Lone Wolf Posted November 4 Posted November 4 Just read that 3 Scorpene sub deal is also likely dead with the French. More incentive to push aggressively for P75I
rangeelaraja Posted November 4 Posted November 4 1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said: Just read that 3 Scorpene sub deal is also likely dead with the French. More incentive to push aggressively for P75I How is there even a semblance of parity with a state that has 1/8th of our budget ? Either we are incredibly incompetent and terrible with planning or they are understating their true expenses which are much more than they claim. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Lone Wolf Posted November 5 Posted November 5 9 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: How is there even a semblance of parity with a state that has 1/8th of our budget ? Either we are incredibly incompetent and terrible with planning or they are understating their true expenses which are much more than they claim. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. They spend almost 25% of their budget on military... Thanks to our larger size most of our budget goes towards revenue expenditure (salaries, pensions etc) Also Pakistan inducts whatever is available to them... This current deal for example was a steal for them in 2015 only 5 billion dollars worth. India actively searches for wonder weapons thanks to import lobby. Psu's are incapable of delivering on time leaving armed forces buying silver bullets. There was a article this week on India Today about our ultra slow acquisition process. Bureaucracy ails us in every field. We took a decade to negotiate with france for 3 more scorpene submarines . Now we probably are to reject them for 6 german submarines (P75I) for whose negotiations we are going to take another decade.
singhvivek141 Posted November 5 Posted November 5 9 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: How is there even a semblance of parity with a state that has 1/8th of our budget ? Either we are incredibly incompetent and terrible with planning or they are understating their true expenses which are much more than they claim. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Pak is a military governed state, hence every business inside Pak either overtly or covertly, money goes to Military first. In Pak, govt is an arm of military...in India its reverse, Military is a wing of Govt.
singhvivek141 Posted November 5 Posted November 5 11 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Just read that 3 Scorpene sub deal is also likely dead with the French. More incentive to push aggressively for P75I Won't say it's near parity, they're sensationalizing the news. Fighter jet squadrons look similar, but Pak operates 6 squadron of Mirage 3 and some old Chinese jets....which are highly incompetent in today's airware. They've around 250-260 jets comprising of JF-17, JF-10C and F16 which are actual threats to us. In comparison we have around 250-260 jets of MKI, 36 Rafales and 36-38 Tejas mk1. Our Air to Surface missiles are superior and can cause devastating impact. Even the few squadrons that we have of Mig 29 are quite capable and can cause significant damage to their airpower. Only place where we lack is the BVR missile, but apart from that, our Air force is perfectly capable of demolishing PAF to the ground in close combat. Add to that S400, which can provide us semi BVR cover shooing away the PAF jets.
Lone Wolf Posted November 5 Posted November 5 1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said: Won't say it's near parity, they're sensationalizing the news. Fighter jet squadrons look similar, but Pak operates 6 squadron of Mirage 3 and some old Chinese jets....which are highly incompetent in today's airware. They've around 250-260 jets comprising of JF-17, JF-10C and F16 which are actual threats to us. In comparison we have around 250-260 jets of MKI, 36 Rafales and 36-38 Tejas mk1. Our Air to Surface missiles are superior and can cause devastating impact. Even the few squadrons that we have of Mig 29 are quite capable and can cause significant damage to their airpower. Only place where we lack is the BVR missile, but apart from that, our Air force is perfectly capable of demolishing PAF to the ground in close combat. Add to that S400, which can provide us semi BVR cover shooing away the PAF jets. Do you seriously believe PAF has to contend with two fronts like India or secure a vast coastline? IAF is stretched so thin that we have limited scope of a full throttle offensive. He is not sensationalising... These issues are regularly talked about in Indian defence circles among analysts and experts. He is right about AEW and MGS systems as well. These are cases of sheer incompetence on our part. It's good that people are becoming more aware about all this which wasn't the case 10 years ago. Only under pressure we can get things done in this country.
singhvivek141 Posted November 5 Posted November 5 8 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Do you seriously believe PAF has to contend with two fronts like India or secure a vast coastline? IAF is stretched so thin that we have limited scope of a full throttle offensive. He is not sensationalising... These issues are regularly talked about in Indian defence circles among analysts and experts. He is right about AEW and MGS systems as well. These are cases of sheer incompetence on our part. It's good that people are becoming more aware about all this which wasn't the case 10 years ago. Only under pressure we can get things done in this country. If the 2 front war is with coalition of Pak/Ban and India...then yes, we can beat both. Bangladesh, comfortably...Pakistan will effort but yes. Throw China in the mix then forget about 2 front war, even one front war will be a challenge. Even if their weapons/army isn't "battle tested", their overwhelming numbers can easily drain our defences. China has started investing in RnD since 1970's and it's only by 2010s when they picked up pace, Xi is going to end his tenure as one of the biggest leaders in the Chinese history. They got blessings from US as well. India started investing only few years back, and majority of our population is freeloader with no real skill. Our defence industry is in infancy and our workforce is extremely slow, no wonder why we import heavily instead of developing indigenous tech. But we're limited with the GDP of our country as well...China is easily 3x or 4x times bigger. People becoming aware is fine, but question is how we can solve this ? Naval Submarine issues will take a decade atleast, so we're focussing on Warships, Frigates and Destroyers. Airpower needs indigenous tech and as a stop gap few 5th gen jets (we may get the deal done when Putin will come to India), Israel is also offering sky stinger missiles (coz we goofed up Astra mk2 due to israeli radar), Gandiv is still few years away. Less said about Tejas Mk2 and AMCA the better. Best and easiest option is to increase the missile stockpile. That's in our hand. Build multiple stockpiles of Agni missiles (in hundreds for each variant) while cruise missiles should be in thousands. That won't necessarily defeat China but will keep them wary of the retaliation. Once missile numbers are up, you'll time to think and strategize the next action, whether to invest on INS Vishaal or on AMCA or on Tejas mk2. Lone Wolf 1
singhvivek141 Posted November 5 Posted November 5 @Lone Wolf, @G_B_ Navy Chief has spoken about the expansion in Navy. Literally 9-10 vessels in a year. If it can be brought down to 30 or less, it will be great though. https://defence.in/threads/navy-chief-reveals-rapid-expansion-one-new-indigenous-warship-or-submarine-joins-the-indian-navy-every-40-days.15944/
Lone Wolf Posted November 5 Posted November 5 (edited) 21 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: @Lone Wolf, @G_B_ Navy Chief has spoken about the expansion in Navy. Literally 9-10 vessels in a year. If it can be brought down to 30 or less, it will be great though. https://defence.in/threads/navy-chief-reveals-rapid-expansion-one-new-indigenous-warship-or-submarine-joins-the-indian-navy-every-40-days.15944/ These are all based on earlier orders given. Post 2027... There will be a serious drop off where things stand. Most of those earlier orders will be completed. Have to see whether the 3 remaining Scorpene SSK's would come or not... There is no confirmation it has been terminated or not. Reckon there was a India Today article on that as well.. when it was announced that next set of destroyers and frigates would see a expansion in early 2030's. Edited November 5 by Lone Wolf
Lone Wolf Posted November 5 Posted November 5 49 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: If the 2 front war is with coalition of Pak/Ban and India...then yes, we can beat both. Bangladesh, comfortably...Pakistan will effort but yes. Throw China in the mix then forget about 2 front war, even one front war will be a challenge. Even if their weapons/army isn't "battle tested", their overwhelming numbers can easily drain our defences. China has started investing in RnD since 1970's and it's only by 2010s when they picked up pace, Xi is going to end his tenure as one of the biggest leaders in the Chinese history. They got blessings from US as well. India started investing only few years back, and majority of our population is freeloader with no real skill. Our defence industry is in infancy and our workforce is extremely slow, no wonder why we import heavily instead of developing indigenous tech. But we're limited with the GDP of our country as well...China is easily 3x or 4x times bigger. People becoming aware is fine, but question is how we can solve this ? Naval Submarine issues will take a decade atleast, so we're focussing on Warships, Frigates and Destroyers. Airpower needs indigenous tech and as a stop gap few 5th gen jets (we may get the deal done when Putin will come to India), Israel is also offering sky stinger missiles (coz we goofed up Astra mk2 due to israeli radar), Gandiv is still few years away. Less said about Tejas Mk2 and AMCA the better. Best and easiest option is to increase the missile stockpile. That's in our hand. Build multiple stockpiles of Agni missiles (in hundreds for each variant) while cruise missiles should be in thousands. That won't necessarily defeat China but will keep them wary of the retaliation. Once missile numbers are up, you'll time to think and strategize the next action, whether to invest on INS Vishaal or on AMCA or on Tejas mk2. Extended range (300km) Guided Pinakas can solve a lot of our issues as well. Need to Fastrack them as soon as possible. Current 90km range is simply insufficient for a barrage. IDRW said Pakistanis seem to be keen on increasing Fatah 2 MBRL in greater numbers. They too are focusing on guided/Unguided rocket barrages on our SAM and Radar sites.
singhvivek141 Posted November 5 Posted November 5 25 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: Extended range (300km) Guided Pinakas can solve a lot of our issues as well. Need to Fastrack them as soon as possible. Current 90km range is simply insufficient for a barrage. IDRW said Pakistanis seem to be keen on increasing Fatah 2 MBRL in greater numbers. They too are focusing on guided/Unguided rocket barrages on our SAM and Radar sites. Pinaka mk5/6 are again few years away. Currently we've Pinaka mk1, mk2, and ER Inducted. mk3 is in trials whose range is 120km. Fatah 2 status is unclear, so is it's capability. Pooks have a habit of overstating, while we generally undersell. G_B_ 1
G_B_ Posted November 5 Posted November 5 On 11/4/2025 at 5:28 PM, Lone Wolf said: Its already know that.. indigenous Chinese engine.. which is seen as German alternative. Unproven for sure, Reckon Thai also have ordered similar class. But as Pentagon acknowledged China's shipbuilding capacity prowess, we probably shouldn't talk about it. Fully appreciate their hustle otoh. Something for our Babus to learn. Germans have been unreliable for a while on Submarine front. That's why India's own SSN deal is with French collaboration. And India's P75I itself is facing some design and ToT issues with Germans. Every 2 months there is new report on it. you do realise that even the Jin-class submarine is noisy as fudge. Its known to have a 170db noise. Its still miles away from even Borei class submarine that Russia operates. Dont give me this BS about the Pentagon. China is probably 15 years behind even Russia in submarine tech. A simple search on Reddit will tell you this. You think those Pakistan Hangor classes are somehow going to be stealthy with that engine (assuming it does not break down)? India has 12 P8 who will make this type of submarine cannon fodder by pin pointing their location. On that point, India knows it has a weakness in subs so has invested in the P8. Lets be honest here, the J10 that Pakistan operates does not have the Af31 engine (used for the Mki) that J10 of China has, cause Russia blocked it. When push comes to shove when you have to do sortie after sortie, its going to collapse in a proper engagement with India. Note the engine J20 uses is also the AF31 (mostly). Its not coming to Pakistan with that engine. Apart from wrist slitters and those oblivious to what is happening, nobody is going to be concerned. Its like losers who calculate the number of nuclear weapons India and Pakistan but ignore that India has a plutonium-based program while Pakistan has glorified enriched uranium. Re supposedly a beggar state. 8 submarines they have purchased from China cost 500 million a piece, $5 billion. Our Rafale M program alone is worth $7.6 billion. Our P8s cumulatively have cost around $6 billion. The Arihant class program cash has never been declared publicly. Our nuclear attack submarine and ballistic missile subs will cost manifold more. The blunt truth is, you don't really have a true picture of where all of these programs are. They are never going to put figures out in public. In 2027, you might wake up and find out India has launched a 10,000-tonne nuclear attack sub. So from what I can see, India is paying a lot of money to make a jump in capabilities. If this means delays in projects like P75i or even the nuclear-powered INS Vishal. So be it.
G_B_ Posted November 5 Posted November 5 29 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: Pinaka mk5/6 are again few years away. Currently we've Pinaka mk1, mk2, and ER Inducted. mk3 is in trials whose range is 120km. Fatah 2 status is unclear, so is it's capability. Pooks have a habit of overstating, while we generally undersell. Once pinaka reaches 300km its time to induct them in large numbers 1000+ and pepper them around the border.
singhvivek141 Posted November 6 Posted November 6 (edited) 31 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: North East security is key to tackle the Bangladeshi and Myanmar problem. Unfortunately, we have only active bases in Hasimara and Dibrugarh. India need to expand the airbase capacity of Paisghat, Ziro and Walong. The terrain is relatively flat with less population nearby. Mechuka and Tuting have runway limitation, can't be expanded further (without significant change in the construction). But we can shorter jets who don't need much runway to takeoff or land. Edited November 6 by singhvivek141
ravishingravi Posted November 7 Posted November 7 (edited) Siliguri Corridor Edited November 7 by ravishingravi G_B_ 1
G_B_ Posted November 7 Posted November 7 More i think about it india needs to invest in the al52 engine.
Lone Wolf Posted November 7 Posted November 7 1 hour ago, ravishingravi said: Siliguri Corridor Most heavily defended portion of India Outside of Kashmir. Zero chance. WB, Tripura, Meghalaya the hot zones for infiltration for ISI backed Kanglu militants
singhvivek141 Posted Saturday at 05:45 AM Posted Saturday at 05:45 AM New deal signed between HAL & GE for the 113 GE F404 engines required for the 97 Tejas mk1a order. Previously we have given the order for 97 F404 engines for 83 Tejas mk1a..but only 4 engines have been delivered so far. Not sure if I shall feel happy or shall I cry. Knowing very well it will take a decade atleast for GE yo deliver
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