Gollum Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, rangeelaraja said: Arjun played his best game and handed a stunning defeat to Abdusattarov. Now it’s between Gukesh and Pragg. Gukesh plays Arjun in the last round. If Gukesh doesn’t win today, there are chances that last game will be drawn by both and on equal points they will be rapid tiebreaks Pragg needs this win more than Gukesh. Things were somewhat quiet for him after his amazing run in previous WC. Anyway as long as wins I am happy. rangeelaraja 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 (edited) What a time for Arjun to get his first Wijk aan Zee Master win !!!! That too against Nodirbek. All but guaranteed an Indian winner after the near miss last edition. Edited February 1 by Gollum rangeelaraja 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangeelaraja Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 11 hours ago, Gollum said: Firouzja has all the tools to challenge for the crown but he is too eager to follow the Magnus train, doesn't have personality or ambition of his own, he is content if Magnus throws a few bits of praise his way, such people are forgotten in history. Rarely plays classical these days, just rapid/blitz, he won't develop this way. Magnus played so much classical in his formative years to reach the position he is in today, now misguiding youngsters by undermining classical just because he doesn't want the grind anymore. You summed it up so well - about Firouzja and him being a tool of Magnus for his propaganda. And also the fact that now that he has achieved everything that there is to achieve in classical chess, he is trying to undermine it, misguide youngsters for his vested financial interests. He says classical chess is not really the true test...then WTF did he play 5 championships ? Magnus doesn't have good people around him - he lacks decency and grace. Even Kasparov was a polarizing figure and a rebel, but he always had respect. Magnus does not. And even before he became a world champion for the first time in 2013, he was an obnoxious creature. Do you recollect - Magnus skipped the 2012 candidates ( that Gelfand won )...giving the reason that its unfair that Anand doesn't have to play the grinding candidates and just gets to defend his title. And what did Anand do ? He won 2014 candidates too, after he lost in 2013. So much difference in class and grace. Thats why Anand is universally admired and respected. Beyond his close circle, nobody has any admiration for Carlsen. Gollum and Muloghonto 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 (edited) Damnit, Carlsen has 8 Wijk aan Zee trophies. Anand second with 5 Aronian 4 Kasparov 3 Karpov 2 Topalov 2 Kramnik 1 Linares was another big supertournament but 2010 was its last edition, that's why Carlsen has never won it. Kasparov with the record there, 8 Linares triumphs. Anand and Ivanchuk tied second with 3 each. Karpov, Kramnik 2 each. It was Big 3 (like slams in tennis or majors in golf) with Dortmund rounding up the list, IIRC Anand is the only player with at least 3 victories in the Big 3 classical tournaments of chess. These are the events our boys should win more as @rangeelaraja said. Now we have Sinquefield Cup taking the place of Linares. Norway, Grenke are not legit because of rapid/armageddon mixing. Shamkir at one point looked like the next big thing but faded out. Till few years back we had Linares, Dortmund, Reggio Emilia, Tal Memorial, London Chess Classic, Bilbao, MTel (Sofia). Chennai Masters should aim to become the next big supertournament IMO. India can do it, we can in fact easily create 3-4 big classical tournaments. Edited February 1 by Gollum rangeelaraja 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 4 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: You summed it up so well - about Firouzja and him being a tool of Magnus for his propaganda. And also the fact that now that he has achieved everything that there is to achieve in classical chess, he is trying to undermine it, misguide youngsters for his vested financial interests. Exactly. Whatever Carlsen is today is because of classical chess and his 5 classical world titles, his record ELO rating. Even among peers, classical gets most weightage, similar to test cricket. You don't build your legacy and get compared with GOATs/ATGs just by being good in ODIs/T20Is or speed chess. 4 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: Do you recollect - Magnus skipped the 2012 candidates ( that Gelfand won )...giving the reason that its unfair that Anand doesn't have to play the grinding candidates and just gets to defend his title. IMO, psychologically he wasn't ready in 2012. Even Kasparov who coached him till a year back (2010 or '11, don't remember when their partnership ended) wasn't sure about Carlsen's state of mind and readiness back then, I have read almost all articles/interviews from that time period. If you remember even in 2013 candidates he was so shaky, won on a technicality despite him and Kramnik finishing on same points, choked his last game against Svidler. Kasparov who had a massive hate boner for Kramnik and love for his Norwegian pupil commented that Kramnik was the most deserving winner of that candidates. Winning candidates is sometimes tougher than the actual match....Anand/Gukesh won their candidates so convincingly unlike MC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangeelaraja Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 13 minutes ago, Gollum said: Damnit, Carlsen has 8 Wijk aan Zee trophies. Anand second with 5 Aronian 4 Kasparov 3 Karpov 2 Topalov 2 Kramnik 1 Linares was another big supertournament but 2010 was its last edition, that's why Carlsen has never won it. Kasparov with the record there, 8 Linares triumphs. Anand and Ivanchuk tied second with 3 each. Karpov, Kramnik 2 each. It was Big 3 (like slams in tennis or majors in golf) with Dortmund rounding up the list, IIRC Anand is the only player with at least 3 victories in the Big 3 classical tournaments of chess. These are the events our boys should win more as @rangeelaraja said. Now we have Sinquefield Cup taking the place of Linares. Norway, Grenke are not legit because of rapid/armageddon mixing. Shamkir at one point looked like the next big thing but faded out. Till few years back we had Linares, Dortmund, Reggio Emilia, Tal Memorial, London Chess Classic, Bilbao, MTel (Sofia). Chennai Masters should aim to become the next big supertournament IMO. India can do it, we can in fact easily create 3-4 big classical tournaments. I would put the World Cup and Grand Swiss too...they are both tickets to the candidates. They got Vidit ( Grand Swiss ) and Pragg ( World Cup ) ...into the candidates the last time. Gollum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 Just now, rangeelaraja said: I would put the World Cup and Grand Swiss too...they are both tickets to the candidates. They got Vidit ( Grand Swiss ) and Pragg ( World Cup ) ...into the candidates the last time. WC is one of my favorite events to follow. Sometimes excessive TBs can be irritating but otherwise very tough test, and democratic. Grand Swiss is important as well but not as difficult as WC IMO. And luck plays a bigger role in terms of who you draw and how much is in your control. Personally I would rate (in terms of importance) as follows: Classical World Championship Candidates Olympiad (more team focus) World Cup Wijk, Sinquefield World rapid, Grand Swiss Other classical tourneys, FIDE Grand Prix related events etc World blitz Other rapid/blitz OTB tourneys including Grand Chess Tour speed chess events like the Kolkata one <daylight> anything online Hope this stupid freestyle chess tour also flops. Not that I hate the format or concept, but the egos of these organizers (especially Bratsen) must be crushed and FIDE must reign supreme. rangeelaraja and randomGuy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 16 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: You summed it up so well - about Firouzja and him being a tool of Magnus for his propaganda. And also the fact that now that he has achieved everything that there is to achieve in classical chess, he is trying to undermine it, misguide youngsters for his vested financial interests. He says classical chess is not really the true test...then WTF did he play 5 championships ? Magnus doesn't have good people around him - he lacks decency and grace. Even Kasparov was a polarizing figure and a rebel, but he always had respect. Magnus does not. And even before he became a world champion for the first time in 2013, he was an obnoxious creature. Do you recollect - Magnus skipped the 2012 candidates ( that Gelfand won )...giving the reason that its unfair that Anand doesn't have to play the grinding candidates and just gets to defend his title. And what did Anand do ? He won 2014 candidates too, after he lost in 2013. So much difference in class and grace. Thats why Anand is universally admired and respected. Beyond his close circle, nobody has any admiration for Carlsen. I said this once, i will say again : magnus is undermining classical not just for his own financial interests, its also because classical is his weakest format as classical IS the hardest format. Exerting time control pressure on prepared lines for a NEW chess game never played ( aka this position has never been reached before by say move 10-15 etc) will make even an GM sweat bullets against an IM. Because thats just how chess works. Not all angles are explored. They cannot be yet, as the variations are in the trillions. This is why you have chess comentators like agadmador say routinely during commentary 'and now as of move xyz you have a completely new game' - as in THIS sequence of moves at move 11/12/10 etc have never happened before. This means, that you often DO get to prepare lines by going 'lets explore this move on move 10 that has never been made before, 10 moves deep and see if i can screw over the enemy- oh yes i can !!! yay- lets try' . This works WONDERS on classical chess because classical chess gives u time to think and come up with these prepared lines and improvise to these prepared lines and execute your attack. All the while it is making the other guy- even magnus - sweat bullets coz this postion has never been reached before, therefore they cannot pull a game from their memory and go via recollection, they gotta use their knoodles to calculate and tire themselves out, while u sit there humming a tune and knowing what the next 4 moves are coz u prepared this line. You dont get this aspect very often in blitz or rapids is because time pressure in this format is much more limited - players shut down lines much quicker/play scewy moves to counter your prepared lines, because speed is the name of the game and you only calculate 3-4 deep at best and play. So you dont end up in scenarios of where YOU are still playing classical chess with 30 min on the clock but your opponent is forced into speed chess mode coz he has 1 minute left on the clock scenarios. Magnus knows this, this is why he farms his classical rating so fastidiously and mostly dominates in the speed chess version, where his vast grind in classical in the formative years plus his autistic pattern recognition tendencies give him a dominant edge over the field. No one is gonna challenge him in speed chess, much like how vishy was a god of speed chess till his 40s - for another decade or so, because no one has the above skillset to the max as Magnus does. But this skillset is not as dominant in classical format, due to the strategies involving time control pressure - which for eg is how Gukesh imo really beat Ding : Ding is a known 'slow' player and Gukesh mostly took slightly sub-optimal lines in mid game and endgame to try and win but natural consequence of this on a naturally slow player is they slow down some more and enter time control hell. Which is where Gukesh consistently put Ding and Ding finally cracked in the most spectacular way in world championship history. This is why Magnus is so butthurt about classical format- his strengths dont translate as strongly and this is a vulnerability/tactics every classical format player has to deal with to succeed and eventually this is where they end up losing their dominance in ( time vs the opponents). And funny thing most people dont know is, Magnus isnt as dominant in pure classical format as most people think - most of his classical titles have come in speed/rapid tie break formats. This is also why Magnus has always been '* classical'. It doesnt play to his strengths as much. What magnus doesnt realize though, is he isnt a kasparov. he is a bobby fischer. By that i mean, he isnt taking takkar with FIDE while being the undisputed champ from the dominant nation in chess at a time where chess = 50% soviet union/CIS countries who still act like soviets in chess ( as was case in 90s) and 50% everyone else. He is bobby fischer as in he is sole guy genius of a middling chess base/power taking takkar with FIDE while FIDE has a YUUUGE growth base in India due to India being a dominant player now -amongst 2-3 other nations i think ( USA and Russia? in top 100? not sure), combined with far more popularity of chess in india than in usa, magnus is taking takkar as the wrong guy at the wrong time. Everyone with a brain knows this, this is also why Vishy is playing it cool, because he knows that magnus has to be placated for ~ 3-4 years max and let this coiterie of Indian teenage stars age a bit and get more accustomed to the grind. Then Chess can unceremoniously give him the dump and forget him like it forgot Fischer. That is why i think FIDE is playing a love-hate game with Magnus but the hammer will drop on him soon. rangeelaraja 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 (edited) Back and forth game, both sides had winning chances, but Gukesh draws against Van Foreest with black. Edited February 1 by Gollum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangeelaraja Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) @Muloghonto @Gollum I asked an LLM how many chessgames are theorotically possible : Below is the answer I received. Look at the number of possible games after 4 moves---318Million ......this is why chess opening lines preparation is such a huge thing. The number of possible chess games is astronomically large. Here are some key estimates: After 1 move (1 ply per player): There are 20 possible first moves (16 pawn moves + 4 knight moves). After 2 moves (2 plies per player): Around 400 possible games exist. After 3 moves (3 plies per player): About 121,000 possible games. After 4 moves (4 plies per player): Around 318 million possible games. After 40 moves (~80 plies per player, average game length): The estimated number of possible chess games surpasses 10^120. This number is called the Shannon Number, named after Claude Shannon. The Upper Bound – The Game-Tree Complexity Using mathematical estimation, the number of possible distinct chess games is around: 10^120 For comparison: The estimated number of atoms in the observable universe is around 10^80. The number of possible legal board positions is roughly 10^43, significantly smaller than the number of full games. Takeaways Chess is computationally intractable; brute-force calculation of all possible games is not feasible. Despite the vast number of possibilities, strong AI engines (like Stockfish and AlphaZero) use heuristics and deep search to evaluate positions effectively. The game remains complex and fascinating, with infinite strategic depth. Edited February 1 by rangeelaraja Muloghonto and Gollum 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangeelaraja Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 59 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: I said this once, i will say again : magnus is undermining classical not just for his own financial interests, its also because classical is his weakest format as classical IS the hardest format. Exerting time control pressure on prepared lines for a NEW chess game never played ( aka this position has never been reached before by say move 10-15 etc) will make even an GM sweat bullets against an IM. See my above post....Magnus' argument is ...classical chess is just about memorizing opening lines and coming in with deep preparation and its not about true chess skills. Folks with great memory who can remember 100s of possible lines will have an advantage so long as their middle game positional play is super GM level ( 2700+ level ) He feels he is a "natural " and so rapid and blitz are more suited to him. In my opinion thats BS. How one counters deep preparation with counter play and playing unconventional lines and still not screwing it up is a major skill. He knows and has openly admitted the young generation Indian players calculate deep lines ..possibly much better than him and are hungrier. He is scared to lose and tarnish his legacy. Muloghonto and New guy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 (edited) 14 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: @Muloghonto @Gollum I asked an LLM how many chessgames are theorotically possible : Below is the answer I received. Look at the number of possible games after 4 moves---318Million ......this is why chess opening lines preparation is such a huge thing. The number of possible chess games is astronomically large. Here are some key estimates: After 1 move (1 ply per player): There are 20 possible first moves (16 pawn moves + 4 knight moves). After 2 moves (2 plies per player): Around 400 possible games exist. After 3 moves (3 plies per player): About 121,000 possible games. After 4 moves (4 plies per player): Around 318 million possible games. After 40 moves (~80 plies per player, average game length): The estimated number of possible chess games surpasses 10^120. This number is called the Shannon Number, named after Claude Shannon. The Upper Bound – The Game-Tree Complexity Using mathematical estimation, the number of possible distinct chess games is around: 10^120 For comparison: The estimated number of atoms in the observable universe is around 10^80. The number of possible legal board positions is roughly 10^43, significantly smaller than the number of full games. Takeaways Chess is computationally intractable; brute-force calculation of all possible games is not feasible. Despite the vast number of possibilities, strong AI engines (like Stockfish and AlphaZero) use heuristics and deep search to evaluate positions effectively. The game remains complex and fascinating, with infinite strategic depth. That is why talks about death of classical chess are so funny. Capablanca predicted the draw death of chess in 1920s, and even came up with a new format with 2 extra pieces. In 2025 here we are and classical is alive and kicking with so many results, draw % goes up and down in phases (like PC conversion in field hockey, now in a lull...or overuse of Berlin defence at top level which made e4 games boring for a while), but great players eventually work it out, they are supposed to. I am familiar with Shannon number. That is why I find similarity between chess and astrophysics/astronomy, both fields essentially infinite, unsolvable and will keep brightest humans busy for eternity. Magnus is just spouting BS for his agenda, at the very minimum classical chess is going nowhere till end of this century. And even if computers crack the game (not that easy despite what some delusional folks say), doesn't mean humans should stop playing, because one lifetime is not enough to even grasp 0.00000.....0000001% of the complexity of the game. And there is always fascination with seeing how much humans can stretch themselves, automobiles surpassed peak human top speed by early 19th century, but still whole planet turns up for those 10 seconds of 100m dash in Olympics with bated breath. As recent nobel laureate (chemistry) and DeepMind boss said I agree that chess is likely solvable, but that doesn't mean it won't still be very fun for humans to play for a long time yet. It's also great training for the mind and for kids to learn it at school. — Demis Hassabis (@demishassabis) December 14, 2024 Edited February 2 by Gollum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 Stockfish developer once said everyone sucks at chess, Stockfish and AlphaZero suck a bit less. And that is true, even computers have very little idea about the complexity of chess, if you follow computer chess championships see how every generation of chess computers has made a dramatic leap in playing strength, sky is the limit and there is continuous process of improvement....from brute force methods to Monte Carlo Tree Search to incorporating neural networks. There is a whole dedicated field for computer chess pioneered by Ken Thompson (father of Unix OS, co-inventor of C) and likeminded geniuses in the 80s. Most of the greats are humble, self aware and know human limitations, even the arrogant Kasparov. Then there is paanchvi fail Magnus Carlsen telling us how classical chess is dead, how opening theory has made it unplayable blah blah. This manchild would lose out of the opening against a 2000s era chess engine (Fritz/Houdini) mounted on a basic phone. But has the nerve to pretend he is bigger than the game. I would pay money to watch this guy take on even a primitive chess engine and show the world how dead the game is. Does he have the guts? Indian youngsters, Nodirbek etc. don't whine. They have made peace with the fact that they must go deeper, work harder to make advancement in chess theory and take the game to the next level. Something the lazy superstar doesn't want to do, he fears the grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangeelaraja Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Arjun crushes Gukesh( who had the advantage of white pieces ) with even more brute force than he crushed Abdusattarov. Making a strong statement here… that he did make it to 2800 by just beating sub 2700 players. Looks like Pragg will win the tournament now as he just needs a draw against Keymer. Arjun’s turnaround is something… from losing almost every game to crushing the 2 red hot favorites to win. A bit like Ivanchuk… who would play below his high standards for most of the tournament and then beat the strongest player like he is a nobody. randomGuy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said: Arjun crushes Gukesh( who had the advantage of white pieces ) with even more brute force than he crushed Abdusattarov. Making a strong statement here… that he did make it to 2800 by just beating sub 2700 players. Looks like Pragg will win the tournament now as he just needs a draw against Keymer. Arjun’s turnaround is something… from losing almost every game to crushing the 2 red hot favorites to win. A bit like Ivanchuk… who would play below his high standards for most of the tournament and then beat the strongest player like he is a nobody. Pragg n caruana also in losing positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangeelaraja Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Hoping that Pragg wins. It will go to tiebreaks if Pragg loses to Keymer. Pragg needs it more than Gukesh who already has WC under his belt. randomGuy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 Pragg champion. India 1, 2. Arjun also finished strongly. Lord and randomGuy 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 Second time in a row Gukesh has lost Wijk due to TBs. Feel for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 I will say this again: classical chess cannot have non classical tiebreaker. That ruins the achievement. I dunno what it should be, but classical with speed tiebreaker is like breaking a test draw with T20 and calling the best T20 batter in your test team as the best test batter coz he wins all the T20 tiebreaker. Like a real world example would be imagine Yuvraj Singh being the best test batter in Indian team coz he is good enough to get into Indian test team but is the babbar sher of T20 for India back then and every single draw test becomes wins coz yuvy bats like crazy in the T20 tiebreaker. Therefore he is highest Indian rated test batter. That's the bullshit we are dealing with here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 2 hours ago, Muloghonto said: I will say this again: classical chess cannot have non classical tiebreaker. That ruins the achievement. I dunno what it should be, but classical with speed tiebreaker is like breaking a test draw with T20 and calling the best T20 batter in your test team as the best test batter coz he wins all the T20 tiebreaker. Like a real world example would be imagine Yuvraj Singh being the best test batter in Indian team coz he is good enough to get into Indian test team but is the babbar sher of T20 for India back then and every single draw test becomes wins coz yuvy bats like crazy in the T20 tiebreaker. Therefore he is highest Indian rated test batter. That's the bullshit we are dealing with here. How else do you break a deadlock? In football, hockey we have shootouts. You can have wins with black, more wins (Candidates 2013) etc. as TBs, but again people can make similar arguments. Personally prefer the SB system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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