vvvslaxman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 On 5/1/2026 at 3:41 AM, kosingh said: Kohli is a cultural icon more than a batting icon. ALthough he gained popularity aruond 2016 he is still a largely PR driven cult figure.
rangeelaraja Posted May 16 Posted May 16 (edited) On 5/15/2026 at 1:24 PM, Mariyam said: @rangeelaraja Unsure about what you are arguing about here? Kohli has been abusive and not in jest for the first half of his career. The kind of behaviour that is held in high esteem in Delhi, socially speaking. At least in West Delhi and South Ex. After marriage he has become a Guru Ghantaal baba of sorts who has started telling people how they can celebrate festivals and how they shouldn’t litter. His latest form is even more despicable than his earlier rude self. I don’t watch YT for cricket. In fact I don’t watch much cricket, Ro Sha seems to be a fun guy to be around. People are always laughing around him. I’ve had the privilege of very brief interactions with him during a few IPL games and he has a very Mumbai street smart shana vibe around him. Samay Raina on the other hand is genuinely witty and nimble with his thoughts. I’ve been on some of his chess streams (sometimes with Sagar) and he would make you laugh out of nothing. No abuses/No gaali galoch. The Latent Samay Raina is not the one I knew, nor am I a fan of that kind of humour, but it’s the job of an artist to challenge boundaries. He has his heart at the right place. @Mariyam I think you're conflating a few things. :) Nobody is defending Kohli's off-field duplicity or on-field rash behavior. I dislike that side of him as much as you do. But using it to diminish his cricketing achievements is mixing up two separate things entirely. You called him "a cultural icon more than a batting icon" and also said you don't follow cricket closely. Those two positions contradict each other. Kohli is one of the greatest batting icons in cricket history. He is India's most successful Test captain ever and by a long way. In white-ball cricket, he is the greatest ODI player of all time, several notches above even Sachin Tendulkar. This isn't opinion -- it's borne out by the impossible chases he has won for India, and by numbers that are qualitatively far superior to Sachin's in that format. Australia's greatest bowlers, in a recent discussion, unanimously placed Kohli well above Sachin as a limited-overs batter. Sachin would likely concede it too. As far as Samay Raina is concerned his style is well-known for heavy use of profanity even much before Latent. Being funny doesn't give you a free pass. And Raina knows exactly what he's doing. He's said it himself: abuses get views and money. You live in Mumbai full time; I visit a few weeks a year. The change hits you differently when you're not used to it. The way teenagers talk in malls, cafes, restaurants ( BC and MC gaalis thrown around like commas ) it's jarring. This didn't come from nowhere. Tens of millions of young people watch this guy. When he makes abusive language the punchline to every other joke, kids pick it up, normalize it, run with it. Of course they do. We've essentially told them this is what's funny, this is how you get attention. What we're watching play out in public spaces is a direct result of platforming people like Raina. That's the whole point I'm making. Edited May 16 by rangeelaraja
Ultimate_Game Posted May 17 Posted May 17 6 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: @Mariyam Kohli is one of the greatest batting icons in cricket history. He is India's most successful Test captain ever and by a long way. In white-ball cricket, he is the greatest ODI player of all time, several notches above even Sachin Tendulkar. This isn't opinion -- it's borne out by the impossible chases he has won for India, and by numbers that are qualitatively far superior to Sachin's in that format. Australia's greatest bowlers, in a recent discussion, unanimously placed Kohli well above Sachin as a limited-overs batter. Sachin would likely concede it too. Yeh kuch zayada ho gaya. Kohli is most successful Test captain coz he rode ATGs like Ashwin, Jadeja, Bumrah, Shami and Pant. Kohli as a batter and captain has been dragged by them. At home it was Ashwin and Jadeja along with lower order who was the reason for India's dominance at home. The moment Ashwin and Jadeja couldn't play like supermen India lost at home against NZ. In Test Kohli averages a pretty average 46 which is nowhere close to the top batters, and he doesn't even have one single Test winning innings like Pujara, Pant, Laxman, Dravid, Sehwag etc. where they put the team on the back and won the match by themselves. Give me even one example of Away Test where he was the reason for the win. Plus we all know his performances in the two WTC finals with his team selection, captaincy and batting. Failed in those as usual. As for ODIs laughable to hear he's "superior" to Tendulkar! Superior in what? Winning meaningless bilaterals? All those chases you talk about came in those bilaterals. We all know how things turned out in ICC tournies where he needed to step up. In 2015 WC, Dhawan had given us a flying start and Kohli couldn't do anything. In 2019 WC, he couldn't chase 239. In 2023 WC after Rohit had given India a more than decent start of 80 in 10 overs and Kohli along with KL could do nothing. Every single time he had to step up on the big stage he failed. Bilaterals and group stages is what he specializes in. In big matches he goes missing. Had he showed up even once like Smith, Warner or Travis Head, Bumrah and Shami would've a ODI WC as well just like their Aussie counterparts. Their batting stars showed up in big matches while ours, especially Kohli, shrank.
rangeelaraja Posted May 17 Posted May 17 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: Yeh kuch zayada ho gaya. Kohli is most successful Test captain coz he rode ATGs like Ashwin, Jadeja, Bumrah, Shami and Pant. Kohli as a batter and captain has been dragged by them. At home it was Ashwin and Jadeja along with lower order who was the reason for India's dominance at home. The moment Ashwin and Jadeja couldn't play like supermen India lost at home against NZ. In Test Kohli averages a pretty average 46 which is nowhere close to the top batters, and he doesn't even have one single Test winning innings like Pujara, Pant, Laxman, Dravid, Sehwag etc. where they put the team on the back and won the match by themselves. Give me even one example of Away Test where he was the reason for the win. Plus we all know his performances in the two WTC finals with his team selection, captaincy and batting. Failed in those as usual. As for ODIs laughable to hear he's "superior" to Tendulkar! Superior in what? Winning meaningless bilaterals? All those chases you talk about came in those bilaterals. We all know how things turned out in ICC tournies where he needed to step up. In 2015 WC, Dhawan had given us a flying start and Kohli couldn't do anything. In 2019 WC, he couldn't chase 239. In 2023 WC after Rohit had given India a more than decent start of 80 in 10 overs and Kohli along with KL could do nothing. Every single time he had to step up on the big stage he failed. Bilaterals and group stages is what he specializes in. In big matches he goes missing. Had he showed up even once like Smith, Warner or Travis Head, Bumrah and Shami would've a ODI WC as well just like their Aussie counterparts. Their batting stars showed up in big matches while ours, especially Kohli, shrank. Kohli brought the culture of fast bowlers winning matches at home and abroad. Ganguly had Bhajji and Kumble both and a formidable spin playing batting line up ---yet we could not dominate like Kohli led team at home and abroad. By the same measure Sachin had 2 World Cup finals ( 2003 and 2011 ). He flopped in both. Sachin had peak Sehwag, Yuvraj and Ganguly for support too. Compare the averages, number of games won chasing...or any qualitative metric...Kohli drawfs Sachin as an ODI batter And forget about you and me....real legendary bowlers on the field put Kohli head and shoulders Sachin as an ODI batter. Edited May 17 by rangeelaraja
Ultimate_Game Posted May 17 Posted May 17 4 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: Kohli brought the culture of fast bowlers winning matches at home and abroad. Ganguly had Bhajji and Kumble both and a formidable spin playing batting line up ---yet we could not dominate like Kohli led team at home and abroad. By the same measure Sachin had 2 World Cup finals ( 2003 and 2011 ). He flopped in both. Sachin had peak Sehwag, Yuvraj and Ganguly for support too. Compare the averages, number of games won chasing...or any qualitative metric...Kohli drawfs Sachin as an ODI batter And forget about you and me....real legendary bowlers on the field put Kohli head and shoulders Sachin as an ODI batter. Sachin never had the support of bowling attack which Kohli had. Kohli was at the right place at the right time. Both Bumrah and Shami came into the team around 2015 and made their debuts under Dhoni. In fact there's no player - batter or bowler - Kohli developed. Ganguly unearthed likes of Sehwag, Yuvraj, Zaheer, Bhajji. Dhoni found likes of Raina, backed Kohli and Rohit (turned Rohit into opener), Jadeja, Ashwin etc. I can't recall even a single player identified by Kohli. All I recall is him playing Rayudu at 4 for nearly 2 years and then going with 4 wkt keepers instead in 2019 WC. As for his love of fast bowlers, he's the one who dropped Umesh and Shami from 2017 CT final against Pak knowing fully well they struggle against pacers, he's the one who dropped a red hot Shami in favor of Chahal in 2019 WC SF, he's the one who went with 2 spinners in WTC final on a seam friendly pitch in overcast conditions when NZ didn't even pick a single spinner. For all his love for fast bowlers, Kohli didn't back fast bowlers in key matches. The only reason Kohli has better stats than Tendulkar in ODIs is coz in Tendulkar's times, bilateral ODIs and tri-series were taken seriously and first-choice teams used to play those matches. However, things changed with advent of T20 in 2007 and IPL in 2008. Top players, especially bowlers, barely played that much bilateral cricket. That's the reason why even likes of Babar also average 50+ in ODIs. By these stats & metrics Babar outshines both Kohli and Tendulkar! When real cricket was played and there was an ICC tourney on the line, Kohli failed coz that time there were no easy bowlers to fill your boots against, just like Babar fails when teams play their top bowlers.
rangeelaraja Posted May 17 Posted May 17 21 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: Sachin never had the support of bowling attack which Kohli had. Kohli was at the right place at the right time. Both Bumrah and Shami came into the team around 2015 and made their debuts under Dhoni. In fact there's no player - batter or bowler - Kohli developed. Ganguly unearthed likes of Sehwag, Yuvraj, Zaheer, Bhajji. Dhoni found likes of Raina, backed Kohli and Rohit (turned Rohit into opener), Jadeja, Ashwin etc. I can't recall even a single player identified by Kohli. All I recall is him playing Rayudu at 4 for nearly 2 years and then going with 4 wkt keepers instead in 2019 WC. As for his love of fast bowlers, he's the one who dropped Umesh and Shami from 2017 CT final against Pak knowing fully well they struggle against pacers, he's the one who dropped a red hot Shami in favor of Chahal in 2019 WC SF, he's the one who went with 2 spinners in WTC final on a seam friendly pitch in overcast conditions when NZ didn't even pick a single spinner. For all his love for fast bowlers, Kohli didn't back fast bowlers in key matches. The only reason Kohli has better stats than Tendulkar in ODIs is coz in Tendulkar's times, bilateral ODIs and tri-series were taken seriously and first-choice teams used to play those matches. However, things changed with advent of T20 in 2007 and IPL in 2008. Top players, especially bowlers, barely played that much bilateral cricket. That's the reason why even likes of Babar also average 50+ in ODIs. By these stats & metrics Babar outshines both Kohli and Tendulkar! When real cricket was played and there was an ICC tourney on the line, Kohli failed coz that time there were no easy bowlers to fill your boots against, just like Babar fails when teams play their top bowlers. Dude, you are factually so wrong here that I genuinely do not even know where to begin. Kohli averages almost 60 in ODI cricket with a strike rate close to 94. Those are not “great” numbers. Those are alien numbers. Add 54 ODI hundreds while playing barely around two thirds of the matches Sachin played, and the comparison starts becoming heavily one sided statistically. And then comes the biggest separator: chasing. Kohli averages around 65 in successful ODI chases. That is absurd. Entire teams psychologically folded if Kohli was still batting at 35 or 40 overs. People throw around the word “clutch” casually now, but Kohli genuinely built a career out of winning pressure games. You mentioned “real cricket” and ICC tournaments. Fine. Let us talk knockouts then. Sachin played 7 ICC ODI World Cup knockout matches across 6 World Cups and never scored a hundred in any of them. 2 World Cup finals, failed in both. Kohli’s knockout and pressure game record genuinely dwarfs Sachin’s in ODIs. I have personally lost count of the number of crunch matches Kohli dragged India through. And another thing people conveniently ignore: Kohli did this batting at No. 3 with middle order responsibility, not as an opener enjoying 15 overs of field restrictions for most of his career like Sachin often did. Sachin frequently played in teams where the middle order collapsed around him, agreed. But Kohli inherited a stronger ODI setup and then became the setup itself. For almost a decade, India’s ODI blueprint was literally: “Bat around Kohli.” As for captaincy, bringing up isolated selection mistakes does not suddenly erase the fact that Kohli statistically was India’s most successful Test captain. India became an absolute monster at home under him and far more competitive overseas than under previous eras. We routinely steamrolled teams in Tests under Kohli in a way I had honestly never seen before. And if captaincy is the metric, then let us not even open the conversation about Sachin’s captaincy stint. I have been watching cricket since 1995. Sachin’s peak from roughly 1995 to 1998 was unbelievable and probably the most magical batting peak I have ever seen. But Kohli’s peak lasted far longer and the ceiling, especially in ODI cricket, was even higher.
Mariyam Posted May 17 Posted May 17 12 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: @Mariyam I think you're conflating a few things. :) Nobody is defending Kohli's off-field duplicity or on-field rash behavior. I dislike that side of him as much as you do. But using it to diminish his cricketing achievements is mixing up two separate things entirely. You called him "a cultural icon more than a batting icon" and also said you don't follow cricket closely. Those two positions contradict each other. Kohli is one of the greatest batting icons in cricket history. He is India's most successful Test captain ever and by a long way. In white-ball cricket, he is the greatest ODI player of all time, several notches above even Sachin Tendulkar. This isn't opinion -- it's borne out by the impossible chases he has won for India, and by numbers that are qualitatively far superior to Sachin's in that format. Australia's greatest bowlers, in a recent discussion, unanimously placed Kohli well above Sachin as a limited-overs batter. Sachin would likely concede it too. As far as Samay Raina is concerned his style is well-known for heavy use of profanity even much before Latent. Being funny doesn't give you a free pass. And Raina knows exactly what he's doing. He's said it himself: abuses get views and money. You live in Mumbai full time; I visit a few weeks a year. The change hits you differently when you're not used to it. The way teenagers talk in malls, cafes, restaurants ( BC and MC gaalis thrown around like commas ) it's jarring. This didn't come from nowhere. Tens of millions of young people watch this guy. When he makes abusive language the punchline to every other joke, kids pick it up, normalize it, run with it. Of course they do. We've essentially told them this is what's funny, this is how you get attention. What we're watching play out in public spaces is a direct result of platforming people like Raina. That's the whole point I'm making. I *did not* call Kohli a cultural icon more than a batting icon. That was @kosingh Clearly you are conflating things and then projecting it onto others. I have not diminished Kohli's on field achievements. Where did you see that? Are you sure you are replying to me? In any case, what is the point of discussing Samay or Sachin in this thread? The street always had crude language. Malls and Restaurants were devoid of that behaviour as it was generally visited by families of middle/upper middle class kids. Malls are not that exclusive anymore. As India lifted people out of the poverty, the mall became a part of the 'street'. Samay is not the reason kids abuse. By that logic, the reach of Kohli is multitudes of times of Samay. He is far more to blame. Besides, kids aren't supposed to watch Samay's stuff. Kids are allowed to watch cricket.
Ultimate_Game Posted May 17 Posted May 17 7 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: Dude, you are factually so wrong here that I genuinely do not even know where to begin. Kohli averages almost 60 in ODI cricket with a strike rate close to 94. Those are not “great” numbers. Those are alien numbers. Add 54 ODI hundreds while playing barely around two thirds of the matches Sachin played, and the comparison starts becoming heavily one sided statistically. And then comes the biggest separator: chasing. Kohli averages around 65 in successful ODI chases. That is absurd. Entire teams psychologically folded if Kohli was still batting at 35 or 40 overs. People throw around the word “clutch” casually now, but Kohli genuinely built a career out of winning pressure games. You mentioned “real cricket” and ICC tournaments. Fine. Let us talk knockouts then. Sachin played 7 ICC ODI World Cup knockout matches across 6 World Cups and never scored a hundred in any of them. 2 World Cup finals, failed in both. Kohli’s knockout and pressure game record genuinely dwarfs Sachin’s in ODIs. I have personally lost count of the number of crunch matches Kohli dragged India through. And another thing people conveniently ignore: Kohli did this batting at No. 3 with middle order responsibility, not as an opener enjoying 15 overs of field restrictions for most of his career like Sachin often did. Sachin frequently played in teams where the middle order collapsed around him, agreed. But Kohli inherited a stronger ODI setup and then became the setup itself. For almost a decade, India’s ODI blueprint was literally: “Bat around Kohli.” As for captaincy, bringing up isolated selection mistakes does not suddenly erase the fact that Kohli statistically was India’s most successful Test captain. India became an absolute monster at home under him and far more competitive overseas than under previous eras. We routinely steamrolled teams in Tests under Kohli in a way I had honestly never seen before. And if captaincy is the metric, then let us not even open the conversation about Sachin’s captaincy stint. I have been watching cricket since 1995. Sachin’s peak from roughly 1995 to 1998 was unbelievable and probably the most magical batting peak I have ever seen. But Kohli’s peak lasted far longer and the ceiling, especially in ODI cricket, was even higher. You can make any arguments for him and come up with stats as much as you want to. The fact remains Kohli's numbers haven't made a difference to our WC fortunes and he has gone missing on the biggest stage. Averaging 60 in bilaterals means squat when you go missing in the big matches. I would take someone like Travis Head who showed up in WTC Final and the ODI WC final to win 2 tourneys or Smith who showed up in 2015 WC. Kohli is like a rich man's Babar - all the stats but none of the impact.
rangeelaraja Posted May 17 Posted May 17 1 hour ago, Ultimate_Game said: You can make any arguments for him and come up with stats as much as you want to. The fact remains Kohli's numbers haven't made a difference to our WC fortunes and he has gone missing on the biggest stage. Averaging 60 in bilaterals means squat when you go missing in the big matches. I would take someone like Travis Head who showed up in WTC Final and the ODI WC final to win 2 tourneys or Smith who showed up in 2015 WC. Kohli is like a rich man's Babar - all the stats but none of the impact. FACTS: 1. Sachin played 7 ICC ODI World Cup knockout matches across 6 World Cups and never scored a hundred in any of them. 2 World Cup finals, failed in both, including one on his home ground in 2011. So if biggest stage is your measure than Ponting, Gilchrist and Travis head must be head and shouders ahead of Sachin as ODI players for their performances in knockouts and finals. Common now, lets us your argument consistently. Shall we ? 2. Sachin as great and consistent the accumulator he was - he really filled his boots against minnows in world cup. Total 6 centuries 6 world cups.. 3 against associate/minnow nations (Kenya twice + Namibia) 3 against full-member/Test nations (Australia, England, and SA) So 3 centuries against non-associate teams in 6 whole world cups , with 2 WC final failures. who is the rich man's Babar Azam again, by your yardstick ?? 3. Kohli did score a century in the 2023 WC semis against NZ. 4. Kohli's matching winning centuries while chasing is on a different planet. Sachin is not even in the same league. OPINION OF GREATS: 1. I already shared the opinion of Aussie legend bowlers - who put Kohli well ahead of Sachin. 2. Ponting reitereated the same - https://sports.ndtv.com/icc-champions-trophy-2025/ricky-ponting-ends-virat-kohli-vs-sachin-tendulkar-debate-in-odi-cricket-with-unfiltered-verdict-7788992 Fortunately their opinion matters much more than mine or yours.
Ultimate_Game Posted May 17 Posted May 17 11 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: FACTS: 1. Sachin played 7 ICC ODI World Cup knockout matches across 6 World Cups and never scored a hundred in any of them. 2 World Cup finals, failed in both, including one on his home ground in 2011. So if biggest stage is your measure than Ponting, Gilchrist and Travis head must be head and shouders ahead of Sachin as ODI players for their performances in knockouts and finals. Common now, lets us your argument consistently. Shall we ? 2. Sachin as great and consistent the accumulator he was - he really filled his boots against minnows in world cup. Total 6 centuries 6 world cups.. 3 against associate/minnow nations (Kenya twice + Namibia) 3 against full-member/Test nations (Australia, England, and SA) So 3 centuries against non-associate teams in 6 whole world cups , with 2 WC final failures. who is the rich man's Babar Azam again, by your yardstick ?? 3. Kohli did score a century in the 2023 WC semis against NZ. 4. Kohli's matching winning centuries while chasing is on a different planet. Sachin is not even in the same league. OPINION OF GREATS: 1. I already shared the opinion of Aussie legend bowlers - who put Kohli well ahead of Sachin. 2. Ponting reitereated the same - https://sports.ndtv.com/icc-champions-trophy-2025/ricky-ponting-ends-virat-kohli-vs-sachin-tendulkar-debate-in-odi-cricket-with-unfiltered-verdict-7788992 Fortunately their opinion matters much more than mine or yours. FACTS: 1. Kohli has won 0 WC where he made a major contribution. He should learn from likes of Gambhir and Head how to show up in big games. 2. In 2023 WC SF it was Iyer who played the match-defining innings. Kohli's knock was the slowest of all the other batters and if not for Iyer we were looking at a 330ish total and would've ended in another WC knockout defeat, which anyways happened in the final thanks to the so called star not showing up. 3. All his "match-winning" centuries came in meaningless bilaterals. When the stakes were high he went missing just like he does in IPL playoffs. Too bad the "Bilateral King" doesn't have any chase in a WC knockout. He had his chances in 2015 WC SF and the 2019 WC SF and we all know what he did. Laid an egg. And in 2023 ODI WC Final pottered around after Rohit had given such a great start. 4. "Opinion of greats" is more of a running joke as they've seen Kohli fail in big games while Aussies and Eng won the WC tourney. This is no different than commies and so called experts biggying up Babar and how great he is. We know the real truth. At the end of the day Kohli failed to back ATG bowlers like Bumrah and Shami when all they needed was just a bit of support from stars and the so called "King" Kohli. Wish we had likes of Head or Smith or Gambhir who showed up when needed.
rangeelaraja Posted May 17 Posted May 17 9 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: FACTS: 1. Kohli has won 0 WC where he made a major contribution. He should learn from likes of Gambhir and Head how to show up in big games. Why not Sachin ? Because he is a worse ?? Can't defend Sachin anymore statistically so making round about arguments. 11 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: "Opinion of greats" is more of a running joke as they've seen Kohli fail in big games while Aussies and Eng won the WC tourney. This is no different than commies and so called experts biggying up Babar and how great he is. We know the real truth. They have all also seen how Sachin fails in clutch situations and thats why rate Kohli better, a more clutch player finishes chasing tight games, like Kohli has for his entire career. Sachin has been a failure in 50 over knockouts over 6 world cups. 2 failed final performances. It was almost predictable that when there was a big game against Aus, Mcgrath would get Sachin easy. No wonder Mcgrath and Ponting both put Kohli ahead of Sachin. Sachin's last game was to help fulfill is 100th 100. Scored at a blistering strike rate of 77. India lost that game to Bangladesh !!! https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/asia-cup-2011-12-524504/bangladesh-vs-india-4th-match-535797/full-scorecard Thats the difference between someone obsessed with personal milestones vs. one who always played to win - at all. costs - and it showed in the inumberable number of tight games Kohli won for India - the last being the 2024 T20 WC Final ( not a 50 over world cup, but ICC world cup none the less ) If performance in biggest games in 50 over world cup is the sole decider - then Jayawardene, Aravinda DeSilva, Ponting, Gilchrist, Travis Head are way bigger players than Sachin ever can be. Cool ?
Ultimate_Game Posted May 17 Posted May 17 3 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: Why not Sachin ? Because he is a worse ?? Can't defend Sachin anymore statistically so making round about arguments. They have all also seen how Sachin fails in clutch situations and thats why rate Kohli better, a more clutch player finishes chasing tight games, like Kohli has for his entire career. Sachin has been a failure in 50 over knockouts over 6 world cups. 2 failed final performances. It was almost predictable that when there was a big game against Aus, Mcgrath would get Sachin easy. No wonder Mcgrath and Ponting both put Kohli ahead of Sachin. Sachin's last game was to help fulfill is 100th 100. Scored at a blistering strike rate of 77. India lost that game to Bangladesh !!! https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/asia-cup-2011-12-524504/bangladesh-vs-india-4th-match-535797/full-scorecard Thats the difference between someone obsessed with personal milestones vs. one who always played to win - at all. costs - and it showed in the inumberable number of tight games Kohli won for India - the last being the 2024 T20 WC Final ( not a 50 over world cup, but ICC world cup none the less ) If performance in biggest games in 50 over world cup is the sole decider - then Jayawardene, Aravinda DeSilva, Ponting, Gilchrist, Travis Head are way bigger players than Sachin ever can be. Cool ? Tendulkar never had the bowling attack to win, nor the support cast. If Tendulkar had our ATG bowling lineup with likes of Bumrah and peak Shami, he would've done much better. Unfortunately he had bowlers who conceded 360 in the final. Difference between failing when you're chasing 360 (Tendulkar) and 239 (Kohli). At the end of the day players like Kohli and Babar are there as answers to Quiz questions "Which batter had average of 60 with 40+ 100s?" and not the ones who wins tournies. Kohli is way ahead of Babar (rich man's Babar) but impact has been quite similar. If you can't win with likes of Bumrah and peak Shami in the team, what's the point of you being there? I may as well go with IPL kids who at least show up and perform when needed the way they did in the recent WT20.
rangeelaraja Posted May 17 Posted May 17 2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: Tendulkar never had the bowling attack to win, nor the support cast. If Tendulkar had our ATG bowling lineup with likes of Bumrah and peak Shami, he would've done much better. Unfortunately he had bowlers who conceded 360 in the final. Difference between failing when you're chasing 360 (Tendulkar) and 239 (Kohli). At the end of the day players like Kohli and Babar are there as answers to Quiz questions "Which batter had average of 60 with 40+ 100s?" and not the ones who wins tournies. Kohli is way ahead of Babar (rich man's Babar) but impact has been quite similar. If you can't win with likes of Bumrah and peak Shami in the team, what's the point of you being there? I may as well go with IPL kids who at least show up and perform when needed the way they did in the recent WT20. How does Sachin's failure with the bat in crunch games ICC knockout games and poor scores get justified with your argument of no support ( again a false argument ) He failed in the 2011 finals too chasing 270 odd in Wankhede. Perhaps he should learn from Yuvraj, Gambhir - who might not have his numbers but show up when it matters the most. Sachin's failures in games that mattered are legendary. I remember the 2002 Natwest, India dominated the entire series. Sachin filled his boots in the league games and then failed miserably in the final when India was chasing 320+. It again took someone like Yuvraj to guide India to victory. Your attempt to degrade Kohli by comparing him to Babar is hilarous. A more apt comparision would be Sachin and Babar. Both are Zimbabwe killers. Remember the amount of hype that Sachin's rivalry with Henry Olanga got. LOL.
Ultimate_Game Posted May 17 Posted May 17 1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said: How does Sachin's failure with the bat in crunch games ICC knockout games and poor scores get justified with your argument of no support ( again a false argument ) He failed in the 2011 finals too chasing 270 odd in Wankhede. Perhaps he should learn from Yuvraj, Gambhir - who might not have his numbers but show up when it matters the most. Sachin's failures in games that mattered are legendary. I remember the 2002 Natwest, India dominated the entire series. Sachin filled his boots in the league games and then failed miserably in the final when India was chasing 320+. It again took someone like Yuvraj to guide India to victory. Your attempt to degrade Kohli by comparing him to Babar is hilarous. A more apt comparision would be Sachin and Babar. Both are Zimbabwe killers. Remember the amount of hype that Sachin's rivalry with Henry Olanga got. LOL. All I know is nobody shouts from the rooftops "King" Tendulkar or "chase master" blah blah blah... these things come up for Kohli and his fanboys never stop ranting about it despite doing zilch under pressure. He has been useless in Tests as our home domination was built on the backs of Ashwin, Jadeja and our lower order. Away matches he hasn't played a difference making knocks even once when our rookies beat Aus in Aus showing Kohli has been a passenger and not of much value. In ODIs he has been a bilateral King with no-shows in big matches. If Tendulkar's fans were going ga ga over him every single day would probably say something about that too but here the very fact you're saying "what about tendulkar" shows Kohli himself hasn't done much and the whataboutism is all about making excuses. Zero WC trophies in supposedly his best format where he averages 60 and has number of hundreds in "successful chases". Pity none of them came when the team really needed it in a World Cup. Big players show up in big matches and not tout their accomplishments in bilaterals where majority of teams don't even play their best XI quite often.
rangeelaraja Posted May 17 Posted May 17 24 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: All I know is nobody shouts from the rooftops "King" Tendulkar or "chase master" blah blah blah... these things come up for Kohli and his fanboys never stop ranting about it despite doing zilch under pressure. He has been useless in Tests as our home domination was built on the backs of Ashwin, Jadeja and our lower order. Away matches he hasn't played a difference making knocks even once when our rookies beat Aus in Aus showing Kohli has been a passenger and not of much value. In ODIs he has been a bilateral King with no-shows in big matches. If Tendulkar's fans were going ga ga over him every single day would probably say something about that too but here the very fact you're saying "what about tendulkar" shows Kohli himself hasn't done much and the whataboutism is all about making excuses. Zero WC trophies in supposedly his best format where he averages 60 and has number of hundreds in "successful chases". Pity none of them came when the team really needed it in a World Cup. Big players show up in big matches and not tout their accomplishments in bilaterals where majority of teams don't even play their best XI quite often. Don't shift goal posts from ODIs to Test batsmenship. Kohli is India's greatest test captain (not batter ) by a long shot. Period. Your arguments that he had an great attack are extremely hollow. Going by that logic, Steve Waugh, Ponting, Clive Llyod are all over rated test captains because they had many ATGs. Doesn't even make sense. SRT has almost predictably failed when it mattered the most - over 6 effing World cups. I am not a fanboy of anybody. Prefer to call a spade a spade. Kohli the ODI batter is several notches above Tendulkar - winning performances, records, runs, opinions of great cricketers -- all bear that out. When it mattered most- Tendulkar was outshined by the likes of Dhoni, Yuvraj, Gambhir etc. If only WC performances knockout performances decide a players caliber then Jayawardene, Desilva, Ponting, Gilchrist and Travis Head are far superior than Tendulkar who failed 2/2 in Finals. So either stick by this argument or don't bring it up.
rangeelaraja Posted May 17 Posted May 17 (edited) Virat Kohli - India's greatest captain EVER. More wins and greater win % than the ATG West Indian team - led by Clive Llyod and Viv Richards. Only bettered by the GOAT teams under Ponting (marginally) and Waugh. First Indian captain to win a test series IN AUSTRALIA in 2018/19. Ahh he was lucky to have a good attack. You see afterall Steve Waugh, Ponting, Clive Llyod and Viv Richards had such poor attacks. MOST SUCCESSFUL TEST CAPTAINS EVER . # Captain Country Played Won Win % 1 Steve Waugh AUS 57 41 71.9% 2 Ricky Ponting AUS 77 48 62.3% 3 Virat Kohli IND 68 40 58.8% 4 Viv Richards WI 50 27 54.0% 5 Hansie Cronje SA 53 27 50.9% 6 Michael Vaughan ENG 51 26 51.0% 7 Graeme Smith SA 109 53 48.6% 8 Clive Lloyd WI 74 36 48.6% 9 MS Dhoni IND 60 27 45.0% 10 Joe Root ENG 64 27 42.2% Edited May 17 by rangeelaraja
Ultimate_Game Posted May 17 Posted May 17 4 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: Virat Kohli - India's greatest captain EVER. More wins and greater win % than the ATG West Indian team - led by Clive Llyod and Viv Richards. Only bettered by the GOAT teams under Ponting (marginally) and Waugh. First Indian captain to win a test series IN AUSTRALIA in 2018/19. Ahh he was lucky to have a good attack. You see afterall Steve Waugh, Ponting, Clive Llyod and Viv Richards had such poor attacks. MOST SUCCESSFUL TEST CAPTAINS EVER . # Captain Country Played Won Win % 1 Steve Waugh AUS 57 41 71.9% 2 Ricky Ponting AUS 77 48 62.3% 3 Virat Kohli IND 68 40 58.8% 4 Viv Richards WI 50 27 54.0% 5 Hansie Cronje SA 53 27 50.9% 6 Michael Vaughan ENG 51 26 51.0% 7 Graeme Smith SA 109 53 48.6% 8 Clive Lloyd WI 74 36 48.6% 9 MS Dhoni IND 60 27 45.0% 10 Joe Root ENG 64 27 42.2% So now from Kohli as the greatest and ATG batter, we're on to our greatest captain. Talking about moving goalposts That Aus win was on the backs of Bumrah, Pujara, Pant, Jadeja and a rookie Mayank Aggarwal. They were the ones who showed up coz didn't see Kohli doing much. And we all know what happened in our greatest ever Test series win in BGT 2020-21 where Kohli ran away after the 1st Test humiliation. Rahane took over the team full of youngsters and won the series proving Kohli was useless and not needed. He was simply riding on other players' accomplishments. All I remember from Kohli is excuses like "one bad day", "one poor session", "30 mins of bad luck". He has been the King of excuses while riding other players' coattails, specially our bowlers (Bumrah, Shami, Siraj away), bowling all-rounders at home (Ashwin, Jadeja, Axar), Pant, Pujara and rookies. All we hear are soundbites like "I don't need to prove anything" without actually winning anything of note or playing a tourney defining innings like Gambhir, Head, Smith etc. Kohli's main achievement is being at the right place at the right time and riding on accomplishments of the players I mentioned above.
rangeelaraja Posted May 17 Posted May 17 15 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: So now from Kohli as the greatest and ATG batter, we're on to our greatest captain. Talking about moving goalposts That Aus win was on the backs of Bumrah, Pujara, Pant, Jadeja and a rookie Mayank Aggarwal. They were the ones who showed up coz didn't see Kohli doing much. And we all know what happened in our greatest ever Test series win in BGT 2020-21 where Kohli ran away after the 1st Test humiliation. Rahane took over the team full of youngsters and won the series proving Kohli was useless and not needed. He was simply riding on other players' accomplishments. All I remember from Kohli is excuses like "one bad day", "one poor session", "30 mins of bad luck". He has been the King of excuses while riding other players' coattails, specially our bowlers (Bumrah, Shami, Siraj away), bowling all-rounders at home (Ashwin, Jadeja, Axar), Pant, Pujara and rookies. All we hear are soundbites like "I don't need to prove anything" without actually winning anything of note or playing a tourney defining innings like Gambhir, Head, Smith etc. Kohli's main achievement is being at the right place at the right time and riding on accomplishments of the players I mentioned above. I have never brought him up as a test batter… Can you comprehend or point me to where I have ? I always maintained he is our GOAT test captain and the GOAT ODI and LOI player. All your excuses and arguments busted, you are only left to resort to whataboutery and selective quotes. Facts speak for themselves. Kohli is called as a hyped ODI player because he failed in some big games, but the same yardstick doesn’t apply to SRT who by that regard has been a failure for 6 - 50 over world cups. 2 finals. LOL. do you even read your own posts ?
Ultimate_Game Posted May 17 Posted May 17 2 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: I have never brought him up as a test batter… Can you comprehend or point me to where I have ? I always maintained he is our GOAT test captain and the GOAT ODI and LOI player. All your excuses and arguments busted, you are only left to resort to whataboutery and selective quotes. Facts speak for themselves. Kohli is called as a hyped ODI player because he failed in some big games, but the same yardstick doesn’t apply to SRT who by that regard has been a failure for 6 - 50 over world cups. 2 finals. LOL. do you even read your own posts ? If you're supposed to be the ATG and the so called "King" in ODIs you have to show up in the biggest event for ODIS, i.e. the WC. And Kohli hasn't. He shat the bed in every WC. Nobody cares about "average of 60" or "greatest chaser" when you failed to do that across 3 straight WC knockouts. Show up in big matches then there can be an argument but when you don't show up in the biggest games, you can't be the best.
rangeelaraja Posted May 18 Posted May 18 8 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: If you're supposed to be the ATG and the so called "King" in ODIs you have to show up in the biggest event for ODIS, i.e. the WC. And Kohli hasn't. He shat the bed in every WC. Nobody cares about "average of 60" or "greatest chaser" when you failed to do that across 3 straight WC knockouts. Show up in big matches then there can be an argument but when you don't show up in the biggest games, you can't be the best. It doesn't apply to Sachin ? Why does he have 0 centuries in 7 knockout matches in world cups ? Why did he flop so miserably in 2 WC Finals ?
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