jigjig Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 24 minutes ago, Mariyam said: This can’t be the template. Everytime there is a discussion on anything contentious: Oh you all should have gone to Pakistan etc. That ship has sailed. These issues can be discussed in the present tense without invoking the need for an alternate history scenario. This is real life not a Quentin Tarantino movie. Also, as an idea, India is much more sturdy and humane. A land for all Indians. Pakistan as an idea is a land for Muslims exclusively. Look where it got them. Why would anyone want to go there? Perhaps in 1947 it may hold some allure, but the idea of Pakistan died in 1971 and has died a 100 times after that. Now practically impossible may be except doing conversions , yes, but surely it can be highlighted as a mistake of the past. There have been many worldwide. coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kepler37b Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Mariyam said: This can’t be the template. Everytime there is a discussion on anything contentious: Oh you all should have gone to Pakistan etc. That ship has sailed. These issues can be discussed in the present tense without invoking the need for an alternate history scenario. This is real life not a Quentin Tarantino movie. Also, as an idea, India is much more sturdy and humane. A land for all Indians. Pakistan as an idea is a land for Muslims exclusively. Look where it got them. Why would anyone want to go there? Perhaps in 1947 it may hold some allure, but the idea of Pakistan died in 1971 and has died a 100 times after that. I am only saying we would have been better off as different countries. The Muslim elite of India would have made a better Pakistan. Many times better than its sorry state. And the absence of conflict would have made Hindus to be even more efficient. Win win for both. And the current green dump PP would have had better quality posters. Edited November 26 by kepler37b coffee_rules and Mariyam 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 4 minutes ago, diga said: Ohh.. the problem is the illegal mushrooming of graveyard. Since 80s , the land been cultivated and not a single skeleton discovered and now one comes and makes a claim . That is what I was referring to in my previous post. For example, where Rajiv Gandhi Airport stands in Hyderabad today: Shamsabad was a plot of land set aside by the last/second last Nawab of Hyderabad as a designated area for burial of the royal family and their noble folk of the royal household. Some part of the area at least. All this exists in the records the Nawab kept and shared with the British ( tribute/ taxation was basis land holdings). Back then it was just some far flung jungle area. Ofcourse there will be no single skeleton as the land was taken over almost immediately after Hyderabad was incorporated into the Union of India. The graveyard was never in use. What now? The State Waqf board is playing to the gallery and trying to squeeze as much as they can from the government for this now prime land. From what ever I have read, their case isn't strong because when the state Waqf board compiled lists in the 70s, 80s and 90s this plot was left out. At some point there will be some settlement. coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kepler37b Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 44 minutes ago, Mariyam said: It is in fact, the other way around. Waqf records from the 1940s and 1950s would show a lot of land reserved for graveyards. Most of this would be in what would then be outskirts of the cities. With unchecked urbanisation, our cities grew in all directions. And many grave yards were simply taken over by PSUs and builders. This problem is most pronounced in Delhi. And Mysore. Zafar Shah, in addition to being a rubbish king, was a poet of some repute: Kitna hai badnaseeb ‘Zafar’ Dafn ke liye do gaz zameen bhi na mili Quu e yaar* mein (*) Quu e yaar : Dear/Beloved land Speaking in practical terms, a grave for each of 200 million people is impossible in a land scarce country likes ours. It might be for a thinly populated country like Arabia or Iran. But not here. Zafar shah is indeed a dumb king. He should have seen this. diga 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kepler37b Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 10 minutes ago, Mariyam said: That is what I was referring to in my previous post. For example, where Rajiv Gandhi Airport stands in Hyderabad today: Shamsabad was a plot of land set aside by the last/second last Nawab of Hyderabad as a designated area for burial of the royal family and their noble folk of the royal household. Some part of the area at least. All this exists in the records the Nawab kept and shared with the British ( tribute/ taxation was basis land holdings). Back then it was just some far flung jungle area. Ofcourse there will be no single skeleton as the land was taken over almost immediately after Hyderabad was incorporated into the Union of India. The graveyard was never in use. What now? The State Waqf board is playing to the gallery and trying to squeeze as much as they can from the government for this now prime land. From what ever I have read, their case isn't strong because when the state Waqf board compiled lists in the 70s, 80s and 90s this plot was left out. At some point there will be some settlement. FYI...indian union captured many properties of royal families. This is not an exception. WAQF board must accept and move on. And who gave the nawab the rights to allocate that jungle land to himself? ravishingravi, diga and coffee_rules 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangeelaraja Posted November 26 Author Share Posted November 26 17 minutes ago, kepler37b said: I am only saying we would have been better off as different countries. The Muslim elite of India would have made a better Pakistan. Many times better than its sorry state. And the absence of conflict would have made Hindus to be even more efficient. Win win for both. And the current green dump PP would have had better quality posters. Even Hindu RW'ers like me will disagree with that. There are millions of Muslim nationals like @Mariyam who are 10X more patriotic than Hindu RWers ( love Bharat in the truest sense ), and that can also include me. But it is also a fact that when you do that Maths, thats a very very small minority in terms of absolute numbers. No one has done philanthrophy like Azim Premji. diga, ravishingravi, sorak and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kepler37b Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 27 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: Even Hindu RW'ers like me will disagree with that. There are millions of Muslim nationals like @Mariyam who are 10X more patriotic than Hindu RWers ( love Bharat in the truest sense ), and that can also include me. But it is also a fact that when you do that Maths, thats a very very small minority in terms of absolute numbers. No one has done philanthrophy like Azim Premji. No once can beat the xtian church in philanthropy. They are the OG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 48 minutes ago, Mariyam said: That is what I was referring to in my previous post. For example, where Rajiv Gandhi Airport stands in Hyderabad today: Shamsabad was a plot of land set aside by the last/second last Nawab of Hyderabad as a designated area for burial of the royal family and their noble folk of the royal household. Some part of the area at least. All this exists in the records the Nawab kept and shared with the British ( tribute/ taxation was basis land holdings). Back then it was just some far flung jungle area. Ofcourse there will be no single skeleton as the land was taken over almost immediately after Hyderabad was incorporated into the Union of India. The graveyard was never in use. What now? The State Waqf board is playing to the gallery and trying to squeeze as much as they can from the government for this now prime land. From what ever I have read, their case isn't strong because when the state Waqf board compiled lists in the 70s, 80s and 90s this plot was left out. At some point there will be some settlement. I thought a Muslim owner should offer the land to the community in the name of Allah , for the Waqf board to claim ownership now. If the Nawab had designated land for a graveyard for royal family, how is it that the Waqf board claiming that land now? How about similar pledges by Hindu kings for temples? What if a Hindu board start claiming this land? How far do we go back? The whole land belonged to Hindu Kings at some point when they sent a royal horse run till it got tired or was challenged. That is why I think the Waqf act of 1952 itself should have been qualified properly. The history behind that act was for Muslims to safeguard their property by signing it to the Waqf trust before they moved to Pakistan. Waqf board has claimed ownership of all such properties. Similar Hindus’ properties in Pakistan have been illegally usurped by Pakistani Muslims. When migrant Hindus wanted to occupy similar Muslums’ property in India . Gandhi /Mehru wouldn’t allow it. kepler37b 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 On 11/24/2024 at 3:05 PM, jigjig said: 3 were shot by police today when they indulged into stone pelting in UP trying to stop a survey who told you it was Police. A lot of time its enmity among bigwigs who make use of such protests. Serves multiple purpose. Eliminate the enemy, Fuel the violence and Give something media Lord and jigjig 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 6 hours ago, Mariyam said: That is what I was referring to in my previous post. For example, where Rajiv Gandhi Airport stands in Hyderabad today: Shamsabad was a plot of land set aside by the last/second last Nawab of Hyderabad as a designated area for burial of the royal family and their noble folk of the royal household. Some part of the area at least. All this exists in the records the Nawab kept and shared with the British ( tribute/ taxation was basis land holdings). Back then it was just some far flung jungle area. Ofcourse there will be no single skeleton as the land was taken over almost immediately after Hyderabad was incorporated into the Union of India. The graveyard was never in use. What now? The State Waqf board is playing to the gallery and trying to squeeze as much as they can from the government for this now prime land. From what ever I have read, their case isn't strong because when the state Waqf board compiled lists in the 70s, 80s and 90s this plot was left out. At some point there will be some settlement. I firmly believe that its least we can do to provide a honorable burial/last rites to anyone. I am projected as RW nut. I am sure if Waqf Board puts a honest/genuine demand, so called RW Nuts will support them. But current Powers and methods of Waqf are unacceptable coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 14 hours ago, Mariyam said: Thank you for an on the topic and logical response. There are two aspects here which can and should be separated: 1) Is there a need for a Waqf? Act of 1954/55 2) Does the Act need over reaching powers? Amendment of 1995 The answer to the first question is yes. As a part of freedom of religion, you can make an arguement that a religious body determine how its assets are run. The ASI will take care arguement doesn't hold true always. There are many properties in India which do not fall under the ambit of the ASI protected structures but still are properties of religious/historic significance. The answer to the second question is that the Waqf tribunal be defanged and claims fought out in regular courts. And the onus should be on the claimant if he says xyz is a Waqf land to show land records at least back to a certain period to make the claim. Else just quash the case as frivolous and fine him for wasting the time of the respectable court. Hopefully the act will be limited to 1) above and not 2). The clauses of survey should be abolished. It is like running a parallel government that surveys all land and starts claiming property based on a deed or usage for namaaz etc., and sometimes without any need for records. Are the proceedings / revenue from commercial properties owned by Wakf board audited by state to check if it is indeed used for charity or religious purposes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jigjig Posted November 26 Share Posted November 26 10 hours ago, mishra said: I firmly believe that its least we can do to provide a honorable burial/last rites to anyone. I am projected as RW nut. I am sure if Waqf Board puts a honest/genuine demand, so called RW Nuts will support them. But current Powers and methods of Waqf are unacceptable Why capture additional land for it..use the existing graveyards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 27 Share Posted November 27 (edited) AIMPLB ki aawaz par, tamaam jamhoori, aadab aur qawaaneen ki lihaaz rakhte huye , aur pur amn-tareekhe par - Come and do peaceful protests on the street!! Edited November 27 by coffee_rules jigjig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechEng Posted November 27 Share Posted November 27 (edited) On 11/25/2024 at 8:01 AM, jigjig said: Sawaal hai Kumar Vishwas ka aur kaafi bharatiyon ka “मस्जिदें उसने बनाई, मंदिरों को तोड़ कर मस्जिदें क्या बन नही सकती थी, मंदिर छोड़ कर..?” Occupancy certificate nahi mila hoga tab Edited November 27 by MechEng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jigjig Posted November 27 Share Posted November 27 4 hours ago, coffee_rules said: AIMPLB ki aawaz par, tamaam jamhoori, aadab aur qawaaneen ki lihaaz rakhte huye , aur pur amn-tareekhe par - Come and do peaceful protests on the street!! Woh lal cheeti waala delet kar diya. Colour acha nahi laga Kiya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted November 27 Share Posted November 27 On 11/26/2024 at 8:48 AM, kepler37b said: FYI...indian union captured many properties of royal families. This is not an exception. WAQF board must accept and move on. And who gave the nawab the rights to allocate that jungle land to himself? On 11/26/2024 at 9:34 AM, coffee_rules said: I thought a Muslim owner should offer the land to the community in the name of Allah , for the Waqf board to claim ownership now. If the Nawab had designated land for a graveyard for royal family, how is it that the Waqf board claiming that land now? How about similar pledges by Hindu kings for temples? What if a Hindu board start claiming this land? How far do we go back? The whole land belonged to Hindu Kings at some point when they sent a royal horse run till it got tired or was challenged. That is why I think the Waqf act of 1952 itself should have been qualified properly. The history behind that act was for Muslims to safeguard their property by signing it to the Waqf trust before they moved to Pakistan. Waqf board has claimed ownership of all such properties. Similar Hindus’ properties in Pakistan have been illegally usurped by Pakistani Muslims. When migrant Hindus wanted to occupy similar Muslums’ property in India . Gandhi /Mehru wouldn’t allow it. A grave yard is by default a waqf property, even if it is reserved for a family or a group of people. The Islamic procedure involves granting the land to a moulvi or to a masjid who/which then follows the accepted ( by that group/sect Islamic rituals when it comes to burial. coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted November 27 Share Posted November 27 23 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Hopefully the act will be limited to 1) above and not 2). The clauses of survey should be abolished. It is like running a parallel government that surveys all land and starts claiming property based on a deed or usage for namaaz etc., and sometimes without any need for records. Are the proceedings / revenue from commercial properties owned by Wakf board audited by state to check if it is indeed used for charity or religious purposes? There are three levels of audit. One is by the Central Government, which is a once or twice in a decade. The State Waqf Board carries out its own audits. These are corroborated by Audits conducted by the State Government. The results of these audits are available in the public domain. Most of the auqaf in India are loss making 'enterprises'. coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 27 Share Posted November 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mariyam said: There are three levels of audit. One is by the Central Government, which is a once or twice in a decade. The State Waqf Board carries out its own audits. These are corroborated by Audits conducted by the State Government. The results of these audits are available in the public domain. Most of the auqaf in India are loss making 'enterprises'. Are those doing audit appointed by state are all Muslims ? Also, I know Waqf boards and Tribunals are all Muslims. They tend to be biased Edited November 27 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 28 Share Posted November 28 (edited) No amendment in winter session. JPC extended to budget session of 2025. Why ? Modi Why? Edited November 28 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted November 28 Share Posted November 28 30 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: No amendment in winter session. JPC extended to budget session of 2025. Why ? Modi Why? More of a strategic call. But it's coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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