Younis and Akram speed

[Trichromatic]

Quote

In the Caribbean in 2019, TV showed Jasprit Bumrah's release point was half a metre closer to the batter than Kemar Roach's. This gave Bumrah the effect of bowling 3.7mph faster than the speed gun was showing

 

 

So a 138 kph delivery from Bumrah will feel like 144 kph from Roach. It's not just about the quality.

[Suhaan]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Speedometer has been there regularly in cricket since early 2000s, but I would say that none of the Indian bowlers of 2000s were fast like Umesh Yadav even though they could have looked more difficult to play than Umesh.

 

Regarding perception, speed of the hand is not the only thing that matters. Irrespective of whether ball was delivered at 145 or 138 kph, what matters is what speed batsmen is facing.

 

Ball loses speed off the pitch and for some bowlers that loss is much less than other. It primarily depends on pitch also. 140 kph delivery will end up being 110-115 kph  at batsmen end In India and 115-120 kph on Aus/SA tracks. If you ask batsmen they will say later is faster.

Yes,Umesh and Aaron revolutionized pace culture in India

Before them ,150kph was just a dream 

[Suhaan]

7 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Speedometer has been there regularly in cricket since early 2000s, but I would say that none of the Indian bowlers of 2000s were fast like Umesh Yadav even though they could have looked more difficult to play than Umesh.

 

Regarding perception, speed of the hand is not the only thing that matters. Irrespective of whether ball was delivered at 145 or 138 kph, what matters is what speed batsmen is facing.

 

Ball loses speed off the pitch and for some bowlers that loss is much less than other. It primarily depends on pitch also. 140 kph delivery will end up being 110-115 kph  at batsmen end In India and 115-120 kph on Aus/SA tracks. If you ask batsmen they will say later is faster.

Pitch resistance comes more into picture with type of bowler operating

An Umesh or Shami does feel more quick due to their skiddyness,although ball release was also quick

[singhvivek141]

55 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Speedometer has been there regularly in cricket since early 2000s, but I would say that none of the Indian bowlers of 2000s were fast like Umesh Yadav even though they could have looked more difficult to play than Umesh.

 

Regarding perception, speed of the hand is not the only thing that matters. Irrespective of whether ball was delivered at 145 or 138 kph, what matters is what speed batsmen is facing.

 

Ball loses speed off the pitch and for some bowlers that loss is much less than other. It primarily depends on pitch also. 140 kph delivery will end up being 110-115 kph  at batsmen end In India and 115-120 kph on Aus/SA tracks. If you ask batsmen they will say later is faster.

Adding to your points, a lower release or a round arm release will also give a perception of a quicker delivery in comparison to a high arm release despite both clocking same pace at release...coz a high arm delivery will lose the pace more (in general) off the pitch in comparison to a round arm (Johnson, Tait) or a low arm release (Malinga,Pathirana). 

 

 

[AKane]

13 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Adding to your points, a lower release or a round arm release will also give a perception of a quicker delivery in comparison to a high arm release despite both clocking same pace at release...coz a high arm delivery will lose the pace more (in general) off the pitch in comparison to a round arm (Johnson, Tait) or a low arm release (Malinga,Pathirana). 

A plus of the overhead delivery vs the sidearm deliveries of Akhtar(slightly) to Malinga(extreme) is that the sidearm delivery cannot make use of the vertical seam position. It is just not possible to maintain the vertical seam with their sidearm action.

[tapandrun]

20 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/looks-fast-feels-faster-why-the-speed-gun-is-only-part-of-the-story-1292343

Think all batter would say samething after facing the fastest ball. Taylor said samething that he didnt think it was any different (facing fastest ball in test cricket) till he saw it on big screen.

 

Night do not think he said he felt any different facing fastest ball ever.

 

Speedometer is not part of it, its just where the batter played the ball. 

If they are late they will think it is fast , if it hits or is directed to rib-cage or head they will think its fasts.

 

If it connects in the middle of the bat it does not feel any different even eges does not feel any different, but if it starts hitting near the stickers it starts feeling fast. 

 

[singhvivek141]

5 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Think all batter would say samething after facing the fastest ball. Taylor said samething that he didnt think it was any different (facing fastest ball in test cricket) till he saw it on big screen.

 

Night do not think he said he felt any different facing fastest ball ever.

 

Speedometer is not part of it, its just where the batter played the ball. 

If they are late they will think it is fast , if it hits or is directed to rib-cage or head they will think its fasts.

 

If it connects in the middle of the bat it does not feel any different even eges does not feel any different, but if it starts hitting near the stickers it starts feeling fast. 

 

Yup, as one of the article above mentioned, it's the inability to follow the bowl trajectory makes it look faster. Hence, the bowlers with a round arm of slingy action, even if they're bowling at 145kph, it will feel the bowl coming to you a lot faster coz you're not used to the action. A fraction of delay in mental calculations and the bowl with thud either to your body or at the stumps.

That's why Johnson, who was slower than both Shoaib and Lee was so terrifying to English batters, his action didn't give any invitation...and at the pace of 144-148kph, batters simply don't have any time to adapt. It's different for Starc though whose action is more visible to the batters (it's a different matter though that Starc can move the ball like a snake which will deviate at the last moment leaving no time to react).

Edited Tuesday at 04:31 AM by singhvivek141

[rkt.india]

12 hours ago, AKane said:

A plus of the overhead delivery vs the sidearm deliveries of Akhtar(slightly) to Malinga(extreme) is that the sidearm delivery cannot make use of the vertical seam position. It is just not possible to maintain the vertical seam with their sidearm action.

You don't need vertical seam to get movement. Swing is generated through tilted seam.

[AKane]

11 hours ago, rkt.india said:

You don't need vertical seam to get movement. Swing is generated through tilted seam.

Have you ever bowled? Fingers on side of vertical seam is common....  What he says with minor variations is how I bowled in my school and college days. You can't do what he says with a side arm action.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:10 PM by AKane

[BacktoCricaddict]

On 11/2/2025 at 11:22 AM, tapandrun said:

https://www.sportskeeda.com/cricket/fastest-bowling-deliveries-in-world-cup-history?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

 

Which Indian bowler has bowled the fastest ball in ODI World Cup?

Javagal Srinath has bowled the fastest delivery by an Indian in ODI Cricket World Cup history. He clocked 154.5 kmph (96 mph) during a match against Pakistan in the 1999 World Cup.

 

 

think all these are unreliable reports 

This whole discussion sounds like an auction

 

149.6

149.8

149.9

154.5 .... going once, going twice ...

 

 

[singhvivek141]

55 minutes ago, AKane said:

Have you ever bowled? Fingers on side of vertical seam is common....  What he says with minor variations is how I bowled in my school and college days. You can't do what he says with a side arm action.

 

 

I think what he meant to say was seam will be vertical, but it won't be facing straight, but rather titled to either first slip or towards the batter.

I learned swing bowling quite late as I was obsessed with yorkers and bouncers, and as a right armer I started to flick my wrist at the release to generate outswing, however I wasn't able to generate much inswing coz my hand used to come from an angle and hence I had to keep my wrist locked to even cause a minor deviation into the batters, enough to cause the confusion. The guy in above video tells as it's easy to generate both kind of swing.

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, AKane said:

Have you ever bowled? Fingers on side of vertical seam is common....  What he says with minor variations is how I bowled in my school and college days. You can't do what he says with a side arm action.

 

 

 

He obviously has not heard of this other technique:

 

[putrevus]

On 11/2/2025 at 9:38 PM, Trichromatic said:

Speedometer has been there regularly in cricket since early 2000s, but I would say that none of the Indian bowlers of 2000s were fast like Umesh Yadav even though they could have looked more difficult to play than Umesh.

 

Regarding perception, speed of the hand is not the only thing that matters. Irrespective of whether ball was delivered at 145 or 138 kph, what matters is what speed batsmen is facing.

 

Ball loses speed off the pitch and for some bowlers that loss is much less than other. It primarily depends on pitch also. 140 kph delivery will end up being 110-115 kph  at batsmen end In India and 115-120 kph on Aus/SA tracks. If you ask batsmen they will say later is faster.

Umesh is one guy who has under achieved massively.He was born fit, he was so natural and had great outswinger.He could bowl reverse swing too.He always seemed to bowl within himself and still crank up good pace.Imagine if he really cranked it up, he could have bowled faster.

 

But he never learnt to be more consistent.He could have been India's Dale Steyn.

 

[Trichromatic]

9 hours ago, putrevus said:

Umesh is one guy who has under achieved massively.He was born fit, he was so natural and had great outswinger.He could bowl reverse swing too.He always seemed to bowl within himself and still crank up good pace.Imagine if he really cranked it up, he could have bowled faster.

 

But he never learnt to be more consistent.He could have been India's Dale Steyn.

 

 

This is one of the reasons I don't rate Zak that highly as Indian media does. He was inconsistent when he was fit and when he developed skills he became unfit.

[Trichromatic]

On 11/4/2025 at 4:29 AM, tapandrun said:

Think all batter would say samething after facing the fastest ball. Taylor said samething that he didnt think it was any different (facing fastest ball in test cricket) till he saw it on big screen.

 

Night do not think he said he felt any different facing fastest ball ever.

 

Speedometer is not part of it, its just where the batter played the ball. 

If they are late they will think it is fast , if it hits or is directed to rib-cage or head they will think its fasts.

 

If it connects in the middle of the bat it does not feel any different even eges does not feel any different, but if it starts hitting near the stickers it starts feeling fast. 

 

 

Even if we leave aside batsmen perception, release point, ability to bowl hard balls, speed of pitch etc make lot of difference for same batsman also.

 

Looking at speed gun doesn't add much value.

 

Like how Bumrahs action makes feel it like 144-148 kph.

 

Ultimately time available to react is only relevant metric and not the release speed.

 

After that batsman ability comes into picture.

[Trichromatic]

Release speed is oversimplified marketing metric in cricket.

[Rightarmfast]

On 11/2/2025 at 9:49 PM, Trichromatic said:

 

It's not about perception.

 

Zak and Nehra bowled few deliveries over 145 and any fast medium bowler could do that.

 

They would struggle to clock 142+ most of the time.

 

Umar Gul, Wahab Riaz, Sami lot of pacers could not 150 and not everyone was classified as fast.

 

Andy Bichel 140+ far more regularly than Indian bowlers and he was fast medium.

 

Munaf Patel clocked max 144.7 and he was considered fast.

 

Every series I watched till 2010, Indian bowlers looked slower than opposition pacers.

 

2003 WC was bit exception where Zak and Nehra were young and Srinath went all in.

 

Umesh was first Indian pacer to sustain pace for long time with great fitness and irrespective of his exploits I rate him for this. He did what wasn't exactly norm in Indian cricket.

 

It wasn't Bumrah who changed it. It was Umesh. Then Shami worked on his fitness and did the same. So both of them rightly classified as fast bowlers, while likes of Zak, Nehra rightly classified as fast medium.

Your point is relevant. However, Srinath , whether one believes or not, was genuinely quick. And btw, barring Brett lee, Shoaib akhtar, Shaun Tait, most of the genuine quicks anyway bowl at an average pace of 138ish-141'ish. 

If the only argument is that nobody talks about Srinath's pace ( @tapandrun) then one can watch Ashwin's interview of Srinath. One can watch Ayaz Menon's interviews, or Shaun Pollock's. 

 

but if you expect a Wasim Akram, or a Waqar Younis to accept that a certain Indian bowler was genuine quick during their time, they will not do it! They will always only call him 'sharp'. 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

On 11/4/2025 at 10:01 AM, singhvivek141 said:

Yup, as one of the article above mentioned, it's the inability to follow the bowl trajectory makes it look faster. Hence, the bowlers with a round arm of slingy action, even if they're bowling at 145kph, it will feel the bowl coming to you a lot faster coz you're not used to the action. A fraction of delay in mental calculations and the bowl with thud either to your body or at the stumps.

That's why Johnson, who was slower than both Shoaib and Lee was so terrifying to English batters, his action didn't give any invitation...and at the pace of 144-148kph, batters simply don't have any time to adapt. It's different for Starc though whose action is more visible to the batters (it's a different matter though that Starc can move the ball like a snake which will deviate at the last moment leaving no time to react).

Disagree about Akhtar . Akhtar could get the ball to climb off a hard length even at 144 kph just like Johnson could. High arm slingers with large arm paths( even larger for Akhtar because of his hyperextension) hit the deck a lot harder. 

 

Lee didn't get as much bounce and Starc(relative to his height and airspeed) gets the least bounce among them 

 

 

[Trichromatic]

4 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Your point is relevant. However, Srinath , whether one believes or not, was genuinely quick. And btw, barring Brett lee, Shoaib akhtar, Shaun Tait, most of the genuine quicks anyway bowl at an average pace of 138ish-141'ish. 

If the only argument is that nobody talks about Srinath's pace ( @tapandrun) then one can watch Ashwin's interview of Srinath. One can watch Ayaz Menon's interviews, or Shaun Pollock's. 

 

but if you expect a Wasim Akram, or a Waqar Younis to accept that a certain Indian bowler was genuine quick during their time, they will not do it! They will always only call him 'sharp'. 

 

 

Was Srinath fast for batsmen? Could he hurry them?

 

Whether a bowler bowled at 148 or 142 is irrelevant.

 

Release speed is marketing gimmick only.

Why do we compare release speed? 

 

Why not avg speed? Why not the total time taken by ball to reach to the batsman.

 

If 142 bowled by a bowler doesn't lose pace as much as 148 bowled by other bowler, then 148 kph being faster doesn't matter in absence of speed guns.

[putrevus]

9 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

This is one of the reasons I don't rate Zak that highly as Indian media does. He was inconsistent when he was fit and when he developed skills he became unfit.

He was your typical Indian fast bowler before Kohli's era never paid any attention to his fitness .His bowling in that 438 chase vs SA still haunts me along with Dhoni's idiotic captaincy.

 

Umesh and Shami were far more talented than Zaheer.