Even Vietnamese are getting taller

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, randomGuy said:

Race is the same for all castes... what you are calling genetics is hundreds of years of injustices and exploitation of Dalits.

 

But it can be reversed in just a few generations worth of resources and opportunity. Meaning a dalit from punjab/haryana etc. will be as tall and as strong as upper caste folks from these states if given the resources for a few generations.

I won't go into exploitation of Dalit debate  but as per genetic studies so far there is a significant difference.  Can't just ignore it & brush aside 

But I agree it can be overcomed but then again genetic potential can be different for every community.

India is diverse for a reason.

[randomGuy]

8 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

I won't go into exploitation of Dalit debate  but as per genetic studies so far there is a significant difference.  Can't just ignore it & brush aside 

But I agree it can be overcomed but then again genetic potential can be different for every community.

India is diverse for a reason.

Why would you not go into? If some communities hold all the land, cows, buffaloes, water etc. and exploit other ones (Dalits in the case) for 100s of years, it does have deep consequences which are the 'genetic differences' that you are talking in addition to the psychological, social consequences...

 

I am not comparing a jat with an African-American sprinter or with a Chinese, that you make race\genetics as much of an issue. I am simply comparing harayanvi upper caste to a haryanvi dalit. 100s of years of exploitation has had such an impact that you believe there are racial differences. 

[randomGuy]

Another example of the importance of upbringing -

 

Ramdasia and mazhabi Sikhs are so called lower caste Sikhs. Ramdasia being dalit and mazhabi Sikhs maybe lower than dalit. 

 

Yet because Sikhs were basically martial people and had such upbringing, you have even a Sikh light infantry composed of ramdasias and mazhabis. (Sikh regiment from jatt sikhs).

 

This is to say that you can compare dalit Sikhs (Ramdasia and mazhabi) with other kshatriya castes of India. This is the power of upbringing. 

 

This is why I say, rather than thinking about 'genetic difference' , think where we lacked giving people equal resources n opportunities in our history.

Edited September 30 by randomGuy

[Muloghonto]

38 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

Why would you not go into? If some communities hold all the land, cows, buffaloes, water etc. and exploit other ones (Dalits in the case) for 100s of years, it does have deep consequences which are the 'genetic differences' that you are talking in addition to the psychological, social consequences...

 

I am not comparing a jat with an African-American sprinter or with a Chinese, that you make race\genetics as much of an issue. I am simply comparing harayanvi upper caste to a haryanvi dalit. 100s of years of exploitation has had such an impact that you believe there are racial differences. 

There is no substance to your argument, since European caste system was far more locked in and far less flexible than the Indian one (they have zero lower class kings like us in history) and what you are saying is also true for most of European peasantry- landless, severely discriminated against, yet no difference. 

 

[randomGuy]

10 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

There is no substance to your argument, since European caste system was far more locked in and far less flexible than the Indian one (they have zero lower class kings like us in history) and what you are saying is also true for most of European peasantry- landless, severely discriminated against, yet no difference. 

 

I don't know about the facts to compare. But if Europeans were kept in same situation as Indian lower castes for 100s of years by some exploiters, then they would also need a few generations to recover.

[Muloghonto]

43 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

I don't know about the facts to compare. But if Europeans were kept in same situation as Indian lower castes for 100s of years by some exploiters, then they would also need a few generations to recover.

 

Its a moot point, because Europeans started the trend of getting half a foot taller over a span of a century on average, which the Chinese and Vietnamese are on track for, thanks to huge increase in meat consumption. 

You clear-cut dodged the point i made : there are PLENTY of documented, peer reviewed examples of given population undergoing significant height increase over a span of 3-4 generations who also coincide with a decisive increase in meat consumption. 
NO SUCH EXAMPLES EXIST FOR VEGETARIAN DIET in medical literature. 

 

[coffee_rules]

2 hours ago, randomGuy said:

Thankfully in my community (Sindhi) there's no caste.

Don’t start this bhai. Sindhis have  many  communities that don’t inter-mingle , Sindhis migrated from Pakistan are separated from original pure Sindhis living in India. There are many castes among Hindu Sindhis , I am told. Who are Bhatiyas, Aroras, Trader communities among Hindu Sindhis.

Edited September 30 by coffee_rules

[Singh bling]

1 hour ago, randomGuy said:

Another example of the importance of upbringing -

 

Ramdasia and mazhabi Sikhs are so called lower caste Sikhs. Ramdasia being dalit and mazhabi Sikhs maybe lower than dalit. 

 

Yet because Sikhs were basically martial people and had such upbringing, you have even a Sikh light infantry composed of ramdasias and mazhabis. (Sikh regiment from jatt sikhs).

 

This is to say that you can compare dalit Sikhs (Ramdasia and mazhabi) with other kshatriya castes of India. This is the power of upbringing. 

 

This is why I say, rather than thinking about 'genetic difference' , think where we lacked giving people equal resources n opportunities in our history.

Actually Dalits have their own protein source in form.of pork. If you go any lower class market you will find pork meat shops selling cheap pork . Once I was in Rohtak and me and my brother had free time so we were roaming their in car . Being core jaat city I did not find single chicken or mutton shop not even non vegetarian restaurants but surprisingly 1-2 shops of cheap pork were their

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Singh bling said:

Actually Dalits have their own protein source in form.of pork. If you go any lower class market you will find pork meat shops selling cheap pork . Once I was in Rohtak and me and my brother had free time so we were roaming their in car . Being core jaat city I did not find single chicken or mutton shop not even non vegetarian restaurants but surprisingly 1-2 shops of cheap pork were their

Well as i said, if the data really includes ALL religious groups in India, then we can't blame it on meat or nutrition for declining height and must blame climate. 

[Singh bling]

49 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Well as i said, if the data really includes ALL religious groups in India, then we can't blame it on meat or nutrition for declining height and must blame climate. 

The state-wise trends of average height of men in the age group of 15 to 25 years find only men from Nagaland showing significant improvement in their average height [1.27 cm, 95% CI, 0.20 to 2.34, p-0.02]. Himachal Pradesh, Manipur, Meghalaya, and Mizoram also showed improvement in the average height of men while rest of the states exhibited de

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8448320/#pone.0255676.s011

 

 

 

The above states has shown improvement on the other hand if you download the table then you will see Haryana and Karnataka have lost considerable height of over 2cm  in age group of 15-25 . So climate cannot be blamed as sole factor

 

 

Edited September 30 by Singh bling

[Muloghonto]

17 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

The state-wise trends of average height of men in the age group of 15 to 25 years find only men from Nagaland showing significant improvement in their average height [1.27 cm, 95% CI, 0.20 to 2.34, p-0.02]. Himachal Pradesh, Manipur, Meghalaya, and Mizoram also showed improvement in the average height of men while rest of the states exhibited de

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8448320/#pone.0255676.s011

 

 

 

The above states has shown improvement on the other hand if you download the table then you will see Haryana and Karnataka have lost considerable height of over 2cm  in age group of 15-25 . So climate cannot be blamed as sole factor

 

 

Then it cannot be nutrition either - because ALL those states are under the global average for childhood nutrition. Nagaland, Meghalaya & Himachal have significantly higher child malnutrition rate ( 26.9%, 26.6 % & 25.5%) than Kerala ( 19.7%), Punjab (16.9%), etc. 

Also your report says height is declining across ALL religious groupings- meaning inclusive of Parsees, the only demographic in India to have first world standards of nutrition. 

So climate being a bigger driver than nutrition in case of India is a more likely cause, as the population of the regions that show any improvement in height are ALL high foliage states, with high tree cover from sun & heat. 

Forests have a known cooling effect during the day over open terrain and the effect is much stronger around the equator than around the poles, so the only correlation factor i can find in ALL states you have named that have height increase, is that they ALL have high forest cover and thus cooler temperatures than the Indian average, especially in the summer : 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms7603#:~:text=During daytime%2C cooling is the,less near the poles (Fig.

[Ranvir]

8 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Yeah problem starts actually during baby period itself no denying.

But genetics & climatic conditions do come into play eventually... With nutrition being the obvious biggest factor at play.

There is a reason as per data East Indians have lesser median age height compared to other regions.

The UP Bihar Odiya Labour all have same disadvantages.

Biharis actually eat a lot of meat as well.

Also I reckon Punjab and JK have highest upper caste percentage as per data (there was some electoral data ) that around 66% people in JK are Upper Caste (Muslims have caste system too) while around 52% people in Punjab are UC's.

Those were abnormally high number compared to rest of the country.

Punjab has the highest dalit percentage in all of India. The high castles are the Brahmins, Khatris (kshatriya) and Rajputs, they're only a small part if the population. 

[Vancouver]

12 minutes ago, Ranvir said:

Punjab has the highest dalit percentage in all of India. The high castles are the Brahmins, Khatris (kshatriya) and Rajputs, they're only a small part if the population. 

 

 

Although the word "Khatri" derives from the word "Kshatriya", in modern day Punjab's context Khatri refers to a "cluster of merchant castes including Bedis, Bhallas and Sodhis". Historians cite the claim as originates from a conflation of the phonetically similar words khatri and kshatriya, but refers to Khatris as a "trading caste" of the Sikh Gurus.

 

In Punjab's context it's actually Jatt clans like Sidhu, Brar and Bhatti's belong to Kshatriya's not Khatri's.

 

 

 

[randomGuy]

7 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Don’t start this bhai. Sindhis have  many  communities that don’t inter-mingle , Sindhis migrated from Pakistan are separated from original pure Sindhis living in India. There are many castes among Hindu Sindhis , I am told. Who are Bhatiyas, Aroras, Trader communities among Hindu Sindhis.

Pure sindhis? I thought all sindhis migrated from sindh at some time. I didn't know my caste, neither did my father know, then we had to ask my grandfather, to fill some column. 

 

Same is the case with every Sindhi...noone knows their 'caste'.

 

If we have to marry within sindhis caste is absolutely zero barrier.

Edited October 1 by randomGuy

[kepler37b]

The experts in nutrition can chime in:

 

I think it is quite difficult for a population of our size to have >10% protein in our diet.

 

We will have to either grow industrial meat farms(like Americans) or resort to eating insects(Like chinese)

 

The former is a disastrous solution and the latter is a disgusting one.

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, kepler37b said:

The experts in nutrition can chime in:

 

I think it is quite difficult for a population of our size to have >10% protein in our diet.

 

We will have to either grow industrial meat farms(like Americans) or resort to eating insects(Like chinese)

 

The former is a disastrous solution and the latter is a disgusting one.

Chinese diet for meat isnt insects - those are the exotic things they eat, same as bengali fish-head pulao. 

chinese meat consumption is extremely heavy in pork, chicken & fish, with beef playing the role of 'bakri' in their diet- occasional/for rich people etc. 

but on a day-in & day-out basis, the Chinese consume significantly more chicken, pork & fish than Indians, with their pork consumption probably being greatest in the world. they also eat **** tons of more vegetable protien than us, in form of soya beans. 

 

Chinese people joke all the time that they dont fear Islam because China without pork is like Germany without sausages.

 

So if China can, we can too.

Industrial meat farms are not a 'disaster' if your protien source isnt beef. Its beef that is the biggest disaster in industrial farming, constituting 7% of global greenhouse emissions ALONE. 

yes, if beef emissions was a nation, it'd rank equal to or just ahead of India for #3-4 for 'most emissions' by a country. Beef industry also consumes 40-50% of the ENTIRE grain production of nations like USA, Canada, brazil, etc. who are in the top 5-6 grain producers in the world.

Poultry on the other hand has 5 times lower greenhouse gas emissions + 4 times lower grain consumption per pound of meat yeilded. 

 

So our diet pattern isnt a big threat to any sort of disaster, because increasing meat consumption in a population always constitutes increasing the said population's Chosen meat supply, bet it goat, sheep, cow, pig, etc. 

westerners were a beef eating society in pre-industrial age, so when they got rich, they started eating cows like candy. We are mostly a chicken based society for meat and when we will get rich, we will eat chicken like candy too.

 

[rkt.india]

On 9/30/2024 at 9:30 PM, Ranvir said:

I'm 6ft2. My Dad at his peak was 5'6, Mum 5'1.

 

I drank lots of milk as a child and attribute my height to that. Also had lots of daal and also ate meat on the weekends.

My maternal cousins son is 6'3 at 17 years of age. His father is max 5'7, mother 5'1. Grandfather was 5'9, grandmother is max 5. Complete vegetarian family. Not even eggs.  

 

There is a gujarati family completely vegetarian. They were our tenants once. Father height is 5'6. Mother 5'1. Their son now at 17 is 6'2".  In both these cases, meat eating, family genetics failed.

 

Even in my family, both my parents are 5'4. My younger brother is 5'11. I am 5'9. Complete vegetarians. 

Edited October 3 by rkt.india

[rkt.india]

On 10/1/2024 at 4:03 AM, Singh bling said:

The state-wise trends of average height of men in the age group of 15 to 25 years find only men from Nagaland showing significant improvement in their average height [1.27 cm, 95% CI, 0.20 to 2.34, p-0.02]. Himachal Pradesh, Manipur, Meghalaya, and Mizoram also showed improvement in the average height of men while rest of the states exhibited de

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8448320/#pone.0255676.s011

 

 

 

The above states has shown improvement on the other hand if you download the table then you will see Haryana and Karnataka have lost considerable height of over 2cm  in age group of 15-25 . So climate cannot be blamed as sole factor

 

 

Don't know how did they collect data. They should collect data only for kids age 15-20 as what I am seeing around me is kids getting taller than their parents. If kids are growing taller than the parents then how can height decrease.  

Edited October 3 by rkt.india

[Singh bling]

9 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Don't know how did they collect data. They should collect data only for kids age 15-20 as what I am seeing around me is kids getting taller than their parents. If kids are growing taller than the parents then how can height decrease.  

These stories are nothing more than exceptions

 

Look how so few guys ended up 6 feet plus in india 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

49 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

My maternal cousins son is 6'3 at 17 years of age. His father is max 5'7, mother 5'1. Grandfather was 5'9, grandmother is max 5. Complete vegetarian family. Not even eggs.  

 

There is a gujarati family completely vegetarian. They were our tenants once. Father height is 5'6. Mother 5'1. Their son now at 17 is 6'2".  In both these cases, meat eating, family genetics failed.

 

Even in my family, both my parents are 5'4. My younger brother is 5'11. I am 5'9. Complete vegetarians. 

Are you heavy on consumption of milk and milk products though?