Lone Wolf Posted July 9 Posted July 9 (edited) 14 minutes ago, G_B_ said: Wont we simply target karachi ports directly? Why a blockade? The p8 will easily find and neutralise this glorified kilo class sub with aip. As per admirals any sub once leaves the harbour underwater with AIP is tricky to detect. In fact Submarine warfare is often hardest one. P8Is can't be operated close to Pak harbours. More ASW vessels are needed as well. A blockade would completely wreck Pakistan's fragile economy. Karachi and Port Qasim are the key drivers to Pak economy. While the blockade can still be obtained but they will inflict some damage this time unlike during Op Sindoor period when they were practically helpless. Edited July 9 by Lone Wolf
singhvivek141 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said: As per admirals any sub once leaves the harbour underwater with AIP is tricky to detect. In fact Submarine warfare is often hardest one. P8Is can't be operated close to Pak harbours. More ASW vessels are needed as well. A blockade would completely wreck Pakistan's fragile economy. Karachi and Port Qasim are the key drivers to Pak economy. While the blockade can still be obtained but they will inflict some damage this time unlike during Op Sindoor period when they were practically helpless. Its 6 Hangors vs 19 ASWs...the number is in overwhelming majority. Nilgiri class also has ASW capability. Hangors will have to surface early if they move top fast to avoid detection from ASWs...P8Is also have Sonobuoys which will listen SONAR signature deep in the water. They do have some capability, but one misadventure and their ports will be burned to ashes. Submarines will have no home to return.
singhvivek141 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 2 hours ago, G_B_ said: Wont we simply target karachi ports directly? Why a blockade? The p8 will easily find and neutralise this glorified kilo class sub with aip. P8Is, MQ 9 Reaper, Nilgiri class frigates and Agray class Shallow water ASW...Hangors will be choked to death.
Lone Wolf Posted July 9 Posted July 9 6 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: Its 6 Hangors vs 19 ASWs...the number is in overwhelming majority. Nilgiri class also has ASW capability. Hangors will have to surface early if they move top fast to avoid detection from ASWs...P8Is also have Sonobuoys which will listen SONAR signature deep in the water. They do have some capability, but one misadventure and their ports will be burned to ashes. Submarines will have no home to return. They don't need to return home... 8 AIP Subs armed with enough SLCM can pretty much do heavy damage on Western coast. In case their major port city is bombed all bets are off in that case. Like mentioned in the article they don't have the might to take on Indian Navy head on which is understandable but they can inflict some damage unlike in the past. So the nuisance level has increased somewhat.
Lone Wolf Posted July 9 Posted July 9 (edited) 5 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: P8Is, MQ 9 Reaper, Nilgiri class frigates and Agray class Shallow water ASW...Hangors will be choked to death. All of that is theoretical... Sub warfare even in maritime exercises is considered extremely tougher. Filipino Navy successfully detecting an Indian Scorpene made massive headlines in MILAN exercises. Americans have themselves studied on it for years to have come to this conclusion that stealth is King under the sea. These Gora countries and Israel heavily invest in underwater offense. Chinks have learnt this game as well. Edited July 9 by Lone Wolf
singhvivek141 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 2 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: They don't need to return home... 8 AIP Subs armed with enough SLCM can pretty much do heavy damage on Western coast. In case their major port city is bombed all bets are off in that case. Like mentioned in the article they don't have the might to take on Indian Navy head on which is understandable but they can inflict some damage unlike in the past. So the nuisance level has increased somewhat. Navy is preparing to counter. Pakistan dont have the courage to use SLCM, specially not after Arihant class. Our Nuc doctrine states that even if we feel that the incoming missile would be a Nuclear, all bets are off. Pakistan is aware of that. Pak Admirals will talk big, like they usually do, but cometh the war and they'll pee in their pants and would be running at Amreeki doorstep to stop the assault. Lone Wolf 1
singhvivek141 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 4 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: All of that is theoretical... Sub warfare even in maritime exercises is considered extremely tougher. Filipino Navy successfully detecting an Indian Scorpene made massive headlines in MILAN exercises. Americans have themselves studied on it for years to have come to this conclusion that stealth is King under the sea. These Gora countries and Israel heavily invest in underwater offense. Chinks have learnt this game as well. It is definitely not easy, as Arabian sea is noisy and thus the sound by Submarines will get suppressed. Its a game of cat and mouse and who sees whom first. Thats where ships like Sanshodhak comes in handy. They will have the mapping of oceanic floors which will allow shallow water ships will patrol in the coastal waters. Lone Wolf 1
Lone Wolf Posted July 9 Posted July 9 1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said: Navy is preparing to counter. Pakistan dont have the courage to use SLCM, specially not after Arihant class. Our Nuc doctrine states that even if we feel that the incoming missile would be a Nuclear, all bets are off. Pakistan is aware of that. Pak Admirals will talk big, like they usually do, but cometh the war and they'll pee in their pants and would be running at Amreeki doorstep to stop the assault. The doctrine is kinda double edged.. Pooks like Israel are only ret@rded country to use their conventional subs as Nuclear platforms. So they clearly aren't rational actors. While their jernails and experts making tall claims on attacking Eastern Indian seaboard is a pipe dream but within their own shores they do make partial sea denial possible or costly endeavour as per Indian and neutral experts as well.
rangeelaraja Posted July 9 Author Posted July 9 Funniest **** I have seen in a while. These Afghanis are real Whack jobs. singhvivek141 1
singhvivek141 Posted July 10 Posted July 10 It's always good to hear Rear Admiral Raja Menon's views on Navy Warfare. I may not 100% agree with everything what he says, but his views are articulate and he is very clear in what he visualizes. India does have a massive advantage in terms of maritime, about time we realize and build our Navy power.
singhvivek141 Posted July 10 Posted July 10 @G_B_, @Lone Wolf 850 odd Loitering munitions/Kamikaze drones, the next gen of Harop drones which we're carrying. 1000 Crores contract is given to TASL as L1 and around 600 Crore to NIBE as the L2 bidder. 850 is less though, in Op SIndoor itself Pak wasted more than 500 drones (mostly Byraktar) while we despite using less number of drones caused damage to Pakistan due to their crippled AD. Things won't be the same now and Pak will be more prepared. Hoping that further orders will be given as well once these 850 are delivered on time with quality. https://defence.in/threads/tata-advanced-systems-emerges-as-l1-for-rs1-500-cr-army-drone-deal-order-to-be-shared-with-nibe-defence.18238/
Lone Wolf Posted July 10 Posted July 10 (edited) 1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said: @G_B_, @Lone Wolf 850 odd Loitering munitions/Kamikaze drones, the next gen of Harop drones which we're carrying. 1000 Crores contract is given to TASL as L1 and around 600 Crore to NIBE as the L2 bidder. 850 is less though, in Op SIndoor itself Pak wasted more than 500 drones (mostly Byraktar) while we despite using less number of drones caused damage to Pakistan due to their crippled AD. Things won't be the same now and Pak will be more prepared. Hoping that further orders will be given as well once these 850 are delivered on time with quality. https://defence.in/threads/tata-advanced-systems-emerges-as-l1-for-rs1-500-cr-army-drone-deal-order-to-be-shared-with-nibe-defence.18238/ Saw this .. lots of criticism as you can expect with NIBE included Expectedly cost is super high for a meagre order. 1600 crore for 840 drones?? You'll get a 1000km ranged shahed drone for 20-40 lakh and we paying around 1.9 crores for a single drone with a mere 100km range That's a max 4 hour inventory for a conflict lol. These smaller orders should be placed to Solar, JSR dynamics type IDDM groups Edited July 10 by Lone Wolf
singhvivek141 Posted July 10 Posted July 10 Seems DRDO is trying to revive the Kaveri 2.0 variant, after the drama by F404 engines drama. I think we already achieved a thrust of 81 kN in Feb 2026, now just few more kN of thrust and we'll be able to meet 83-85kN requirement for F404...hope they are reducing weight as well. There were some reports that India is working with Russia on its Afternburner and to trim down the weight. Though those reports move away quickly hints govt try to suppress the leak. @Lone Wolf, @G_B_ Lone Wolf 1
Lone Wolf Posted July 10 Posted July 10 (edited) 13 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: Seems DRDO is trying to revive the Kaveri 2.0 variant, after the drama by F404 engines drama. I think we already achieved a thrust of 81 kN in Feb 2026, now just few more kN of thrust and we'll be able to meet 83-85kN requirement for F404...hope they are reducing weight as well. There were some reports that India is working with Russia on its Afternburner and to trim down the weight. Though those reports move away quickly hints govt try to suppress the leak. @Lone Wolf, @G_B_ Biggest Blackpill of the day... P18 in very early design stages. They are pushing it to 2040's now. So as expected P15C will get RFP first.. guess Navy sources were right all along. P17B to get RFP in 18 month's times.. & construction to begin closer to 2032 damn. IAF's bug has eventually bitten IN as well Edited July 10 by Lone Wolf singhvivek141 1
Lone Wolf Posted July 10 Posted July 10 It will take time but hopefully they don't pull the plug this time. We have wasted so many decades already. They should simultaneously work on redesigning Tejas Mk2 as well.
singhvivek141 Posted July 10 Posted July 10 1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said: Biggest Blackpill of the day... P18 in very early design stages. They are pushing it to 2040's now. So as expected P15C will get RFP first.. guess Navy sources were right all along. P17B to get RFP in 18 month's times.. & construction to begin closer to 2032 damn. IAF's bug has eventually bitten IN as well I read the news...tbh on one side I am still doubting this news. Navy can't literally do the blunder of this extent. The War Design Bureau is literally in their control. P18A project is a MUST not only for the elevation of our destroyers, also we have to prepare for the retirement of Delhi Class & Rajput Class of Destroyers. P17B is another frigate...it will continue anyway. But if P18A doesnt move ahead, then we have to ensure that P15C class of destroyers atleast go in with 64 VLS at the bare minimum. Else, its not gonna enhance our capabilities in the proportion despite spending such a massive amount of money. Is IAC-2 Carrier going through ? Coz we have stripped down P76 to 9 submarines and P77 will start with only 2. So not sure where the fund will go ? With the Great Nicobar project coming through, we need to station a powerful Navy there comprising of Destroyers, Frigates, Corvettes, P8Is and submarines.
singhvivek141 Posted July 10 Posted July 10 18 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: It will take time but hopefully they don't pull the plug this time. We have wasted so many decades already. They should simultaneously work on redesigning Tejas Mk2 as well. Redesigning Tejas mk2 is out of scope bro. We have to get the F414 deal with GE. Maybe TEDBF can be redesigned. The midlife upgrade of Tejas mk2, AMCA mk1 and TEDBF relies totally on the Safran-GTRE co developed engine. If its a failure, then we are stuck with an underpowered F414 engine (though its slightly overclocked for AMCA mk1 with a thrust of 110kN). Lone Wolf 1
Lone Wolf Posted July 10 Posted July 10 5 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: I read the news...tbh on one side I am still doubting this news. Navy can't literally do the blunder of this extent. The War Design Bureau is literally in their control. P18A project is a MUST not only for the elevation of our destroyers, also we have to prepare for the retirement of Delhi Class & Rajput Class of Destroyers. P17B is another frigate...it will continue anyway. But if P18A doesnt move ahead, then we have to ensure that P15C class of destroyers atleast go in with 64 VLS at the bare minimum. Else, its not gonna enhance our capabilities in the proportion despite spending such a massive amount of money. Is IAC-2 Carrier going through ? Coz we have stripped down P76 to 9 submarines and P77 will start with only 2. So not sure where the fund will go ? With the Great Nicobar project coming through, we need to station a powerful Navy there comprising of Destroyers, Frigates, Corvettes, P8Is and submarines. Great Nicobar is deep into the future bahut kaam hona hai is par... That's into 2040's already. Not our immediate focus One Notable thing is they have shrunk P17B to 6 vessels already instead of 7 originally planned. Calls for P15C were making rounds for a reason as P18A is in extremely earlier stage and as you said Older Delhi and Rajput class destroyers are on the verge of retirement so they needed to be replaced... IN can't afford to wait till early 2040 for first vessel to get commissioned. Budget constraints are also not helping matters. Navy's Capex is limited and we knew eventual slowdown was coming post 2027.
Lone Wolf Posted July 10 Posted July 10 7 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: Redesigning Tejas mk2 is out of scope bro. We have to get the F414 deal with GE. Maybe TEDBF can be redesigned. The midlife upgrade of Tejas mk2, AMCA mk1 and TEDBF relies totally on the Safran-GTRE co developed engine. If its a failure, then we are stuck with an underpowered F414 engine (though its slightly overclocked for AMCA mk1 with a thrust of 110kN). Yeah basically my assumption is based on rumours going around that GE is now being totally unreasonable maybe under Burger's pressure who knows
singhvivek141 Posted July 13 Posted July 13 7th engine delivered, 6th is also rectified as per the below report. Seems the target is to deliver 12 engines by 2026 (though HAL said 20). Bugging question is, where is HAL with these 7 engines ? Are the jets ready ? Or that ceremony of showing 18 Tejas mk1a was just a hoax.
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