Lone Wolf Posted March 11 Posted March 11 53 minutes ago, Vilander said: It's like midieval times , loot gold and abuse women. Absolute objectification of women. Only solution was forced Sterilization of Dehati and Tribal areas. Dehat would have vanished and India would not have been handicapped by their burden. No more ladli behen, no more freebies. A booming economy. Vicks57 1
Muloghonto Posted March 11 Posted March 11 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: Only solution was forced Sterilization of Dehati and Tribal areas. Dehat would have vanished and India would not have been handicapped by their burden. No more ladli behen, no more freebies. A booming economy. Dehat has far less rape problem than Indian cities. Rape promotion is a liberal phenomena. They will make right noises about rape in media but systematically make it harder for women to get justice and perps will systematically get less and less sentencing. This is the liberal rape promotion model that's been tried and tested in the west : since 1980s, western rape rate has mushroomed to 4x the rate and justice rate ( as in % convictions per case in court) dropped to below 5%.... India bats at 27% btw. And the same trend we see in India with liberal rape promotion ideology. Edited March 11 by Muloghonto
Mariyam Posted March 11 Posted March 11 18 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Stop giving air to these kind of news. These are not news items, these are propaganda items to defame India. Look at western countries : 50 times higher per capita rape rate. Yet you don't see their media filling up their pages about western rape hell stories. Or maybe we are much safer place for women than rapey libbu west precisely because we make huge deal outta these stories. So pick your poison lol There are many of us who live in India and don't give two hoots about what western media's portrayal or if or not they have an agenda. India has a problem with rape. Period. India has a problem with rape and murder. Period. Frame of reference is India from the 70s and 80s, although not filing an FIRs was a bigger issue then. There is a societal issue and it needs be addressed. There is a serious policing and evidence gathering issue and that needs to be adressed. States with high conviction rates have lowest rape and murder rates. There is a co-relation. Kerala & Mizoram for example. There is serious issue with our justice dispensing system and that needs to be adressed. And the three are inter related. Instead of making 300 more nukes which don't even make us more secure than what we currently are, if we could improve the quality of policing and justice dispensation we would truly be on the road to be a super power. I6MTW, Vilander, Vicks57 and 2 others 1 4
Muloghonto Posted March 11 Posted March 11 34 minutes ago, Mariyam said: There are many of us who live in India and don't give two hoots about what western media's portrayal or if or not they have an agenda. India has a problem with rape. Period. India has a problem with rape and murder. Period. Frame of reference is India from the 70s and 80s, although not filing an FIRs was a bigger issue then. There is a societal issue and it needs be addressed. There is a serious policing and evidence gathering issue and that needs to be adressed. States with high conviction rates have lowest rape and murder rates. There is a co-relation. Kerala & Mizoram for example. There is serious issue with our justice dispensing system and that needs to be adressed. And the three are inter related. Instead of making 300 more nukes which don't even make us more secure than what we currently are, if we could improve the quality of policing and justice dispensation we would truly be on the road to be a super power. How does India have a problem with rape and murder when it's 50% below global mean averages ?? Or are going with ' looks good as slogan but doesn't work in real life' view of ' 1 murder Is 1 too many' ?? How is it police gathering and justice issue, when India bats at 50% above global median for conviction rate for rape ??
Vilander Posted March 11 Author Posted March 11 5 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Why not ?? Where are you when dravidian supremacist derails illegal immigration into north vs south ?? What good for the goose, is good for the gander. Chee chee on the south. What about ism. Fallacy. Stick to the topic pls
Muloghonto Posted March 11 Posted March 11 8 minutes ago, Vilander said: What about ism. Fallacy. Stick to the topic pls Whataboutism isn't a fallacy. That's illogical western nonsense. Whataboutism is the objective benchmark for logical consistency. Hence the saying what's good for the goose is good for the gander. A literal saying about whataboutism I English language.
Mariyam Posted March 11 Posted March 11 (edited) 4 hours ago, Muloghonto said: How does India have a problem with rape and murder when it's 50% below global mean averages ?? Or are going with ' looks good as slogan but doesn't work in real life' view of ' 1 murder Is 1 too many' ?? How is it police gathering and justice issue, when India bats at 50% above global median for conviction rate for rape ?? You've misunderstood my post. And with all due respect to you ( and I do have a fair bit of respect), your numbers are either incorrect and/or you have simply misunderstood the statistics. To begin with, when I say rape and murder, I mean rape followed by murder of the victim. India (according to the national bureau of crime records) has a very low conviction rate. You are looking at a conviction rate of 12% as against ~26% for rape. Among all serious crimes, this is the least. Murder (without rape) has a ~30% conviction rate. You keep bringing conviction rates vis a vis other countries. That is not my benchmark. My benchmark is against India of the yore. For rape, The conviction rates were 44.3 percent in 1973, 37.7 percent in 1983, 26.9 percent in 2009, 26.6 percent in 2010 and 26.4 percent in 2011. See a trend? We aren't solving as many cases as we did earlier and that needs some course correction. Also, successive Indian governments have defined conviction rates in a very strange manner. It is by design and not by default. Its in on a rolling window average. Let me give you an example. Say there were 100 robberies reported in 1947 and 10 were convicted we have a 10% conviction rate. In 1948 you had another 100 robberies reported and 8 were convicted, you have a 9% conviction rate ( 18 convictions out of 200) for 1948. in 1949 also 100 robberies were reported and there were 3 convictions, the conviction rate is 7% ( 21 convictions out of 300) and so on. And for the most of the period since our independence, marital rape wasn't counted as rape. By contrast, In the UK, convictions percentages are counted on a 10 year window. Meaning if a conviction is handed 11 years after the crime, it is counted as miscarriage of justice. So what we are seeing is that the current number for rape convictions in India is around 26% which means that of all FIRs on rape since 1947/1948, 26% of the cases have resulted in a conviction. It is a terrible statistic. No matter whichever way you look at it. Many of the victims gets justice after years. The average 'wait' time for 'justice' for rape cases is around 8-9 years. There is another statistic that the NBCR tracks but never reports. Pendency percentage. Rape cases have a pendency percentage of 90-96% every year for the last 15 years. That means that every year ( or perhaps the window is 2 years, need to re check) between 90-96% of the FIRs on rape haven't resulted in any conviction. We have a problem. It needs to be acknowledged and sorted at a societal level. What happens in the US or Timbuktu is irrelevant. Their methods of statistics are different, and perhaps not manipulative as ours. India of today is not as safe as the India of 40 years ago, if official figures are to be believed. That is what matters. My mother has been a criminal lawyer (of some repute) for more than 4 decades. She would have seen a handful of rape cases solved in a timely manner during her tenure. My lawyering days are behind me, but long story short, I used to volunteer with Flavia Agnes. Did litigation for cases of domestic abuse. There were many colleagues who litigated for more serious stuff: rape cases and again there were hardly any convictions. About the need for better policing, don't even get me started on that. Edited March 11 by Mariyam Muloghonto, I6MTW, Vilander and 2 others 1 4
Muloghonto Posted March 11 Posted March 11 23 minutes ago, Mariyam said: You've misunderstood my post. And with all due respect to you ( and I do have a fair bit of respect), your numbers are either incorrect and/or you have simply misunderstood the statistics. To begin with, when I say rape and murder, I mean rape followed by murder of the victim. India (according to the national bureau of crime records) has a very low conviction rate. You are looking at a conviction rate of 12% as against ~26% for rape. Among all serious crimes, this is the least. Murder (without rape) has a ~30% conviction rate. You keep bringing conviction rates vis a vis other countries. That is not my benchmark. My benchmark is against India of the yore. For rape, The conviction rates were 44.3 percent in 1973, 37.7 percent in 1983, 26.9 percent in 2009, 26.6 percent in 2010 and 26.4 percent in 2011. See a trend? We aren't solving as many cases as we did earlier and that needs some course correction. Also, successive Indian governments have defined conviction rates in a very strange manner. It is by design and not by default. Its in on a rolling window average. Let me give you an example. Say there were 100 robberies reported in 1947 and 10 were convicted we have a 10% conviction rate. In 1948 you had another 100 robberies reported and 8 were convicted, you have a 9% conviction rate ( 18 convictions out of 200) for 1948. in 1949 also 100 robberies were reported and there were 3 convictions, the conviction rate is 7% ( 21 convictions out of 300) and so on. And for the most of the period since our independence, marital rape wasn't counted as rape. By contrast, In the UK, convictions percentages are counted on a 10 year window. Meaning if a conviction is handed 11 years after the crime, it is counted as miscarriage of justice. So what we are seeing is that the current number for rape convictions in India is around 26% which means that of all FIRs on rape since 1947/1948, 26% of the cases have resulted in a conviction. It is a terrible statistic. No matter whichever way you look at it. Many of the victims gets justice after years. The average 'wait' time for 'justice' for rape cases is around 8-9 years. There is another statistic that the NBCR tracks but never reports. Pendency percentage. Rape cases have a pendency percentage of 90-96% every year for the last 15 years. That means that every year ( or perhaps the window is 2 years, need to re check) between 90-96% of the FIRs on rape haven't resulted in any conviction. We have a problem. It needs to be acknowledged and sorted at a societal level. What happens in the US or Timbuktu is irrelevant. Their methods of statistics are different, and perhaps not manipulative as ours. India of today is not as safe as the India of 40 years ago, if official figures are to be believed. That is what matters. My mother has been a criminal lawyer (of some repute) for more than 4 decades. She would have seen a handful of rape cases solved in a timely manner during her tenure. My lawyering days are behind me, but long story short, I used to volunteer with Flavia Agnes. Did litigation for cases of domestic abuse. There were many colleagues who litigated for more serious stuff: rape cases and again there were hardly any convictions. About the need for better policing, don't even get me started on that. I did misread you. When you said murder and rape, I saw them as two separate statistics, not murder cum rape. To me, pendency problem is resource problem, not justice problem: It means there aren't sufficient courts and judges, not that the system doesn't work, because as I said, india returns conviction rate of 27% for rape cases that go to court, while global average is less than 10% . I am failing to see how 'India has a rape problem' when India is literally waaaay above median rape rate per capita and conviction rate... . Math no worky for that conclusion.
EnterTheVoid Posted March 12 Posted March 12 9 hours ago, Mariyam said: There are many of us who live in India and don't give two hoots about what western media's portrayal or if or not they have an agenda. India has a problem with rape. Period. India has a problem with rape and murder. Period. Frame of reference is India from the 70s and 80s, although not filing an FIRs was a bigger issue then. There is a societal issue and it needs be addressed. There is a serious policing and evidence gathering issue and that needs to be adressed. States with high conviction rates have lowest rape and murder rates. There is a co-relation. Kerala & Mizoram for example. There is serious issue with our justice dispensing system and that needs to be adressed. And the three are inter related. Instead of making 300 more nukes which don't even make us more secure than what we currently are, if we could improve the quality of policing and justice dispensation we would truly be on the road to be a super power. Well said. Great job exposing the clowns using gymnastics on stats to obfuscate the problem. Vilander 1
Vilander Posted March 12 Author Posted March 12 8 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Whataboutism isn't a fallacy. That's illogical western nonsense. Whataboutism is the objective benchmark for logical consistency. Hence the saying what's good for the goose is good for the gander. A literal saying about whataboutism I English language. I have no interest in argument. Read more and improve your understanding, cheers.
EnterTheVoid Posted March 12 Posted March 12 Using stats to show that 'India does not have a rape problem' is a red herring, if there was ever one. You could also use stats to show that Mogadishu, Somalia is safer than Chicago. Let's see if anyone buys it. Vilander 1
coffee_rules Posted March 12 Posted March 12 7 hours ago, Muloghonto said: I did misread you. When you said murder and rape, I saw them as two separate statistics, not murder cum rape. To me, pendency problem is resource problem, not justice problem: It means there aren't sufficient courts and judges, not that the system doesn't work, because as I said, india returns conviction rate of 27% for rape cases that go to court, while global average is less than 10% . I am failing to see how 'India has a rape problem' when India is literally waaaay above median rape rate per capita and conviction rate... . Math no worky for that conclusion. India has a women safety problem. No matter what stats say, I will not let my female family member take uber from the airport at 2am alone. I6MTW, Vilander, EnterTheVoid and 3 others 1 5
bharathh Posted March 12 Posted March 12 5 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: India has a women safety problem. No matter what stats say, I will not let my female family member take uber from the airport at 2am alone. That's a perception problem. My wife travels quite a bit and comes back home from the airport/goes to the airport by cab at all times of the day/night. Would I want her to go to Coxtown/Benson town/Shivaji by herself - no. That said, the same can be said of any American city downtown. Noone would go by themselves into dt (even Boston Southside) without trepidation. Every city in India is less dangerous than San Fran, Detroit, Miami, Atlanta, Houston etc. coffee_rules 1
coffee_rules Posted March 12 Posted March 12 11 minutes ago, bharathh said: That's a perception problem. My wife travels quite a bit and comes back home from the airport/goes to the airport by cab at all times of the day/night. Would I want her to go to Coxtown/Benson town/Shivaji by herself - no. That said, the same can be said of any American city downtown. Noone would go by themselves into dt (even Boston Southside) without trepidation. Every city in India is less dangerous than San Fran, Detroit, Miami, Atlanta, Houston etc. maybe , I am ok during daytime, but don’t have the guts say at 2 am. You can’t deny that there is a problem in India with women living alone. If we visit regularly, then maybe we get used it. But having read about incidents in Hyd, Delhi, Bangalore, it’ll be a big step. We can’t do comparison across countries, bad things happen everywhere, it’s better to be cautious. Vickydev and EnterTheVoid 2
Vilander Posted March 12 Author Posted March 12 Chemical castration for the accused in this case would be a good start.
Stan AF Posted March 12 Posted March 12 https://www.instagram.com/reel/DHD521UseFO/?igsh=bGNzNWkyZDY5anJj Mariyam and Vicks57 2
bharathh Posted March 12 Posted March 12 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: maybe , I am ok during daytime, but don’t have the guts say at 2 am. You can’t deny that there is a problem in India with women living alone. If we visit regularly, then maybe we get used it. But having read about incidents in Hyd, Delhi, Bangalore, it’ll be a big step. We can’t do comparison across countries, bad things happen everywhere, it’s better to be cautious. If the US or any other country published articles on the number of women related issues daily - there would be an uproar there as well. The good thing and bad thing is the volume of news articles we have on the topic. Not saying everything is great. Just stating that this issue is overblown. coffee_rules 1
Lone Wolf Posted March 12 Posted March 12 (edited) Salute to this hero A middle class law abiding taxpayer living in Vishwagorilla land om Shanti Edited March 12 by Lone Wolf Mariyam and diga 1 1
AshVin Posted March 12 Posted March 12 What is wrong with India is that a section of Indians whom the state sees as historically oppressed are in fact not fit for any decent civilization. Should be made into fertilizer instead of mollycoddling them with freebies. Vicks57 1
Muloghonto Posted March 12 Posted March 12 9 hours ago, EnterTheVoid said: Using stats to show that 'India does not have a rape problem' is a red herring, if there was ever one. You could also use stats to show that Mogadishu, Somalia is safer than Chicago. Let's see if anyone buys it. It isn't a red herring when stats are divergent by more than an order of magnitude. If Mogadishu had ten times or more lower crime rate than Chicago, then yes, it DOES mean that all the nonsense copes about underreporting and **** is just nonsense and cannot explain data divergence to thi ls degree and Mogadishu being worse than Chicago is propaganda, not facts. India is wàaaaaaaaaay too safe for women compared to the west for it to be a red herring, expecially when Indian rape rate is just median average for Asia. We are 15 times less rapey than usa per capita. 40 times less than uk. 80 times less than rapistan of Scandinavia and no, it's not due to Muslims, because Sweden was 2nd worst in the world at rape per capita in 2000, back when 97% of Sweden was white. Whoever told u that 40-50 times difference in rape rate is due to Muh reporting rate flat out lied and failed math. Period
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