Younis and Akram speed

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Was Srinath fast for batsmen? Could he hurry them?

 

Whether a bowler bowled at 148 or 142 is irrelevant.

 

Release speed is marketing gimmick only.

Why do we compare release speed? 

 

Why not avg speed? Why not the total time taken by ball to reach to the batsman.

 

If 142 bowled by a bowler doesn't lose pace as much as 148 bowled by other bowler, then 148 kph being faster doesn't matter in absence of speed guns.

 Srinath had his moments but I don't think he had any ferociousness in him which is needed for fast bowler he was too meek.But he was also abused by his captains as he was lone warrior.

 

I don't think he was difficult for batsmen to face him, he was always short of length early in his career.It took him long time to bowl yard fuller to be effective.

 

  

[tapandrun]

7 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Your point is relevant. However, Srinath , whether one believes or not, was genuinely quick. And btw, barring Brett lee, Shoaib akhtar, Shaun Tait, most of the genuine quicks anyway bowl at an average pace of 138ish-141'ish. 

If the only argument is that nobody talks about Srinath's pace ( @tapandrun) then one can watch Ashwin's interview of Srinath. One can watch Ayaz Menon's interviews, or Shaun Pollock's. 

 

but if you expect a Wasim Akram, or a Waqar Younis to accept that a certain Indian bowler was genuine quick during their time, they will not do it! They will always only call him 'sharp'. 

 

 

Argument was never based on what Wasim or waqar said about Srinath, it was why no other source outside some Ind fans talk about Srinath being fast,and not just fast but express fast

And if he was bowling 156 kmph at some time then he would have been only 1 who was doing it. So it cannot be he was one of many so one talks.

 

One thing express bowlers are good at is cleaning up the tail was he able to clean-up the tail??? He has only 3 five wkt hauls and there was not like any-other bowler who was chewing up wkts from other end.

 

Till few days back ppl were saying he clocked 149 kmph (his highest ) in 1999 wc and then there is an article on cricket centric site saying he clocked 154 kmph.

I can not prove or dis-prove what was he clocking but all these reports looks dodgy with little to no consistency

 

There are some articals/sources that says noel david clocked 152 kmph in del. test with no evidence. There was a time when every batter would come-up with some bowler's name and no1 said anything about Srinath.. Is that not strange for some 1 who clocked 156 in 1997 and 154 in 1999 its like ~2 yrs.

 

he showed no trade of being fastest bowler: batters were not getting beaten by, they were not jumping and hopping due to extra pace.

 

even if asked here which match srinath bowled 156 or 154 or 149 no one can pin down which match which over.  If not wrong in wc-1999 they were not broad casting the speeds as they these days, there was a small rectangle led board (like the ones of old times) and camera will pan to it and show speeds in mph not  kmph for ppl to claim he was bowling 154 or 149 kmph and camera would not pan every time. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5 by tapandrun

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Was Srinath fast for batsmen? Could he hurry them?

 

Srinath hurried batsmen a lot.  Plus he used to hit them on the head and body regularly.

 

 

[express bowling]

21 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Why not the total time taken by ball to reach to the batsman.

 

If 142 bowled by a bowler doesn't lose pace as much as 148 bowled by other bowler, then 148 kph being faster doesn't matter in absence of speed guns.

 

This should be the measure used instead of release speeds. 

 

" Time taken by the ball to reach the batsman from the time of release. ".

 

" Steepbess of bounce " should be shown too. 

 

Hurrying ability and Hostility are the 2 key factors instead of Release speeds.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6 by express bowling

[tapandrun]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

This should be the measure used instead of release speeds. 

 

" Time taken by the ball to reach the batsmen from the time of release. ".

 

" Steepbess of bounce " should be shown too. 

 

Hurrying ability and Hostility are the 2 key factors instead of Release speeds.

 

 

 

 

The things is all these are non-reliable parameters.

 

Time take to reach batter can change depending up-on the pitch and where batter is making the contact- standing outside /deep in the crease , was it a forwar defence of a shot on backfoot.

 

Steepness of bounce is also pitch dependent and also depends up-on how high is the release point of a bowler.

 

Hurrying/ hostile ability or fearfactor is batter dependent a lower order batter will always feel everything is hostile and hurrying them and even form of a batter can dictate what they fell is hurrying them what is not 

 

Edited November 5 by tapandrun

[singhvivek141]

4 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Was Srinath fast for batsmen? Could he hurry them?

Yes, he was.
I clearly remember this match. It was a rain affected game, Srinath was literally bowling handgrenades and if my memory serves me right he bowled 7-8 overs in one spell.
Prasad on the other hand was gently trundling with no effort whatsoever. Once Srinath ended his spell, entire Indian bowling looked toothless.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/carlton-united-series-1999-00-61058/australia-vs-india-4th-match-65590/full-scorecard

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, tapandrun said:

 

One thing express bowlers are good at is cleaning up the tail was he able to clean-up the tail??? He has only 3 five wkt hauls and there was not like any-other bowler who was chewing up wkts from other end.

Srinath had his limitations, he was fast, at times express, but his biggest issue was his inability to hit the stumps.
He often bowled on the half hearted short of length (like Umesh) and hence struggled to either bounce the batters or to pin them down in front of stumps.
Umesh while had a killer reverse swing, Srinath's I don't remember having that (wc to be corrected). He was mostly a Ishant type bowler, minus the bounce. 

[tapandrun]

20 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Srinath had his limitations, he was fast, at times express, but his biggest issue was his inability to hit the stumps.
He often bowled on the half hearted short of length (like Umesh) and hence struggled to either bounce the batters or to pin them down in front of stumps.
Umesh while had a killer reverse swing, Srinath's I don't remember having that (wc to be corrected). He was mostly a Ishant type bowler, minus the bounce. 

 

All my argument is the claims of Srinath bowling comes frm few Ind cricket fans which are coming from unreliable ,inconsistent and dodgy resources.

Was he quick ?? Yes , did all the Ind captain tried to run/bowl him to the ground yes- similar to how Rohit was doing with bhumrah.

 

But was he express ?? -- not sure.

 

 Take an example of hostility facing Prime archer and Prime Mark Wood. Wood on average is faster than Archer but archer is much more hostile some would find archer faster but no one would say Wood is not up there in terms of pace.

 

No1 can come and bowl 156 kmph if they are not bowling 150 kmph regularly, can not explain it but there is kind of wall of a wall every 5kmph. Akthar talked about it saying he would have to work really hard once he hit certain pace to increase the pace. Would hear it with lot of bowlers that growing-up they were fastest but then they hit a wall beyond which they can not ball, but other who were slower compared to them started gaining pace.

 

Kuldeep Sen was trying to breach 150 kmph he and Parag talked about it (when they were in RR) he finally understood there is some kind of wall.

So if Srinath was not bowling 150 kmph regularly he wound nt be bowling 154-156-157 kmph, and at this pace no matter how bad is the line length batter knows he is facing v.fast bowler and specially when the other bowler is sub 130 kmph . 

 

 

 

Edited November 5 by tapandrun

[Nikhil_cric]

15 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Srinath had his limitations, he was fast, at times express, but his biggest issue was his inability to hit the stumps.
He often bowled on the half hearted short of length (like Umesh) and hence struggled to either bounce the batters or to pin them down in front of stumps.
Umesh while had a killer reverse swing, Srinath's I don't remember having that (wc to be corrected). He was mostly a Ishant type bowler, minus the bounce. 

His biggest problem was that he couldn't move it away from that natural inwards angle that he had. Not consistently anyway.

 

Modern bowlers also bowl with that 11 o clock release - Bumrah/Rabada/Cummins - but they manage to wobble/swing the ball away and threaten both edges. 

 

 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

4 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

All my argument is the claims of Srinath bowling comes frm few Ind cricket fans which are coming from unreliable ,inconsistent and dodgy resources.

Was he quick ?? Yes , did all the Ind captain tried to run/bowl him to the ground yes- similar to how Rohit was doing with bhumrah.

 

But was he express ?? -- not sure.

 

 Take an example of hostility facing Prime archer and Prime Mark Wood. Wood on average is faster than Archer but archer is much more hostile some would find archer faster but no one would say Wood is not up there in terms of pace.

 

No1 can come and bowl 156 kmph if they are not bowling 150 kmph regularly, can not explain it but there is kind of wall of a wall every 5kmph. Akthar talked about it saying he would have to work really hard once he hit certain pace to increase the pace. Would hear it with lot of bowlers that growing-up they were fastest but then they hit a wall beyond which they can not ball, but other who were slower compared to them started gaining pace.

 

Kuldeep Sen was trying to breach 150 kmph he and Parag talked about it (when they were in RR) he finally understood there is some kind of wall.

So if Srinath was not bowling 150 kmph regularly he wound be bowling 154-156-157 kmph, and at this pace no matter how bad is the line length batter knows he is facing v.fast bowler and specially when the other bowler is sub 130 kmph . 

 

 

 

He was not express in the sense of Akhtar/Tait/Lee

 

But at his best, he was genuinely quick with effort balls in the 150's. 

 

Also you are wrong about the 156 kph part. 

 

Steyn has clocked that speed on a couple of occasions at least.   But was never consistently in that bracket. 

 

 

 

Edited November 5 by Nikhil_cric

[tapandrun]

7 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

He was not express in the sense of Akhtar/Tait/Lee

 

But at his best, he was genuinely quick with effort balls in the 150's. 

 

Also you are wrong about the 156 kph part. 

 

Steyn has clocked that speed on a couple of occasions at least.   But was never consistently in that bracket. 

 

 

 

 

Akthar lee and tait are different and thats their own league.

 

Steyn crossed 150+ kmph alot of time in his prime around 2010-12/13, he can bowl serious pace when he wanted to.

He was v.smart interms he would bowl sub 140 kmph when the condition were helping him and he can use the out-swing.

 

Also a thing with SA faster bowlers, they tend to bowl faster and once the new faster guy comes in they settle of some normal speeds.

Nitini was quick and when Styne came he took a break and styne continued till Rabada and rabada bowled with high pace till Nortje.

 

The only example of  some1 brearching 155 kmph is  Lockie he bowled  1 ball at 157 kmph the season Umran was bowling v.fast in IPL. 

Lockie is not know to breach 155 kmph that often but he bowls a lot of balls in 150 kmph and he is kind of weird where in one game he can hardly bowl 144 kmph and next match he can just start hitting 150 kmph.

 

here is some of the fastest ball bowled by Styne, around 2010-12 he was bowling really quick breaching 155 kmh

 

Speed (km/h)	Context	Year	Source
156.7	Indian Premier League match for Royal Challengers Bangalore against Kolkata Knight Riders	2010
156.2	Test match against England	2008
155.7	One-Day International against New Zealand	2008
155.7	Against New Zealand in a 2011 World Cup match in Mumbai	2011
154.4	Indian Premier League match	2012

 

 

Edited November 6 by tapandrun

[singhvivek141]

29 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

All my argument is the claims of Srinath bowling comes frm few Ind cricket fans which are coming from unreliable ,inconsistent and dodgy resources.

Was he quick ?? Yes , did all the Ind captain tried to run/bowl him to the ground yes- similar to how Rohit was doing with bhumrah.

 

But was he express ?? -- not sure.

 

 Take an example of hostility facing Prime archer and Prime Mark Wood. Wood on average is faster than Archer but archer is much more hostile some would find archer faster but no one would say Wood is not up there in terms of pace.

 

No1 can come and bowl 156 kmph if they are not bowling 150 kmph regularly, can not explain it but there is kind of wall of a wall every 5kmph. Akthar talked about it saying he would have to work really hard once he hit certain pace to increase the pace. Would hear it with lot of bowlers that growing-up they were fastest but then they hit a wall beyond which they can not ball, but other who were slower compared to them started gaining pace.

 

Kuldeep Sen was trying to breach 150 kmph he and Parag talked about it (when they were in RR) he finally understood there is some kind of wall.

So if Srinath was not bowling 150 kmph regularly he wound nt be bowling 154-156-157 kmph, and at this pace no matter how bad is the line length batter knows he is facing v.fast bowler and specially when the other bowler is sub 130 kmph . 

 

There are some videos in the youtube, not high quality but still decent.
You can see Srinath's deliveries are inconsistent...but some really just whizz pass away at the batters.
Do I have a video evidence of him bowling 150's, unfortunately no. But there is an espncricinfo DB which says Srinath's quickest speed was 149.6k's...close to 150 https://i.imgci.com/link_to_database/STATS/FC/BOWLING/BOWLING_SPEEDS.html. It says Waqar's fastest was 153 and Wasim's 145.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k46GV7RD5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2R5Fnw8X3c

 

[Suhaan]

15 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Nitini was quick and when Styne came he took a break and styne continued till Rabada and rabada bowled with high pace till Nortje.

Ntini had pace till 2001 ,from 2002 he started loosing pace 

By early 2003 i e CWC he was a bonafide trundler

That SA attack was laugh worthy ,all were trundling from Donald to Pollock,which is why they didn't hold even in a weak group at home

You need pace in SENA,true nature of those pitches can't be suppressed,so what if it's a WC

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, tapandrun said:

The things is all these are non-reliable parameters.

 

Time take to reach batter can change depending up-on the pitch and where batter is making the contact- standing outside /deep in the crease , was it a forwar defence of a shot on backfoot.

 

" Time taken to reach the batsman ". 

 

If a batsman is playing from deep inside the crease ... it means a pacer must bowl quicker to hurry him. And this parameter will bring this out.

 

If a pitch is slow then it means a pacer must have the ability to bowl quicker to hurry batters. (  As spinners bowl a lot on those pitches, and pacers have to bowl less overs ... bowling quicker is possible and also necessary ).

 

Someone like a Khaleel Ahmed or Siraj can hurry batters on most Australian pitches ... but can't hurry them on most Indian pitches. Whereas Bumrah can and Shami, Umesh could hurry batters on Indian pitches too. 

 

This pararameter will show that you need Bumrah, Shami, Umesh kind of pacers in India. 

 

 

2 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Steepness of bounce is also pitch dependent and also depends up-on how high is the release point of a bowler.

 

" Steepness of bounce "

 

On a lower bounce pitch, you either need a more bouncy pacer or a skiddy pacer.

 

This parameter will show that a normal bounce and non-skiddy pacer will not be good in India. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, tapandrun said:

 

Hurrying/ hostile ability or fearfactor is batter dependent a lower order batter will always feel everything is hostile and hurrying them and even form of a batter can dictate what they fell is hurrying them what is not 

 

 

 

These are not parameters that will be shown on screen or measured.

 

But stands to reason that a pacer needs to generate more pace and bounce against higher quality batters to have the same effect. 

Edited November 5 by express bowling

[tapandrun]

2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

There are some videos in the youtube, not high quality but still decent.
You can see Srinath's deliveries are inconsistent...but some really just whizz pass away at the batters.
Do I have a video evidence of him bowling 150's, unfortunately no. But there is an espncricinfo DB which says Srinath's quickest speed was 149.6k's...close to 150 https://i.imgci.com/link_to_database/STATS/FC/BOWLING/BOWLING_SPEEDS.html. It says Waqar's fastest was 153 and Wasim's 145.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k46GV7RD5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2R5Fnw8X3c

 

Yes there is a consensus that Waqar would have touched 153 kmph and Wasim 145-148 kmph in their prime. Talking about touched nt bowled regularly.

A similarity can be drawn with Pathirana who bowls v.high 140s and touches 150 kmph when in absolute prime -- This is for waqar 

And Bhumrah can be compared to wasim , wasim wouldhave bowled 138-142 in his prime an on effort ball on in rythm could have touched 145-148 kmph.

 

In wc-2003 vs eng Nehra also touched ~150 kmph that did not make him 145 kmph bowler he was not even 140+ kmph bowler.

Ishant clocked early 150 kmph in test in Aus but that does not make him 150 kmph bowler or 145 kmph bowler.

 

The thought of  some1 bowling 156 kmph in 1997 and 154 kmph in 1999 is like 2 years so in that 2  years some of the batter would have faced him in Srinath's absolute prime but no one mentions his v.high pace.

Edited November 5 by tapandrun

[Suhaan]

36 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Yes there is a consensus that Waqar would have touched 153 kmph and Wasim 145-148 kmph in their prime. Talking about touched nt bowled regularly.

I don't think Wasim could ever reach more than 145 ,he was not exactly wrong footer but by the time he released his wrong foot came in front

Wierd action which surely blocked him from clocking more

[putrevus]

49 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Yes there is a consensus that Waqar would have touched 153 kmph and Wasim 145-148 kmph in their prime. Talking about touched nt bowled regularly.

A similarity can be drawn with Pathirana who bowls v.high 140s and touches 150 kmph when in absolute prime -- This is for wasim 

And Bhumrah can be compared to wasim , wasim wouldhave bowled 138-142 in his prime an on effort ball on in rythm could have touched 145-148 kmph.

 

In wc-2003 vs eng Nehra also touched ~150 kmph that did not make him 145 kmph bowler he was not even 140+ kmph bowler.

Ishant clocked early 150 kmph in test in Aus but that does not make him 150 kmph bowler or 145 kmph bowler.

 

The thought of  some1 bowling 156 kmph in 1997 and 154 kmph in 1999 is like 2 years so in that 2  years some of the batter would have faced him in Srinath's absolute prime but no one mentions his v.high pace.

I think you are correct, while Srinath bowled few deliveries express or bowled at express speeds but it did not make him express bowler.

 

Waqar was express bowler for first half of his career, Wasim Akram could crank up speeds if needed but generallly operated in say 135-145.Akram never relied on his purely on his pace to get wickets.Waqar was shell of himself once his speed reduced.

 

 

The length which they bowled also was the difference. Waqar and Wasim bowled fuller lengths, while Srinath bowled short of length giving batsman more time to react.

 

[Trichromatic]

10 hours ago, tapandrun said:

The things is all these are non-reliable parameters.

 

Time take to reach batter can change depending up-on the pitch and where batter is making the contact- standing outside /deep in the crease , was it a forwar defence of a shot on backfoot.

 

Steepness of bounce is also pitch dependent and also depends up-on how high is the release point of a bowler.

 

Hurrying/ hostile ability or fearfactor is batter dependent a lower order batter will always feel everything is hostile and hurrying them and even form of a batter can dictate what they fell is hurrying them what is not 

 

Time taken by ball to reach the batsman may depend on external factor, but it may be more relevant than release speed.

[Rightarmfast]

15 hours ago, tapandrun said:

 

Argument was never based on what Wasim or waqar said about Srinath, it was why no other source outside some Ind fans talk about Srinath being fast,and not just fast but express fast

And if he was bowling 156 kmph at some time then he would have been only 1 who was doing it. So it cannot be he was one of many so one talks.

 

One thing express bowlers are good at is cleaning up the tail was he able to clean-up the tail??? He has only 3 five wkt hauls and there was not like any-other bowler who was chewing up wkts from other end.

 

Till few days back ppl were saying he clocked 149 kmph (his highest ) in 1999 wc and then there is an article on cricket centric site saying he clocked 154 kmph.

I can not prove or dis-prove what was he clocking but all these reports looks dodgy with little to no consistency

 

There are some articals/sources that says noel david clocked 152 kmph in del. test with no evidence. There was a time when every batter would come-up with some bowler's name and no1 said anything about Srinath.. Is that not strange for some 1 who clocked 156 in 1997 and 154 in 1999 its like ~2 yrs.

 

he showed no trade of being fastest bowler: batters were not getting beaten by, they were not jumping and hopping due to extra pace.

 

even if asked here which match srinath bowled 156 or 154 or 149 no one can pin down which match which over.  If not wrong in wc-1999 they were not broad casting the speeds as they these days, there was a small rectangle led board (like the ones of old times) and camera will pan to it and show speeds in mph not  kmph for ppl to claim he was bowling 154 or 149 kmph and camera would not pan every time. 

 

 

 

 

Not anyone's fault if you started watching cricket yesterday bro. 

I watched the 99 World Cup match live, and there were multiple commentators talking about Srinath's pace. And it was officially registered at 149.6k's, in the record book. 

 

And yes, one more thing, a day prior to speed gun being introduced in the 99WC ( it was introduced in the Aus vs Ind match), the articles ( from ICC and UK newspapers) quoted that it was expected for Srinath to clock anywhere between 90mph- 94/95mph as top speed, as that was his regular top speeds. 

 

As far as 157 delivery, it was a match against Zimbabwe in 1997 during India's tour of South Africa. It was the 2nd ODI against Zimbabwe. 

 

@Trichromatic Yes, he did hurry batsmen quite a bit. Even as late as in early 2000's, he was still sharp. And as @express bowling mentioned, not just hurry, he hurt quite a bit of batsmen. 

 

What noone in this thread is talking about is the fact that while every express bowler during Srinath's time had a quality bowler supporting from the other end, Srinath had none who could support him. The only decent support he got was in as late as 1998 when Harvinder Singh came, and 99 when Ajit Agarkar came. Both of them were sharp. 

So, unlike other express bowlers, whose role was to terrorize the batsmen and go all out, Srinath's role was not just to get wickets, but also to contain the runs!

 

And you expect a bowler to give his optimum with such little assistance? And he still bowled quite fast. If he had Shami, Bumrah, Siraj, or Ishant from the other end, he would have been collosal.  

[Rightarmfast]

10 hours ago, putrevus said:

I think you are correct, while Srinath bowled few deliveries express or bowled at express speeds but it did not make him express bowler.

 

Waqar was express bowler for first half of his career, Wasim Akram could crank up speeds if needed but generallly operated in say 135-145.Akram never relied on his purely on his pace to get wickets.Waqar was shell of himself once his speed reduced.

 

 

The length which they bowled also was the difference. Waqar and Wasim bowled fuller lengths, while Srinath bowled short of length giving batsman more time to react.

 

Akram operated around 135-145? When?