G_B_ Posted May 20 Posted May 20 Standard Chartered is cutting 7800 back office jobs. India, Poland are the most impacted...AI the reason given. I have always thought that in the era of AI, the rupee weakening should be a boon for these GCC centers. 100% compared to Poland, work will be much cheaper now in India.
IndianRenegade Posted May 20 Posted May 20 1 hour ago, straighttalk said: I see your point but intellectual ip besides ai when developed using company resources belongs to the company even though the patent might be in the employees name. The contention here isn't that the code/application produced aren't IP of Meta, they already have it & already train on it. The knowledge of how a s/w engineer works is general knowledge that is acquired over years of education & past experience. Meta doesn't take some random person of the street & train him/her to be s/w engineer. They intend to acquire how a software engineer produces what he produces, not just what he produces. 3 hours ago, straighttalk said: Secondly the said employee has the right to leave their 500k to 1 million pay cheque from meta and walk away and protect their peerless intellectual ip. this deriding of labor by the CEO, & Capital class is why people hate AI. All the software companies & drug companies could keep their products in their own shelves that they don't want a buyer to decompile/deconstruct the formula & resell it. But capital wants protection to their knowledge, while destroying the individual's ability to protect his/hers. software engineers actually were the most open community wrt to their IP & knowledge, open sourcing complex piece of software, contributing countless man hours to create, improve & maintain it. The issue about walking away is, as you said elsewhere many places track activity & keystrokes (though most have done so for security reasons), meta now wants it to train their labor out of existence, others will also follow suit. In a horrible job market, It is just an illusion of choice. 3 hours ago, straighttalk said: Ai in this case is not learning intellectual ip...that is available through official channels at any company...they are trying to learn how people work and use different tools. Exactly, that is the labor of knowledge workers. Meta or any tech company already know the genral methodology, but their model needs lots of data, high quality data, with many permutations & combinations. Frankly the old IP laws are outdated, until recently even if you know how a certain invention, product or anything is developed you needed, labor yours or someone else to replicate it. Even if autiomated you needed labor to automate it, monitor, & maintain it. An invention that automates all of it, by using the work of the labor , theatening the ability opf the very labor to earn a living while enriching a few.
straighttalk Posted May 20 Posted May 20 1 hour ago, IndianRenegade said: The contention here isn't that the code/application produced aren't IP of Meta, they already have it & already train on it. The knowledge of how a s/w engineer works is general knowledge that is acquired over years of education & past experience. Meta doesn't take some random person of the street & train him/her to be s/w engineer. They intend to acquire how a software engineer produces what he produces, not just what he produces. this deriding of labor by the CEO, & Capital class is why people hate AI. All the software companies & drug companies could keep their products in their own shelves that they don't want a buyer to decompile/deconstruct the formula & resell it. But capital wants protection to their knowledge, while destroying the individual's ability to protect his/hers. software engineers actually were the most open community wrt to their IP & knowledge, open sourcing complex piece of software, contributing countless man hours to create, improve & maintain it. The issue about walking away is, as you said elsewhere many places track activity & keystrokes (though most have done so for security reasons), meta now wants it to train their labor out of existence, others will also follow suit. In a horrible job market, It is just an illusion of choice. Exactly, that is the labor of knowledge workers. Meta or any tech company already know the genral methodology, but their model needs lots of data, high quality data, with many permutations & combinations. Frankly the old IP laws are outdated, until recently even if you know how a certain invention, product or anything is developed you needed, labor yours or someone else to replicate it. Even if autiomated you needed labor to automate it, monitor, & maintain it. An invention that automates all of it, by using the work of the labor , theatening the ability opf the very labor to earn a living while enriching a few. Don't get me wrong ..I understand why you and even I am frustrated. However , I don't think what meta or billionaires are doing is wrong ..it's unfair but not wrong. As long as the said swe is happy to get paid often times 2-3x than people in other industries at much senior level..then meta absolutely has the right to automate and reduce their cost...it's up to the swe to say I don't want to help meta. This is only about the legal right...no one is refusing or suing meta. I feel it is screwing the people ..so the question is how can swe reinvent themselves...if ai can easily replace them due to good documentation and language like syntax...where can you specialize ..I assume in architecture and systems design with lots of ambiguities and people skills. As company owner he is looking for improving efficiency and cost...if ai is not good enough it breaks down...if ai becomes good enough..he will lose to competition if it doesn't adopt ai. However swe can fidn jobs in reguskted safety critical industries probably at more market rate where AI mistakes are not acceptable compared to the slop that meta netflix or other big tech companies like door dash etc create...not useful to society and mistakes have no big impact.
IndianRenegade Posted May 21 Posted May 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, straighttalk said: Don't get me wrong ..I understand why you and even I am frustrated. However , I don't think what meta or billionaires are doing is wrong ..it's unfair but not wrong. 1. Something being wrong has nothing to do with legality. Right or Wrong is a question of morality. wrt. to legality Anthropic had to pay fines after it got caught infringing rights of publishers, suchir balaji credibly accused OpenAi of infringing copy rights, Meta pirated 82TB of pirated books for AI training. Legality or Morality has not come in the way of their effort to destroy labor. Most labor cannot steal billions in goods, use it generated more billions in wealth & pay a portion to get out jail. Those who indulge in equivalent crimes will get their lives destroyed, most of his wealth gone & become unemployed. 2. Second, using legality as an excuse for a tech as new as AI is problematic in itself. When computers were new existing mail and wire fraud laws were insufficient to prosecute emerging crimes like unauthorized data access, digital trespassing, and electronic vandalism, they had to enact Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. That didn't mean these acts weren't wrong. 3. These tech oligarchs have spent hundreds of billions on AI & have spent more billions lobbying the govts. against enacting any regulations against AI. Then they will argue that the lack of regulations make them right! Quote As long as the said swe is happy to get paid often times 2-3x than people in other industries at much senior level..then meta absolutely has the right to automate and reduce their cost...it's up to the swe to say I don't want to help meta. SWE engneers didn't gang up decide to get paid high, unlike many unionized fields where they gang up & demand a certain wage/benifit to wrok, SWE are famousley anti union, which seems to be bighting their backs now. Capital paid high salaries because these companies werre extermely profitable & they needed high quality software and didn't have the needed high skilled labor to produce it. Also there is not legally recognized right to automate, laws don't your ability to automate, that doesn't equal a right in fact there are laws in regulated areas which prevent automation of certain areas or have human in the loop. 2 hours ago, straighttalk said: where can you specialize ..I assume in architecture and systems design with lots of ambiguities and people skills. As company owner he is looking for improving efficiency and cost...if ai is not good enough it breaks down...if ai becomes good enough..he will lose to competition if it doesn't adopt ai. However swe can fidn jobs in reguskted safety critical industries probably at more market rate where AI mistakes are not acceptable compared to the slop that meta netflix or other big tech companies like door dash etc create...not useful to society and mistakes have no big impact. eveything you list are solvable problems, require much less labor when AI is scaled & compute problem is solved. Physical AI is the next frontier which I bet will be cracked in the next decade.The issue is not technological improvement, the issue is billionares want the raw material for their riches for free. If you find valuable minerals tomorrow on your property, you don't get to enjoy it as you please, you need mineral rights. If the billionares are going to extract knowledge of their workers & make billions they should be made to pay for it. When Capital creeates IP, they will ensure those IPs produce wealth & royalty for decades & but attempt to undercut the same for labor. Edited May 21 by IndianRenegade
straighttalk Posted May 21 Posted May 21 44 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: 1. Something being wrong has nothing to do with legality. Right or Wrong is a question of morality. wrt. to legality Anthropic had to pay fines after it got caught infringing rights of publishers, suchir balaji credibly accused OpenAi of infringing copy rights, Meta pirated 82TB of pirated books for AI training. Legality or Morality has not come in the way of their effort to destroy labor. Most labor cannot steal billions in goods, use it generated more billions in wealth & pay a portion to get out jail. Those who indulge in equivalent crimes will get their lives destroyed, most of his wealth gone & become unemployed. 2. Second, using legality as an excuse for a tech as new as AI is problematic in itself. When computers were new existing mail and wire fraud laws were insufficient to prosecute emerging crimes like unauthorized data access, digital trespassing, and electronic vandalism, they had to enact Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. That didn't mean these acts weren't wrong. 3. These tech oligarchs have spent hundreds of billions on AI & have spent more billions lobbying the govts. against enacting any regulations against AI. Then they will argue that the lack of regulations make them right! SWE engneers didn't gang up decide to get paid high, unlike many unionized fields where they gang up & demand a certain wage/benifit to wrok, SWE are famousley anti union, which seems to be bighting their backs now. Capital paid high salaries because these companies werre extermely profitable & they needed high quality software and didn't have the needed high skilled labor to produce it. Also there is not legally recognized right to automate, laws don't your ability to automate, that doesn't equal a right in fact there are laws in regulated areas which prevent automation of certain areas or have human in the loop. eveything you list are solvable problems, require much less labor when AI is scaled & compute problem is solved. Physical AI is the next frontier which I bet will be cracked in the next decade.The issue is not technological improvement, the issue is billionares want the raw material for their riches for free. If you find valuable minerals tomorrow on your property, you don't get to enjoy it as you please, you need mineral rights. If the billionares are going to extract knowledge of their workers & make billions they should be made to pay for it. When Capital creeates IP, they will ensure those IPs produce wealth & royalty for decades & but attempt to undercut the same for labor. I do not consider it wrong ..I consider it bad for the engineer. The reason it is not wrong..is because it's not secret .it's part of employment and they are well compensated for their time at meta. The said engineer can reject it and resign and protect what is valuable to them. No one is doing that. It is different from the music or other examples that you mentioned as there the music ip is not paid for..there are copyright rules here. Where is the rule here for workplace workflow or sw tooling. You do have a strong point that laws are still developing. That is absolutely fair but most employment agreement say clearly that all ip belongs to the company. If regulations try to protect swe against being replaced by ai ..then we are going back to how cpim protested the introduction of computer in India..capitalism and efficiency point to swe being replaced by ai because their work is very well structured rule based and documented..the coding part not the other parts. As for union..I am not talking about blue collar jobs..I'm talking about extremely complex engineering such as biotechnology or aerospace etc. which are million times more complex and critical than meta s like algorithm etc. those peopel are paid peanuts compared to what meta swe is paid. If market forces decided those compensatiom because of high profits...similarly market is now making them redundant. So it is bad for the individual engineer as they are getting impacted by the market forces but it is not as if zuckerberg is stealing from them. Think of it as this way. If we can 3d print a car or high quality. We will adopt that technology and put a lot of people out of job. But for that reason I would need experienced people to find tune the machine. I pay them to do it. Once it is done I lay them off. It is not hidden...it can be unfair or the workers might feel bad but as long as it is at will environment and people willingly sign up .there is no stealing happening. All the swe can resign en masse from meta and try to join other companies and teach zucksrberg a lesson for treating them so badly. Are they doing it? If not there is your answer.
IndianRenegade Posted May 21 Posted May 21 14 hours ago, straighttalk said: I do not consider it wrong ..I consider it bad for the engineer. The reason it is not wrong..is because it's not secret .it's part of employment and they are well compensated for their time at meta. The said engineer can reject it and resign and protect what is valuable to them. No one is doing that. It is different from the music or other examples that you mentioned as there the music ip is not paid for..there are copyright rules here. Where is the rule here for workplace workflow or sw tooling. Because it is not a secret is precisely the point. Courts have ruled generalized skills that people acquire are not IPs that the Employer can own, & they belong to the employee as a right to earn a living and can move with the employee. Until now there was no generalized way to capture employee thought if theemployee explicitly put into a tangible document, code etc. With AI they can, so it requires a new set of regulations. https://www.mintzedge.com/blog/do-you-really-own-your-employees-knowledge https://bostonbar.org/journal/distinguishing-employees-general-skill-or-knowledge-from-protectable-trade-secrets-under-massachusetts-law/ None of the examples I mentioned relate to music, the AI tech was built on data that was stolen data - therein lies the issue. Labor can't build that way, let's say you have a brilliant start up idea, but you are just missing an algorithm/code/some investment to make it work. You can't take from meta's code base & bank accounts, make thousands in profits then pay a few thousands of it as reparation to meta when you get caught. Your entire profits will be confisticated (look up Disgorgement) & labor will probably go to jail. 15 hours ago, straighttalk said: You do have a strong point that laws are still developing. That is absolutely fair but most employment agreement say clearly that all ip belongs to the company. If regulations try to protect swe against being replaced by ai ..then we are going back to how cpim protested the introduction of computer in India..capitalism and efficiency point to swe being replaced by ai because their work is very well structured rule based and documented..the coding part not the other parts. I am not arguing for technology to not progress or AI to be not used or banned. But if the AI is built on data that they stole, and going to be built on data that will eventually lead to removing one's ability to earn a living, those raw materials should be paid for. Big tech wants raw materials for free. Capital can't steal the IP of labor while expecting its IP to be sacrosanct, & every use of it be rewarded with royalties. When there is a societal change as big as AI, those agreements should be looked at like People in indentured servitude who also signed agreements. Just like how it wasn't reasonable to believe a person willfully signed off their freedom it is equally unreasonable to believe people will fully sign off their ability to make a living. Computerization in the west and in India led to increases in employment, the employment data has made it clear AI is having the opposite effect. So, they aren't comparable. 17 hours ago, straighttalk said: Think of it as this way. If we can 3d print a car or high quality. We will adopt that technology and put a lot of people out of job. But for that reason I would need experienced people to find tune the machine. I pay them to do it. Once it is done I lay them off. It is not hidden...it can be unfair or the workers might feel bad but as long as it is at will environment and people willingly sign up .there is no stealing happening. Manufacturing is a proprietary documented process, as you mentioned a few experienced people can tune the machine if the tech is available. AI's won't exist without scrapping everyone's data & in some cases stolen data. It isn't fairness, AI is where it is because of illegal actions. Labor, or individuals can't steal Capital's IP in this manner, only capital is allowed to, & pay a fine when caught. 17 hours ago, straighttalk said: All the swe can resign en masse from meta and try to join other companies and teach zucksrberg a lesson for treating them so badly. Are they doing it? If not there is your answer. This is very early, the market is also in a downturn with every eployer making cuts, since swe are traditional non unionised such actions aren't easy. But they are already protesting: https://nexnews.net/en/article/employees-protest-against-mouse-tracking-technology-at-meta this won't happen to only swe, they are first, slowly it will take out majority of digital workers & Physical AI within the next decade will start destroying what is left of the labor & world, what will be left is techno fuedalism. Capital can look for equitable solutions when its early, or we can watch the world burn.
IndianRenegade Posted May 21 Posted May 21 Yes don’t sleep, don’t get tired, don’t get sick… you know what just die! Then wonder why ppl hate AI. l
kepler37b Posted May 22 Author Posted May 22 @IndianRenegade .. You invest so much time in propagating what you believe. Unreal levels of commitment man
IndianRenegade Posted May 22 Posted May 22 46 minutes ago, kepler37b said: @IndianRenegade .. You invest so much time in propagating what you believe. Unreal levels of commitment man I know.. I should get back to doing useful work. ;)
kepler37b Posted May 22 Author Posted May 22 (edited) 29 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: I know.. I should get back to doing useful work. ;) Nothing use-less in propagating what you believe. I have seen and grown tired people who have no beliefs except paisaa. Edited May 22 by kepler37b
IndianRenegade Posted May 22 Posted May 22 (edited) Pope comes out against AI as it being implemented: Edited May 22 by IndianRenegade
Lord Posted May 22 Posted May 22 Water consumption is big issue in India. We can’t have too many data centers P.S. Not sure if the video is real or itself AI lol
IndianRenegade Posted May 22 Posted May 22 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Lord said: Water consumption is big issue in India. We can’t have too many data centers P.S. Not sure if the video is real or itself AI lol its real, she actually goes to the place where the data center is & has conversation with the ppl who reported drop in water quality. While what actually caused it need to be investigated the video is real. The Acyn account is a popular liberal account that posts proceedings from news & congress. Edited May 22 by IndianRenegade Lord 1
Lord Posted May 22 Posted May 22 24 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: its real, she actually goes to the place where the data center is & has conversation with the ppl who reported drop in water quality. While what actually caused it need to be investigated the video is real. The Acyn account is a popular liberal account that posts proceedings from news & congress. India is already a water stressed nation. We need to be careful here
kosingh Posted May 23 Posted May 23 Have to wonder which countries will offer the best quality of life over the next few decades.
IndianRenegade Posted May 30 Posted May 30 AI already seems to be voting issue. https://x.com/Acyn/status/2060442611215958115/video/1?s=46
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