Just a Kuldeep Sen thread.

[rkt.india]

30 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Annual kuldeep sen thread? lol Seriously if you ask me talent cannot be contained. Arshdeep is a great example.

Even Kuldeep got picked for the country but got injured in the first game itself and struggling with injuries since then. 

[singhvivek141]

21 hours ago, Stan AF said:

Umran Malik, another forgotten prodigy by ICF

If I remember clearly, some folks were calling out Prasidh Krishna too as another ICF hype.

Those posters are nowhere to be seen since BGT.

[singhvivek141]

15 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Annual kuldeep sen thread? lol Seriously if you ask me talent cannot be contained. Arshdeep is a great example.

Agree...

But sometimes a bit of luck and guidance does wonders.

Praisdh has bowled exceptionally well so far. Maybe Kuldeep Sen too needs a bit of that.

[rollingstoned]

2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Agree...

But sometimes a bit of luck and guidance does wonders.

Praisdh has bowled exceptionally well so far. Maybe Kuldeep Sen too needs a bit of that.

Rest, right guidance, luck with injuries and of course luck to get picked at the right time for the team all have to come together so bowler can become regulars for India. And even then there will be a learning curve and people will call them frauds.  

[Stan AF]

2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

If I remember clearly, some folks were calling out Prasidh Krishna too as another ICF hype.

Those posters are nowhere to be seen since BGT.

Just because he's doing well now , doesn't mean he wasn't shittt before.

 

 

Same goes to siraj. He was dropped for a good reason.

[Stan AF]

ICF used to regularly hype the hell out of kuldeep yadav as well.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, Stan AF said:

Just because he's doing well now , doesn't mean he wasn't shittt before.

 

 

Same goes to siraj. He was dropped for a good reason.

It's a form thing.

Prasidh has good numbers in ODI's which he played before tests.

 

He started to struggle in SA and series before that and then got injured. Which means he wasnt 100%.

 

Now he is recovered, and you can see the difference. Was bowling 140's in BGT and then hitting his peak pace here.

 

Fast bowlers will generally be more injury prone as it has more impact on the body. Thats where proper rest, rotation is important for them. 

 

 

[Suhaan]

2 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

Rest, right guidance, luck with injuries and of course luck to get picked at the right time for the team all have to come together so bowler can become regulars for India. And even then there will be a learning curve and people will call them frauds.  

Indian pacers barring Bumrah and Shami ,tend to learn art of fast bowling late

This is a norm since ages,from grass root level to FC level they don't get proper fast bowling coaches to teach them nuances

Prasidh for a change looks good,but he has surely some mental block

 

[singhvivek141]

33 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Indian pacers barring Bumrah and Shami ,tend to learn art of fast bowling late

This is a norm since ages,from grass root level to FC level they don't get proper fast bowling coaches to teach them nuances

Prasidh for a change looks good,but he has surely some mental block

 

Problem is with the coaching mentality.

 

For any bowler, the key is the setup the batter and them trap him. At times this strategy go for runs coz not all plans will work.

 

Fast bowlers, as they're a rarity. Coaches simply are unsure on how to help them in setting up fields. For an express fast bowler, its important that he should have a straight third man all the time to cover for the edges. Hitting them straight down the ground isn't easy.

 

Coaches, mostly work with trundlers and hence they don't understand these nuances, and thus call the fast bowler erratic and discourage them at every level. (I had faced this issue in my playing days).

 

It's only when these fast bowlers get proper guidance (and become somewhat a senior themselves), they start asking captain for the fields they would need.

 

Dhoni is a prime example who will setup the field first and then ask the spinners/trundlers to follow him. Umesh couldn't do that and hence was ridiculed and discarded. Only, under Kohli Umesh got some support and he was able to show his brilliance at occasions.

[maniac]

8 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

If I remember clearly, some folks were calling out Prasidh Krishna too as another ICF hype.

Those posters are nowhere to be seen since BGT.

You can’t compare Prasidh with Umran or Kuldeep. 3 different scenarios.

 

Prasidh was marked as a talent way back as he had height, pace and basic raw skills and impressed in domestics. Had ups and downs but was developed upon. He also plays for a very strong domestic structure like Karnataka. He also worked on his flaws and has come back a better bowler.

 

Umran burst on the scene only thanks to IPL. He plays for a weak domestic team so no one knew him but he impressed with raw express pace. The hope was he would add other skills to the pace. Unfortunately looks like he never took his game to next level. He is dropped and disappeared from the face of earth.

 

Kuldeep is a different scenario. Clearly people on here who follow regular domestics rate him. Maybe he is good. However whenever I saw him in IPL or internationals, he didn’t have the stamina to sustain and neither his pace or skills looked extraordinary. on top of that he looked out of shape, overawed by pressure  and injury prone. However if franchises are still backing him, maybe he has some positives.

 

you can’t generalize everyone.

[Nikhil_cric]

6 hours ago, Stan AF said:

Just because he's doing well now , doesn't mean he wasn't shittt before.

 

 

Same goes to siraj. He was dropped for a good reason.

Nobody is talking about current performance. It's about judging potential. The likes of Prasidh and even Sen have higher ceilings than random domestic trundlers 

[vvvslaxman]

If he is destined to do well for India he will. It is more competitive than ever before. Look at Harshit Rana and his rise. He alredy played tests in Australia.  You need a bit of attitude, fire in the belly to stand out. 

[singhvivek141]

3 hours ago, maniac said:

You can’t compare Prasidh with Umran or Kuldeep. 3 different scenarios.

 

Prasidh was marked as a talent way back as he had height, pace and basic raw skills and impressed in domestics. Had ups and downs but was developed upon. He also plays for a very strong domestic structure like Karnataka. He also worked on his flaws and has come back a better bowler.

 

Umran burst on the scene only thanks to IPL. He plays for a weak domestic team so no one knew him but he impressed with raw express pace. The hope was he would add other skills to the pace. Unfortunately looks like he never took his game to next level. He is dropped and disappeared from the face of earth.

 

Kuldeep is a different scenario. Clearly people on here who follow regular domestics rate him. Maybe he is good. However whenever I saw him in IPL or internationals, he didn’t have the stamina to sustain and neither his pace or skills looked extraordinary. on top of that he looked out of shape, overawed by pressure  and injury prone. However if franchises are still backing him, maybe he has some positives.

 

you can’t generalize everyone.

 

For Umran, his numbers in internationals are not bad. Infact his avg in ODI is better than Bhuvaneshwar Kumar, he is a wicket taker.

His numbers in T20 too are good, and its not minnow bashing.

 

Just because IPL franchise don't show confidence in him, it doesn't mean he is a bad bowler. You can argue that maybe others are better, but that doesn't make him bad.

 

Sen too is a domestic veteran. Has the ability to bowl long spells, just before IPL he played Ranji bowled 28 overs in a game vs UP. Plus Sen is definitely not out of shape, maybe you're confusing him with someone else. I agree he may get overawed by the pressure, some players need bit more time to get accustomed. Specially when they are not playing regularly.

 

I have seen Sen, Umran & Mukesh in 2022 Irani Trophy bowling in tandom (captained by Vihari). Sen was the one who was bowling overs after overs in the heat of Rajkot with old ball when pitch lost the moisture, Mukesh bowled with new ball and then didn't come back for a long period. Umran was used sporadically and mostly vs tailenders.

 

 

[Lord]

3 hours ago, maniac said:

You can’t compare Prasidh with Umran or Kuldeep. 3 different scenarios.

 

Prasidh was marked as a talent way back as he had height, pace and basic raw skills and impressed in domestics. Had ups and downs but was developed upon. He also plays for a very strong domestic structure like Karnataka. He also worked on his flaws and has come back a better bowler.

 

Umran burst on the scene only thanks to IPL. He plays for a weak domestic team so no one knew him but he impressed with raw express pace. The hope was he would add other skills to the pace. Unfortunately looks like he never took his game to next level. He is dropped and disappeared from the face of earth.

 

Kuldeep is a different scenario. Clearly people on here who follow regular domestics rate him. Maybe he is good. However whenever I saw him in IPL or internationals, he didn’t have the stamina to sustain and neither his pace or skills looked extraordinary. on top of that he looked out of shape, overawed by pressure  and injury prone. However if franchises are still backing him, maybe he has some positives.

 

you can’t generalize everyone.

 

Most rate Sen and Umran in comparison to trundlers only. 

[maniac]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

For Umran, his numbers in internationals are not bad. Infact his avg in ODI is better than Bhuvaneshwar Kumar, he is a wicket taker.

His numbers in T20 too are good, and its not minnow bashing.

 

 

Sen too is a domestic veteran. Has the ability to bowl long spells, just before IPL he played Ranji bowled 28 overs in a game vs UP. Plus Sen is definitely not out of shape, maybe you're confusing him with someone else. I agree he may get overawed by the pressure, some players need bit more time to get accustomed. Specially when they are not playing regularly

 

point 1: proof that numbers are not everything. No one with basic cricket  acumen  will pick a in-form Bhuvi over Umran. Umran role is as the enforcer to take wickets in the middle. Bhuvi’s role is swing with new ball and death bowling. Umran wasn’t impressive despite the wickets he may have gotten. The coaching staff etc look at a lot of things. Fielding, commitment, sticking to plan, implementation of skills according to situation etc.

 

point 2- Sen being out of shape meaning not that he looks like Azam Khan, after 1-2 overs he was huffing and puffing and trundling and bowling half volleys. Avesh had the same issue but he has improved his fitness some what. While Avesh is average I have not seen anything from Kuldeep at IPL or brief international stint where I can conclude he is better than Akashdeep, Avesh or Mukesh. I trust some folks who regularly follow domestics on ICF so if they rate him maybe he has something there but wouldn’t be hopeful given he is 28.

[maniac]

43 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Most rate Sen and Umran in comparison to trundlers only. 

Umran and Sen are apples to oranges. Umran had express pace that made him standout. 150+
 

sen also bowls at 140+ in T20 no different from Avesh and a few others. However not seen him maintain it unlike Umran or Mayank. He huffs and puffs after 2 effort balls. Also doesn’t seem to handle pressure well.

Edited April 10 by maniac

[Lord]

14 minutes ago, maniac said:

Umran and Sen are apples to oranges. Umran had express pace that made him standout. 150+
 

sen also bowls at 140+ in T20 no different from Avesh and a few others. However not seen him maintain it unlike Umran or Mayank. He huffs and puffs after 2 effort balls. Also doesn’t seem to handle pressure well.

 

What? no

 

Sen bowled highest of 147.4 last year IIRC and regularly hit 140s. That is very different from Avesh hitting 140 with one odd ball and still struggling for control

 

https://www.hotstar.com/in/sports/cricket/rr-vs-gt-sens-3-41-vs-gt/1970980101/watch

 

 

[maniac]

Just now, Lord said:

 

What? no

 

Sen bowled highest of 147.4 last year IIRC and regularly hit 140s. That is very different from Avesh hitting 140 with one odd ball and still struggling for control

 

https://www.hotstar.com/in/sports/cricket/rr-vs-gt-sens-3-41-vs-gt/1970980101/watch

 

 

I can’t access jio  but 1 off game doesn’t tell the whole story just to prove a point.

 

Even Bhuvi hit 145 in T20 once.

 

he has played a grand total of 12 IPL games in 3 yrs. Not one single standout performances. Played 5 in the last 2 yrs. Was injured in the middle of the game iirc once and then dropped for fitness. Same in international debut. Which means he is over trying for pace and not natural.

 

sticking out with consistent pace would be someone like Mayank.Umran or Umesh/Aaron in their prime.

 

 

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, maniac said:

I can’t access jio  but 1 off game doesn’t tell the whole story just to prove a point.

 

Even Bhuvi hit 145 in T20 once.

 

he has played a grand total of 12 IPL games in 3 yrs. Not one single standout performances. Played 5 in the last 2 yrs. Was injured in the middle of the game iirc once and then dropped for fitness. Same in international debut. Which means he is over trying for pace and not natural.

 

sticking out with consistent pace would be someone like Mayank.Umran or Umesh/Aaron in their prime.

 

 

 

yeah he hit 140s consistently unlike Bhuvi. 

 

Fitness is an issue, thats why we need more of such options so that we can play whoever's available instead of playing half fit pacers or trundlers. 

 

However that doesn't make him crap. Even Tyagi hasn't played much in recent years AFAIK

[singhvivek141]

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

point 1: proof that numbers are not everything. No one with basic cricket  acumen  will pick a in-form Bhuvi over Umran. Umran role is as the enforcer to take wickets in the middle. Bhuvi’s role is swing with new ball and death bowling. Umran wasn’t impressive despite the wickets he may have gotten. The coaching staff etc look at a lot of things. Fielding, commitment, sticking to plan, implementation of skills according to situation etc.

 

point 2- Sen being out of shape meaning not that he looks like Azam Khan, after 1-2 overs he was huffing and puffing and trundling and bowling half volleys. Avesh had the same issue but he has improved his fitness some what. While Avesh is average I have not seen anything from Kuldeep at IPL or brief international stint where I can conclude he is better than Akashdeep, Avesh or Mukesh. I trust some folks who regularly follow domestics on ICF so if they rate him maybe he has something there but wouldn’t be hopeful given he is 28.

 

Point 1 : I can't comment on the "look" factor, thats subjective.

My point is simply on the impact.

Umran in limited games picked up wickets with his sheer pace. Usually wicket takers are the preferred choices for most of the teams, but yeah, being conservative is something which comes naturally to Indian Team Management. 

 

Point 2 : I get your view on fitness, thats why I mentioned he bowled 28 overs in the last Ranji game before IPL.

Its obvious that as he hasn't played many "telecast" games, his visibility is lower for many.

Not everyone follows domestics coz we have so many teams that its a real pain to keep ourselves updated, hence every year in IPL the likes of Sandeep, Avesh, Mukesh, Bhuvi etc seems the gold standard in comparison to fast bowlers whose bowling style don't suit the T20 format (Harshit & Mayank are the only exceptions, but one is injury prone).