Ultimate_Game Posted May 18 Posted May 18 36 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: It doesn't apply to Sachin ? Why does he have 0 centuries in 7 knockout matches in world cups ? Why did he flop so miserably in 2 WC Finals ? I don't care about Tendulkar. His fans don't tout him to be the "greatest", "chasemaster", "king of chases" etc. Kohli's fanboys do and come up with his average of 60 and his countless chases at the drop of the hat. And guess what - all those stats, averages and chases and "no show" in big games in WCs just like he does in IPL playoffs - stat pads in the group stages and then goes missing in playoffs.
Adamant Posted May 18 Posted May 18 12 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said: I don't care about Tendulkar. His fans don't tout him to be the "greatest", "chasemaster", "king of chases" etc. Kohli's fanboys do and come up with his average of 60 and his countless chases at the drop of the hat. And guess what - all those stats, averages and chases and "no show" in big games in WCs just like he does in IPL playoffs - stat pads in the group stages and then goes missing in playoffs. He has shown enough, its your fault if uou close your eyes everytime he does it. CT 2025 semis, CT 13 semis, T20 wc 14 semi and finals, 2016 t20 semis, 2024 t20 wc final, 2023 semis. He is possibly Indias best ever KO player.
Ultimate_Game Posted May 18 Posted May 18 2 hours ago, Adamant said: He has shown enough, its your fault if uou close your eyes everytime he does it. CT 2025 semis, CT 13 semis, T20 wc 14 semi and finals, 2016 t20 semis, 2024 t20 wc final, 2023 semis. He is possibly Indias best ever KO player. That would be Gambhir. Showed up every time in big matches. And the biggest tournament player is Bumrah who won 2 WT20 tournies where he got support from the batters.
rangeelaraja Posted May 18 Posted May 18 18 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said: I don't care about Tendulkar. His fans don't tout him to be the "greatest", "chasemaster", "king of chases" etc. Kohli's fanboys do and come up with his average of 60 and his countless chases at the drop of the hat. And guess what - all those stats, averages and chases and "no show" in big games in WCs just like he does in IPL playoffs - stat pads in the group stages and then goes missing in playoffs. So according to you, greatness is only about finals and knockout games.Fine. Then when Sachin’s poor ODI World Cup knockout record gets pointed out, suddenly the excuse becomes “he had no support.” Which is objectively false. India reached the 2003 final and won the 2011 World Cup. That is not a weak team. And more importantly, what exactly does “lack of support” have to do with Sachin himself not scoring a single ODI World Cup knockout hundred across 6 World Cups? You completely dodged that part. And Kohli does not need your approval to be called the king of chases. 28 centuries in winning chases. ~65 average in successful chases. These are absurd numbers. Kohli has won numerous semis in knockouts for India. Kohli also scored the highest for India in the 2024 T20 WC final which India barely won. You credit Bumrah for it, but not that Kohli was the highest scorer in that final which won India the trophy. Shows your agenda. Except the 2017 CT final he has steamrolled Pak in most big games. Also, the “Kohli only succeeded because of Bumrah, Ashwin and Jadeja” logic is hilarious. So did Ponting and Waugh not benefit from McGrath and Warne? Did Clive Lloyd not benefit from the greatest pace attack ever? Great captains having great teams is how sports work. The difference is what they sustain and achieve with those teams. Kohli is the 3rd most sucessful test captain ever -- after Waugh and Ponting. Your logic changes depending on which player you are defending. That is why it comes across as agenda-driven, not objective. Enough said, its clear you have a personal bias and agenda.
Ultimate_Game Posted May 18 Posted May 18 1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said: So according to you, greatness is only about finals and knockout games.Fine. Then when Sachin’s poor ODI World Cup knockout record gets pointed out, suddenly the excuse becomes “he had no support.” Which is objectively false. India reached the 2003 final and won the 2011 World Cup. That is not a weak team. And more importantly, what exactly does “lack of support” have to do with Sachin himself not scoring a single ODI World Cup knockout hundred across 6 World Cups? You completely dodged that part. And Kohli does not need your approval to be called the king of chases. 28 centuries in winning chases. ~65 average in successful chases. These are absurd numbers. Kohli has won numerous semis in knockouts for India. Kohli also scored the highest for India in the 2024 T20 WC final which India barely won. You credit Bumrah for it, but not that Kohli was the highest scorer in that final which won India the trophy. Shows your agenda. Except the 2017 CT final he has steamrolled Pak in most big games. Also, the “Kohli only succeeded because of Bumrah, Ashwin and Jadeja” logic is hilarious. So did Ponting and Waugh not benefit from McGrath and Warne? Did Clive Lloyd not benefit from the greatest pace attack ever? Great captains having great teams is how sports work. The difference is what they sustain and achieve with those teams. Kohli is the 3rd most sucessful test captain ever -- after Waugh and Ponting. Your logic changes depending on which player you are defending. That is why it comes across as agenda-driven, not objective. Enough said, its clear you have a personal bias and agenda. No personal bias and agenda. I simply want to see India win. That's it. Kohli may have done well but you can't be the best player in ODIs and an ODI GOAT without showing up in the biggest matches. Richards is known for his exploits in WC finals in 70s, Ponting is hailed for his stellar knock in 20023 WC final, Aravinda De Silva is revered highly for his great knocks in SF and Final of 1996 WC, Gilchrist is admired for his finals performances in 2000s, Gambhir is rated highly for his match-winning top scores in 2007 WT20 and 2011 WC final, Smith was the difference maker with his knock in 2015 WC SF, Stokes showed up in 2019 WC final, and Travis Head played outstanding innings in 2023 WC final and WTC final. Whether you like it or not but performances in these big games count. You can't be the best player in a format without showing up in the big matches. Samson was hailed for his performances in 3 back to back knockout games against WI, Eng and NZ in WT20. If he had played the same knocks in group stages or in bilaterals nobody would even bat an eye. But his performances came in the biggest games of the tourney so he was praised for the same. In cricket context matters. Now tell me where was Kohli in the ODIs as I've listed the key performers for ODI WCs. Performing in bilaterals or breaking records after records in those games doesn't count. The key is to show up and take the big matches by the scruff of their necks and make an impact. Something the above-mentioned players did. Kohli was great in T20s from 2014 to 2018. His performances in 2014 WT20 and 2016 WT20 were something to write about, and he was the best T20 batter and will probably be the T20 GOAT of 2010s. But in Tests he was average to decent and in ODIs he was very good but not the best coz he didn't perform in the big games in ODIs the way he did in T20. As for beating Pak, nearly every Indian team has done so. Tendulkar himself won 3 MoM awards against Pak in the 5 WC matches he played against them. And the recent Asia Cup and WT20 showed that even our IPL kids are good enough to do so. Pak in 2000s have been almost minnow level and the only reason we enjoy beating them is due to the political context and partition else we would've moved on the same way we no longer enjoy playing or beating Sri Lanka. Whether you call me hater or biased, for me if a player can't win the biggest trophy then how can you be the best? And Kohli had his chances. In 2015 WC SF against Aussies Dhawan had provided a rocking start and India was around 80 in around 12 overs or so. A bilateral Kohli innings would've won us the SF and then we would've faced mental midgets kiwis in the final. That was the time for Kohli to show he was the King but what did he do? He pottered around and was overwhelmed and got out in single digits and with his wicket India was done. He had an even better chance in 2019 WC SF. We were facing kiwis and the target was only 239. All we had to do was play out the new ball and we would've won. RR wasn't even an issue and what did Kohli, the so called ODI GOAT and the "chase master", do? He got out for 1 (or a duck) leaving India in tatters. All he had to do was show up and he didn't. Then comes the 2023 WC final. This one was at home and we were the overwhelming favorites. Surely Kohli would stamp his authority on the game and the tourney? He came in after Rohit had given a pretty decent start. India was 80 off 10 overs. All Kohli had to do was bat through the innings at 5 an over and India would have a total around 300. But he struggled along with KL. KL was the bigger culprit but I didn't see anything from Kohli either. He once against went into his shell and played a very underwhelming knock. Would you rate that knock from the so called ODI GOAT? I wouldn't. In nutshell, Kohli had multiple chances and he failed everytime and that's why he isn't the GOAT in my book. A very good ODI batter but someone who couldn't make an impact when needed. But I would rate him as a Bilateral King though.
rangeelaraja Posted May 19 Posted May 19 ^^ @Ultimate_Game I say this with utmost good intent: you genuinely need therapy if a cricket debate triggers this level of vitriol. I do not have the time or patience to read 500 word emotional meltdowns defending a player whose ODI knockout record you yourself cannot defend objectively. Your two main arguments got completely dismantled: “Finals define greatness” “Kohli only succeeded because of his team” The moment those exact standards were applied back to Sachin, your entire logic collapsed instantly. And the funniest part is you still responded with emotion instead of counter arguments. Anyway, I will let you have the last word. At this point, your arguments are not analytical, they are emotional, dishonest and hypocritical.
Adamant Posted May 19 Posted May 19 13 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said: That would be Gambhir. Showed up every time in big matches. And the biggest tournament player is Bumrah who won 2 WT20 tournies where he got support from the batters. Gambhir showed up in two knockouts, the count is seven for Kohli. You lost again.
rangeelaraja Posted May 19 Posted May 19 (edited) On 5/17/2026 at 4:15 AM, Mariyam said: I *did not* call Kohli a cultural icon more than a batting icon. That was @kosingh Clearly you are conflating things and then projecting it onto others. I have not diminished Kohli's on field achievements. Where did you see that? Are you sure you are replying to me? In any case, what is the point of discussing Samay or Sachin in this thread? The street always had crude language. Malls and Restaurants were devoid of that behaviour as it was generally visited by families of middle/upper middle class kids. Malls are not that exclusive anymore. As India lifted people out of the poverty, the mall became a part of the 'street'. Samay is not the reason kids abuse. By that logic, the reach of Kohli is multitudes of times of Samay. He is far more to blame. Besides, kids aren't supposed to watch Samay's stuff. Kids are allowed to watch cricket. @Mariyam You concurred with him and then went on a rampage against Delhi subculture. None of your arguments are cogent. I know you may be friends with Balraj Ghai, who is a close partner of Raina and that entire coterie that uses the excuse of providing a platform ( purely for their commercial benefit, admittedly ) to upcoming artistes who normalize abuse for views and money. This is how these shameless lowlives conduct themselves in public life, portraying a personna that this language and niche is how one can acan establish a young audience that will lap up and run with this. Unfortunately this has spawned alot of pretenders ( including girls) who do worse for fame and attention. It is blatantly wrong to say " Besides, kids aren't supposed to watch Samay's stuff " . They deliberately optimize titles, thumbnails, and metadata to go viral and attract as many views as possible. You can’t game the algorithm for maximum reach and then pretend kids won’t see it. First you tried to defend this " witty" lowlife by saying except for Latent, he is not a abuser, now the goal post just shifted to kids are not supposed to watch Samay's stuff These lowlives may be your friends, but they are despicable people who can stoop to any low for financial gain. Edited May 19 by rangeelaraja
Mariyam Posted May 19 Posted May 19 1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said: @Mariyam You concurred with him and then went on a rampage against Delhi subculture. None of your arguments are cogent. I know you may be friends with Balraj Ghai, who is a close partner of Raina and that entire coterie that uses the excuse of providing a platform ( purely for their commercial benefit, admittedly ) to upcoming artistes who normalize abuse for views and money. This is how these shameless lowlives conduct themselves in public life, portraying a personna that this language and niche is how one can acan establish a young audience that will lap up and run with this. Unfortunately this has spawned alot of pretenders ( including girls) who do worse for fame and attention. It is blatantly wrong to say " Besides, kids aren't supposed to watch Samay's stuff " . They deliberately optimize titles, thumbnails, and metadata to go viral and attract as many views as possible. You can’t game the algorithm for maximum reach and then pretend kids won’t see it. First you tried to defend this " witty" lowlife by saying except for Latent, he is not a abuser, now the goal post just shifted to kids are not supposed to watch Samay's stuff These lowlives may be your friends, but they are despicable people who can stoop to any low for financial gain. Rampage? One line is what I wrote. Spin it how you like, I didn’t call Kohli a cultural icon. Concurring doesn’t change that. If Einstein wrote a paragraph on the theory of relativity and I were to reply with a ‘yes’, I can’t take credit for his work. ‘Non cogent rampage’ is the post of yours I have quoted. Have no desire to continue this strange debate. Feel free to declare a victory. rangeelaraja, Vilander and Lord 2 1
Ultimate_Game Posted May 19 Posted May 19 14 hours ago, Adamant said: Gambhir showed up in two knockouts, the count is seven for Kohli. You lost again. Gambhir won 2 World titles. Kohli hasn't other than riding on others' achievements.
Gollum Posted May 19 Posted May 19 (edited) Think Kohli 2027 will be similar to the Messi 2022 story, he looks very determined like that Messi. There is nobody remotely close to him in ODIs, last year's bilaterals against NZ/RSA should have made that clear. Let us not mix formats. Also conditions, RSA pitches suit Kohli. Edited May 19 by Gollum
Ultimate_Game Posted May 20 Posted May 20 7 hours ago, Gollum said: Think Kohli 2027 will be similar to the Messi 2022 story, he looks very determined like that Messi. There is nobody remotely close to him in ODIs, last year's bilaterals against NZ/RSA should have made that clear. Let us not mix formats. Also conditions, RSA pitches suit Kohli. If Kohli does that then I will hang a photocopy of his feet at home aur har subah haar chadake pooja karunga All I want is the 2027 ODI WC trophy
jf1gp_1 Posted May 20 Posted May 20 50 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: If Kohli does that then I will hang a photocopy of his feet at home aur har subah haar chadake pooja karunga All I want is the 2027 ODI WC trophy Same here. Given the loss of interest in ODIs not sure if there will be any takers for it 31. Will definitely be dead by 35. We have to win next one. Ultimate_Game 1
mikeypbadana86 Posted May 20 Posted May 20 On 5/17/2026 at 7:44 PM, Ultimate_Game said: I don't care about Tendulkar. His fans don't tout him to be the "greatest", "chasemaster", "king of chases" etc. Kohli's fanboys do and come up with his average of 60 and his countless chases at the drop of the hat. And guess what - all those stats, averages and chases and "no show" in big games in WCs just like he does in IPL playoffs - stat pads in the group stages and then goes missing in playoffs. Keeping personal bias aside, objectively kohli is good in knock outs . Kohli scored a half century in 2016 IPL final. No team ever since with 3rd or 4th placing in the IPL played finals or won a final. If kohli is a choker as per your claim , why is he selectively failing in ODI WC? Before we talk ODI's , lets talk about holisitically. 2014 t20 semis Knock out innings by kohli 2014 t20 final- Highest scorer Yuvraj messed up playing 11 off 21 balls 2016 t20 world cup. Virtual quarter final against Aus 82 2016 t20 semis against WI. 85+ Ashwin messed up bolwing two no balls against WI in semis 2022 t20 MCG high preassure 26 off 8 against PAK. 2024 t20 final . Good knock of 76 when team lost 3 early wickets 2013 champions trophy semis and final . Kohli scored 50+ in semis and highest scorer in final 2017 champions trophy 80+ in semis 2025 champions trophy 80+ in semis ODI world cup's 2011 . 35 off 49 and built a crucial partnership with gambhir. As a youngster, it was a good knock under preassure specially when India lost sehwag and sachin early 2015 ODI WC semi final. failed 2019 ODI WC semi final. Kohli's dimissal was unlucky. The wicket (LBW) was umpires call with ball barely clipping the top of leg stump. 2023 ODI WC world cup semis century. He was 35 and no longer in peak, you cant compare shreyas knock to his. He still scored a century 2023 ODI WC final. Kohli scored 54 off 63 balls and all set for a good knock. Its KL rahul who messed up with 66 off 105 balls. 2027 ODI WC semis & Final --------Law of averages will even out since he failed in 2015/2019, he is gonna score in 2027. Mohammed shami has better WC record than wasim akram. Does that mean Shami is an all time great like Wasim akram? Brayan lara had only one quarter final innings against SA in 1996. Does that mean Brayan lara is a lesser batter than Aravinda de silva? if you are attributing Kohli choking in high preassure knock outs, he should have done that across t20, Champions trophy too but he scored mountain of runs in knock outs there. Kohli is no mental midget like KL rahul. I don't care about Tendulkar. His fans don't tout him to be the "greatest", "chasemaster", "king of chases" etc. God of cricket, cricket god, master blaster etc to fail in 2011 WC final, 2003 ODI wc final , 2007 ODI WC virtual knock out against Bangladesh/SL, 1999 ODI WC failure? 2011 ODI semis Sachin scored and he might have fit your 'scoring in knock out'....Sachin was dropped 4 times in ODI WC semis. I am not denying Kohli has average ODI WC record, i am sure he is gonna end up on right side of luck/law of averages in 2027 ODI WC. we can re-asses this thread/argument once 2027 ODI WC is concluded.
New guy Posted May 21 Posted May 21 (edited) 13 hours ago, mikeypbadana86 said: Keeping personal bias aside, objectively kohli is good in knock outs . Kohli scored a half century in 2016 IPL final. No team ever since with 3rd or 4th placing in the IPL played finals or won a final. If kohli is a choker as per your claim , why is he selectively failing in ODI WC? Before we talk ODI's , lets talk about holisitically. 2014 t20 semis Knock out innings by kohli 2014 t20 final- Highest scorer Yuvraj messed up playing 11 off 21 balls 2016 t20 world cup. Virtual quarter final against Aus 82 2016 t20 semis against WI. 85+ Ashwin messed up bolwing two no balls against WI in semis 2022 t20 MCG high preassure 26 off 8 against PAK. 2024 t20 final . Good knock of 76 when team lost 3 early wickets 2013 champions trophy semis and final . Kohli scored 50+ in semis and highest scorer in final 2017 champions trophy 80+ in semis 2025 champions trophy 80+ in semis ODI world cup's 2011 . 35 off 49 and built a crucial partnership with gambhir. As a youngster, it was a good knock under preassure specially when India lost sehwag and sachin early 2015 ODI WC semi final. failed 2019 ODI WC semi final. Kohli's dimissal was unlucky. The wicket (LBW) was umpires call with ball barely clipping the top of leg stump. 2023 ODI WC world cup semis century. He was 35 and no longer in peak, you cant compare shreyas knock to his. He still scored a century 2023 ODI WC final. Kohli scored 54 off 63 balls and all set for a good knock. Its KL rahul who messed up with 66 off 105 balls. 2027 ODI WC semis & Final --------Law of averages will even out since he failed in 2015/2019, he is gonna score in 2027. Mohammed shami has better WC record than wasim akram. Does that mean Shami is an all time great like Wasim akram? Brayan lara had only one quarter final innings against SA in 1996. Does that mean Brayan lara is a lesser batter than Aravinda de silva? if you are attributing Kohli choking in high preassure knock outs, he should have done that across t20, Champions trophy too but he scored mountain of runs in knock outs there. Kohli is no mental midget like KL rahul. I don't care about Tendulkar. His fans don't tout him to be the "greatest", "chasemaster", "king of chases" etc. God of cricket, cricket god, master blaster etc to fail in 2011 WC final, 2003 ODI wc final , 2007 ODI WC virtual knock out against Bangladesh/SL, 1999 ODI WC failure? 2011 ODI semis Sachin scored and he might have fit your 'scoring in knock out'....Sachin was dropped 4 times in ODI WC semis. I am not denying Kohli has average ODI WC record, i am sure he is gonna end up on right side of luck/law of averages in 2027 ODI WC. we can re-asses this thread/argument once 2027 ODI WC is concluded. Weird you use other matches for Kohli but don't acknowledge that Sachin has one of the greatest averages and performances of you take ALL finals. Some example would be the the desert storm where we defeated Australia for the first time ever in an ODI series and CB cup finals where we defeated Australia for the first time ever in Australia in ODI series. Also many of the greatest knocks in crickets, in all formats,.has dropped catches for eg Steev waughs knock in world Cup semis after Gibbs drop so peddle your agenda somewhere else.. Nice try. Edited May 21 by New guy
mikeypbadana86 Posted May 21 Posted May 21 42 minutes ago, New guy said: Weird you use other matches for Kohli but don't acknowledge that Sachin has one of the greatest averages and performances of you take ALL finals. Some example would be the the desert storm where we defeated Australia for the first time ever in an ODI series and CB cup finals where we defeated Australia for the first time ever in Australia in ODI series. Also many of the greatest knocks in crickets, in all formats,.has dropped catches for eg Steev waughs knock in world Cup semis after Gibbs drop so peddle your agenda somewhere else.. Nice try. The context was in world cup knock outs which is why I picked sachins 6 ODI woldcup knock out records. I watched sachin and kohli both in their prime. I always felt sachin did not handle the knock out final preassure as well as he could have with his ability. .has dropped catches for eg Steev waughs knock in world Cup semis after Gibbs drop Thats right. waugh was dropped once 2011 ODI WC against pakistan, sachin was dropped 4 times including a controversial DRS decision. My point was to highlight how kohli could have ended up on right side of the luck in 2019 ODI WC semfinal against NZ where his wicket was umpires call. If the umpire gave not out, he could have survived and he might as well have chased it.
Vilander Posted May 24 Posted May 24 On 5/18/2026 at 9:23 PM, rangeelaraja said: Anyway, I will let you have the last word. At this point, your arguments are not analytical, they are emotional, dishonest and hypocritical. On 5/19/2026 at 9:42 AM, rangeelaraja said: @Mariyam You concurred with him and then went on a rampage against Delhi subculture. Whine whine
test fan Posted May 25 Posted May 25 Ideally both Rohit and Kohli should not play the World Cup 2027. But Kohli still can offer some runs unlike Rohit. We are going to humiliated if we select 37 years old player's -Rohit, Virat and jaddu.
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