Deliberate and calculated attempt to undermine Sooryavanshi

[tapandrun]

2 hours ago, New guy said:

So iyer won the world cup? If he can come with way less performance, why cant Suryavanshi?

 

Double standards or deliberate dishonesty?

 

And before you state, samson can very much play in the middle order and he has shown it many times. So Surya fits in as an opener while samson fits in  the middle order as an experienced bat to replace Sky, with iyer having no place.

 

The question was never to replace abhishek, ishan, samson, they all deserve the place. The point always was Iyer or suryavanshi. The iyer online cult deliberately spreading wrong info is not fooling most people who pay attention.

 

Samson has played almost half his international career in middle order.

 

Weird how your standards dont apply to Iyer who came directly as captain based on IPL and online PR,  but this argument that we cannot replace anyone, is used to keep out the most talented batsman we have.

 

 

 

Again this is not about Iyer vs Vaibhav. things ppl always get it wrong as it was never Gill vs Sanju.

 

Sky is wc winning captain , but he has lost the form and power game at wrong side of 30s in Ind cricket. Iyer picked the form at right time and at the exact spot.

Iyer in mo batter and Vaibhav is an opener, he can be best utilized and can win games in just pp.

 

Selecting iyer in t20i side is completely fine but making him the captain is completely wrong. They do nt see leadership in existing group can be concerning but that is diff. discussion. There is a diff thread where ppl were making case of dropping sky before the wc and parachute iyer to the wc side as captain, then as well I posted there is no need Iyer has no creds as intnl t20i batter let alone the captain.  

 

There is no double standrads in this. Vaibhav just been on bench for 3 games , he is travelling with full strength Icc wc winning side and its v.normal for newer player to bench. This is nt a a/b level Ind side this is proper ind side (minus bhumrah).

 

No you can not push sanju in mo, just look at the diff of his performance at #1/2 and in the mo, his game is not suited to mo , this is no ipl.

If he is not opening his t20i sr goes below 130 and avg 20 or below. If he plays he opens his avg is 25+ and sr ~180, this is amongst the best he could be 2nd best opener after Abhishek.

 

Iyer didnt come into the side because of PR he was based on IPL performance at the spot where sky was nt performing and he got captaincy because they think no1 in the existng grp is good. Or say a better theory would be they do not want to give captaincy to Hardik. Yes an argument can be made that he is injured most of the times but its a better theory.

 

Vaibhav can only replace Abhishek/Sanju/Kishan , there is nothing to do with Iyer. After Sky the 2 options that were present are Iyer and Patidar for #4 and they went with Iyer.

 

If iyer would have not been selected in the side , there would have been similar thread that they are undermining Iyer. 

 

Vaibhav is on bench for just 3 games since his selection to Ind side , thats nothing. He is in 15 member side in proper full strength T20i side, the wait is expectable 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3 by tapandrun

[BacktoCricaddict]

7 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

Again this is not about Iyer vs Vaibhav. things ppl always get it wrong as it was never Gill vs Sanju.

 

Sky is wc winning captain , but he has lost the form and power game at wrong side of 30s in Ind cricket. Iyer picked the form at right time and at the exact spot.

Iyer in mo batter and Vaibhav is an opener, he can be best utilized and can win games in just pp.

 

Selecting iyer in t20i side is completely fine but making him the captain is completely wrong. They do nt see leadership in existing group can be concerning but that is diff. discussion. There is a diff thread where ppl were making case of dropping sky before the wc and parachute iyer to the wc side as captain, then as well I posted there is no need Iyer has no creds as intnl t20i batter let alone the captain.  

 

There is no double standrads in this. Vaibhav just been on bench for 3 games , he is travelling with full strength Icc wc winning side and its v.normal for newer player to bench. This is nt a a/b level Ind side this is proper ind side (minus bhumrah).

 

No you can not push sanju in mo, just look at the diff of his performance at #1/2 and in the mo, his game is not suited to mo , this is no ipl.

If he is not opening his t20i sr goes below 130 and avg 20 or below. If he plays he opens his avg is 25+ and sr ~180, this is amongst the best he could be 2nd best opener after Abhishek.

 

Iyer did come into the side because of PR he was based on IPL performance at the spot where sky was nt performing and he got captaincy because they think no1 in the existng grp is good. Or say a better theory would be they do not want to give captaincy to Hardik. Yes an argument can be made that he is injured most of the times but its a better theory.

 

Vaibhav can only replace Abhishek/Sanju/Kishan , there is nothing to do with Iyer. After Sky the 2 options that were present are Iyer and Patidar for #4 and they went with Iyer.

 

If iyer would have not been selected in the side , there would have been similar thread that they are undermining Iyer. 

 

Vaibhav is on bench for just 3 games since his selection to Ind side , thats nothing. He is in 15 member side in proper full strength T20i side, the wait is expectable 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

November 1989. First there was a charity one-day match. He sat. Next, there was a practice FC match. He played. Scored 47. First test, He was in. Rest is history. 

 

That's the level of special talentedness we are seeing here. 

 

I understand that India's MO back then was weak and were desperate. But still ... 

[tapandrun]

22 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Completely agree with this. It is not a *deliberate* effort, but an indictment of a risk-free, seniority culture. While this is usual practice, VS is not a usual talent.

 

 

 

Perhaps. But, he brings something special, so much immediate value that some of these unwritten rules need to be thrown out. He is in the form of his life, playing with an uncluttered and brutal innocence in his approach. The time is now - and this is not for *his* benefit. It is for the potential benefit for future team-India in T20s. 

 

Again, if he is selected in playing 11 , then one of Abhishek/Sanju/Kishan would have to rested and if viabhav proves to be the real deal at intnl level , one of them will lose the place in playing 11 for ever and in bad case may be from 15. This is wc winning side -- Sanju got nearly 3 tons back to back in wc most imp. games, kishan has been the revalation to the side (at least for sc and sc like conditions), Abhishek is best t20 player. So if they are to be dropped tm should give them chance to see who is worse amongst the 3 and what helps the team.

 

Does Ind want 3 LH in top3 ?? Dropping sanju or Kishan would mean you will need to keep both of them in 15 as 1 being primary wk and 2nd being secondary wk.

So wo goes out ?? If they say we need kishan in 11 so does that mean sanju goes out and then what the point of sanju is 31 and has been there in Ind crkt system for 10+ years now and he still benches??-- this means he gets dropped and add a new wk.

 

thing is ppl do not undestand you can only pick 15 and most Ind batters are not multi-skilled and can only bat at few slots 

 

 

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 minute ago, tapandrun said:

one of them will lose the place in playing 11 for ever

We don't really know this. They can be in the XV and fight their way back. Find a diiferent role perhaps.  Long term, VS may lose form in a year. Get found out. Must readjust. And they grab their place back.  

 

Such fears cannot drive the process. After all, this is a bilateral series, and a time to make some bold moves with this special talent. 

[tapandrun]

8 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

November 1989. First there was a charity one-day match. He sat. Next, there was a practice FC match. He played. Scored 47. First test, He was in. Rest is history. 

 

That's the level of special talentedness we are seeing here. 

 

I understand that India's MO back then was weak and were desperate. But still ... 

This is no valid point, knew this will come-up in the thread as there is obvious direct comparison.  It is what slot is available or not.

 

Shedge was no where in the inline for Ind side , he was under development tours but they needed some1 for reddy/panday's replacement in the side he made into the 11.

 

Sachin was not replacing any1 from a world champion side , it was a weakish mo and he got a chance, and in Odis he got to open v.late . 

 

[tapandrun]

9 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

We don't really know this. They can be in the XV and fight their way back. Find a diiferent role perhaps.  Long term, VS may lose form in a year. Get found out. Must readjust. And they grab their place back.  

 

Such fears cannot drive the process. After all, this is a bilateral series, and a time to make some bold moves with this special talent. 

This is not fear this is process, a new player has come into the side with lot of potential , with existing player performing and winning wc at the same slot.

 

Ques -- Who would you drop from Abhishek/Sanju/Kishan for Viabhav ???

Edited July 3 by tapandrun

[BacktoCricaddict]

3 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

This is not fear this is process, a new player has come into the side with lot of potential , with existing player performing and winning wc at the same slot.

 

Ques -- Who would you drop from Abhishek/Sanju/Kishan for Viabhav ???

Ideally, I would drop Varma and move SS/IK to MO. For 3 matches. And see how it goes. 

 

Sharma

Sooryavanshi

Samson

Iyer

Kishan

 

[Ultimate_Game]

55 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

 

Jaiswal is not an all format material. Not in T20 anyway. 

 

He would've been a great T20 opener before Sooryavanshi arrived. Now he's no. 3 on the list after Abhishek & Sooryavanshi. Would average in mid 30s with a SR of 160 or thereabouts. If we didn't have a beast in Sooryavanshi waiting in the wings, it would be Jaiswal waiting in the wings.

[BacktoCricaddict]

15 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

This is no valid point, knew this will come-up in the thread as there is obvious direct comparison.  It is what slot is available or not.

 

Shedge was no where in the inline for Ind side , he was under development tours but they needed some1 for reddy/panday's replacement in the side he made into the 11.

 

Sachin was not replacing any1 from a world champion side , it was a weakish mo and he got a chance, and in Odis he got to open v.late . 

 

You make valid points - if VS was a top 10% talent who was inducted into the side after some solid performances. But he is a top 0.01% talent, and has put in unprecedented dominant performances, making a bold choice necessary. 

 

His presence has narrowed the margins of error tremendously for the others. WC win or not.

Edited July 3 by BacktoCricaddict

[tapandrun]

8 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

You make valid points - if VS was a top 10% talent who was inducted into the side after some solid performances. But he is a top 0.01% talent, and has put in unprecedented dominant performances, making a bold choice necessary. 

 

His presence has narrowed the margins of error tremendously for the others. WC win or not.

Every one understands this, thats why still selection to Ind side has been so steep.   He is wc plans.  He is on bench because the others he will replace are also top performers in the recent wc win.

 

Ind has problem of plenty at opening slot in t20s , if Arya has a break-out season he will also be not that far from Ind cap.

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

We used to give opportunities to complete set of new players on these tours. We used to send main team only when we had a full tour with Tests and ODIs.  THis is the first time in a while we are sending the main team who looks burnt out. 

[tapandrun]

16 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Ideally, I would drop Varma and move SS/IK to MO. For 3 matches. And see how it goes. 

 

Sharma

Sooryavanshi

Samson

Iyer

Kishan

 

 

Sure good line-up. but Sanju avg and sr goes down to non t20 player in mo, his sr is ~180 and avg 25+ while opening and in mo his avg is below 20 and sr below 130.

 

Yes only kishan can be moved bt can he be #5 ?? those slots req. lot of power game and ability to hit older ball. Thats the issue most Ind batters do not bowl and are v.rigid to 1 slot. Its either they may it into the side or the just donot, same issue is being faced by jaiswal in odis.

 

 

[tapandrun]

9 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

We used to give opportunities to complete set of new players on these tours. We used to send main team only when we had a full tour with Tests and ODIs.  THis is the first time in a while we are sending the main team who looks burnt out. 

The thing is in the previous sides, most of the players were already playing 2 or more formats now this is v.specific set of t20i players they do not play any other intnl cricket.

 

So its needed them to be in-tune to intnl side and there are v.few time that opp. also slots in near top side, for this reason they are sending full strength Ind side.

 

• Ind t20i side is full of only t20 player they do not play any intnl games outside t20is
• Away tour + Opp. is also playing a good side 
• They added a new captain and want to show he is the captain of Ind side not a a/b level side. This is something they tried with gill as vc.

Is Ind side little burnt-out yes but such opportunity are not that many 

Edited July 3 by tapandrun

[BacktoCricaddict]

5 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

Sure good line-up. but Sanju avg and sr goes down to non t20 player in mo, his sr is ~180 and avg 25+ while opening and in mo his avg is below 20 and sr below 130.

 

Yes only kishan can be moved bt can he be #5 ?? those slots req. lot of power game and ability to hit older ball. Thats the issue most Ind batters do not bowl and are v.rigid to 1 slot. Its either they may it into the side or the just donot, same issue is being faced by jaiswal in odis.

 

 

We ought to find out. Right now, I feel we are sacrificing 75/1 in PP for potential 52/0. Who knows - if VS and AS blow the door off in PP, the others like SS and IK can relax a bit and go for the kill in 17-20. There's many ways to approach this, but I just cannot let go of the feeling that we are wasting opportunities to put the match away in PP.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, tapandrun said:

The thing is in the previous sides, most of the players were already playing 2 or more formats now this is v.specific set of t20i players they do not play any other intnl cricket.

 

So its needed them to be in-tune to intnl side and there are v.few time that opp. also slots in near top side, for this reason they are sending full strength Ind side.

 

• Ind t20i side is full of only t20 player they do not play any intnl games outside t20is
• Away tour + Opp. is also playing a good side 

Is Ind side little burnt-out yes but such opportunity are not that many 

Isn't that what IPL is for?  Besides Kishan does play in ODI format. Why is he with these guys? I don't buy this idea of keep on training till 2028 in every series. Only team that was doing this was Pakistan. Sending Babar azam, Rizwan to netherlands, ireland, scotland tours. We should  give breaks to players. Break is not a bad thing. It is actually a good thing. They already achieved pinnacle. They probably won't have the same hunger in the much lower intensity contests. India should use this as an opportunity to groom an alternative line up. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Break is not a bad thing. It is actually a good thing. They already achieved pinnacle.

This.

 

My hypothesis: Giving SS a break before the last 3 WC matches was the reason he killed it in those matches. 

[tapandrun]

2 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

We ought to find out. Right now, I feel we are sacrificing 75/1 in PP for potential 52/0. Who knows - if VS and AS blow the door off in PP, the others like SS and IK can relax a bit and go for the kill in 17-20. There's many ways to approach this, but I just cannot let go of the feeling that we are wasting opportunities to put the match away in PP.

Its been just 3 games he will get the chances and play wc for sure, next t20i wc is in Aus+Nz , you will need diff kind of batters for those pitches and conditions.

 

Nz offers spongs bounce with lateral movement due to open arena ground, Aus is fast and bouncy + bigger grounds.

 

So Ind will need tallish batters with ability to hit big 6s, do not see any one in current side being able to hit 4s along the ground and wait for 1 bad ball to hit for 6.

 

it will req. batters with some technique+ fast bat speed+ tallish to counter bounce ball after ball + big hitting 

[BacktoCricaddict]

8 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Its been just 3 games he will get the chances and play wc for sure, next t20i wc is in Aus+Nz , you will need diff kind of batters for those pitches and conditions.

 

Nz offers spongs bounce with lateral movement due to open arena ground, Aus is fast and bouncy + bigger grounds.

 

So Ind will need tallish batters with ability to hit big 6s, do not see any one in current side being able to hit 4s along the ground and wait for 1 bad ball to hit for 6.

 

it will req. batters with some technique+ fast bat speed+ tallish to counter bounce ball after ball + big hitting 

 

OK. Then I hope SS' wife is going to have a baby in the next week or so, and he has to fly back home for the joyous occasion :-). 

 

Edited July 3 by BacktoCricaddict

[tapandrun]

16 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Isn't that what IPL is for?  Besides Kishan does play in ODI format. Why is he with these guys? I don't buy this idea of keep on training till 2028 in every series. Only team that was doing this was Pakistan. Sending Babar azam, Rizwan to netherlands, ireland, scotland tours. We should  give breaks to players. Break is not a bad thing. It is actually a good thing. They already achieved pinnacle. They probably won't have the same hunger in the much lower intensity contests. India should use this as an opportunity to groom an alternative line up. 

 

No, ipl is held once in a yr. and do not compare icc events to ipl. Kishan is odi side as back-up how many odis has he played ?? he needs game time at intnl level.

 

Yes they do not need to play each game each series but this is a good opportunity to play is Nz like conditions for the team. 

 

Pak was diff. case -- They had multiple players if not all playing all 3 formats and still they wanted to play a b/c/d level opp with full pak team strength. All their players were getting intnl games but still they were playing all the games.

 

In Ind case apart from iyer all the other batter are just t20i players they do not play any-other format. 

 

If they would not have played there would have been a diff case made why they are not playing in eng where conditions could be same as nz.

 

Amongst --> Sanju/Kishan/Axar/ Iyer/Dube donot think they have played any games in such conditions, think for kishan its his 1st sena tour. All need game time in non sc condition , even to make assessment if they are any good in those conditions or not. 

 

 

[BCCISelector]

VS will make his debut in this month, either in England or in Zimbabwe. Many of you are too impatient. He has at least 20-25 years of cricket left in him. 

Abhishek and Ishan are the top two T20I batters in the world. Samson played three back-to-back clutch knocks in WC knockouts. Dropping any of them without giving them the security of their spot is unfair.

You guys criticised the team management for dropping Samson after 1 or 2 bad series last year. Now you are criticising for not dropping him with the hindsight of his failures in 3 games... You can't have it both ways.