Overhyping the 4th best performance of a particular inning won't make it a great inning. It was a very good knock for a #8 but that's where it ends.

 

Lol

[putrevus]

Jadeja is better batsman than either Dhoni or Ashwin.Dhoni was a non factor in any other country other than India.

 

Jadeja is just awesome to have improved so much.He has batted even as number 5 and  scored lot of runs as well in difficult situations.

[rkt.india]

On 9/22/2024 at 11:23 AM, Sean Bradley said:

Not in tests... Farookh engineer & Kirmani were better in tests before pant. 

As a wk batsman, none were better than Dhoni.

[Majestic]

7 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

You are just summarizing what we all know.

 

Point was you downplayed what Ashwin did.

 

But here you say Ashwin, Siraj and Bumrah had equal role to play with the ball.

 

And yes and on top of that, Ashwin saved a crucial test with the bat...LOL.

 

You can type all the paras you want brother but your argument is not convincing one bit.

 

Anyways...back to topic...

 

Dhoni better than Ash.

 

Jaddu better than Dhoni.

 

:)

Not good enough..try again.