'87 per cent in Kashmir want Independence'

[CC1981]

CC if majority of Hindus decided to make India officially a Hindu nation and boot out muslims then would you agree as well? J&K as a complete state has ROP majority (60% roughly) so in a referendum the whole state would be gifted away! There is no way Ladakh or Jammu should be part of any nation other than India. As for Kashmir it's staying with India as well. Anyone who does not like it can pack their bags and move to Chinese occupied Kashmir :finger: I did not read the discussion between you and KR fully but I saw EU being mentioned. EU citizens don't give a f@k about EU. I know because I am one.

I don't see how or why this 'hindu nation' analogy is valid. We are a liberal democracy and i support liberal democracies. As such, secularism is the manna of liberal democracies. However, as i said, if an ethnicity (for eg. Kashmiris) want independence from the nation, not giving it to them is despotism and only makes the situation worse. Besides, as i said, even with Kashmir's ROP majority, they'd struggle to get 3/4th majority to vote for independence throughout Kashmir.

[CC1981]

The way I look at it is simple. If my mum was ill and her treatment bled me dry then so be it. I won't throw her out just to cut my losses.

Sentimentalism in the face of logic doesnt really work in a societerial perspective. If you don't want Kashmir to go from India, maybe you the KP should spend some efforts trying to sway the other Kashmiris to the goal. This poll reflects my personal experience as well with Kashmiris (including KPs)- most i've come across want kashmir to be independent, not part of either Pakistan or India and with good reason. Both nations have seen Kashmir as 'property' and not a land where its people's wishes count for much.

[Gaurav]

I don't see how or why this 'hindu nation' analogy is valid.

Look CC it's valid because you are willing in the name of secularism to let an anti-secular ideology break India...but on the other hand you cry wolf if a much more secular ideology like Hinduism uses the majority method (3/4th whatever) to create a Hindu rashtra.

Sentimentalism in the face of logic doesnt really work in a societerial perspective.

I was just making a point for Lurker. Btw what do you think Kasmiri muslim ka breakaway movement is based on? Science? It's based on sentimentalism of Islam!

If you don't want Kashmir to go from India, maybe you the KP should spend some efforts trying to sway the other Kashmiris to the goal.

What by getting killed in Kashmir? There is nothing I can say to a muslim Kashmiri that will make them think otherwise. I am doing my bit by directly helping Indian army. How is that for "na rahiga banse na bajege bansure" method?

This poll reflects my personal experience as well with Kashmiris (including KPs)- most i've come across want kashmir to be independent, not part of either Pakistan or India and with good reason. Both nations have seen Kashmir as 'property' and not a land where its people's wishes count for much.

With your Google track record I will take that KP info with a pinch of salt :D I have not come across one single KP who wanted to break away from India. I can safely assume that I have met hundred times more KPs than you. A KP will rightfully moan about Indian politicians but they DON'T want to break away from India. The closest thing to what you are trying to say when it comes to KPs is "Panun Kashmir" idea. Panun= Our (Kashmir) Even that has absolutely nothing to do with breaking away from India :finger:

[Guest dada_rocks]

Look CC it's valid because you are willing in the name of secularism to let an anti-secular ideology break India...but on the other hand you cry wolf if a much more secular ideology like Hinduism uses the majority method (3/4th whatever) to create a Hindu rashtra. I was just making a point for Lurker. Btw what do you think Kasmiri muslim ka breakaway movement is based on? Science? It's based on sentimentalism of Islam! What by getting killed in Kashmir? There is nothing I can say to a muslim Kashmiri that will make them think otherwise. I am doing my bit by directly helping Indian army. How is that for "na rahiga banse na bajege bansure" method? With your Google track record I will take that KP info with a pinch of salt :D I have not come across one single KP who wanted to break away from India. I can safely assume that I have met hundred times more KPs than you. A KP will rightfully moan about Indian politicians but they DON'T want to break away from India. The closest thing to what you are trying to say when it comes to KPs is "Panun Kashmir" idea. Panun= Our (Kashmir) Even that has absolutely nothing to do with breaking away from India :finger:

people exhort me to let this guy spew drivel but I can't help it.. even this poll he has not bothered to read and busy with my personal expereince crap.. Jammu region resoundingly says yes in same poll to indian union so does laddakh but he will lull himself into thinking that somehow that's incorrect.. whatever makes u feel good about ur arcane theories :haha:

[CC1981]

Look CC it's valid because you are willing in the name of secularism to let an anti-secular ideology break India

Anti-secular ideology ? There is nothing anti-secular about an ethnic group wanting independence. It is infact secular because it recognizes the rights of the people.

but on the other hand you cry wolf if a much more secular ideology like Hinduism uses the majority method (3/4th whatever) to create a Hindu rashtra.

Because independence of an ethnic community is a secular concept. Religious nationalism is not however.

Btw what do you think Kasmiri muslim ka breakaway movement is based on? Science? It's based on sentimentalism of Islam!

How do you explain the KPs then who want independence ? there are many KPs too who don't wanna be part of india either.

I have not come across one single KP who wanted to break away from India.

Some of the authors in BBC who propose independence for Kashmir are KPs... There are KPs- minority or not- who want to be seperate from India too. Your failure to acknowledge them is from you reducing it to a religious issue when essentially independence of kashmir is not a religious issue only. Ie, a paranoid tactic of most KPs to deny the truth.

[Gaurav]

How do you explain the KPs then who want independence ? there are many KPs too who don't wanna be part of india either.

There are some Indians who hate India but that does not mean that most Indians hate India. If there are some KPs lke that then so be it but I speak for 99% of the KPs. Who are these BBC KP writers you are talking about? Give me names. KPs in UK are pro India without a doubt...I know because I attend their functions and meetings. Why would KPs want to live in an independent muslim Kashmir? Having been driven out once was not enough? You lack of logic is...

Your failure to acknowledge them is from you reducing it to a religious issue when essentially independence of kashmir is not a religious issue only. Ie, a paranoid tactic of most KPs to deny the truth

Kashmir is a religious issue PERIOD! Your attempt to pass it as some sort of ethnic issue is laughable. If you are saying it is a religious issue but compounded by politics then it still does not take it away from being a predominantly religious issue. Do you see any non muslim militants there? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4416771.stm Paranoid tactics of KPs? Dude you are loosing it! Yes CC you are right about every thing that you have typed. I give up man.

[CC1981]

There are some Indians who hate India but that does not mean that most Indians hate India. If there are some KPs lke that then so be it but I speak for 99% of the KPs.

Arrey baba, i am NOT saying that KPs all want independence. Or that Kashmir should be independent. ALL i am saying is that IF Kashmiris wanted independence ( which if you f*cking pay attention and READ, i've mentioned including ALL KPs too), then they should have it. How the f*ck does that relate to your contention whether or not they want independence, when i am saying that IF they want, they should get it ? I am talking of keeping that option on the table SHOULD KASHMIRIS WANT IT. Thats the bottomline of my contention- which is a democratic standpoint, not an imperialistic one,unlike your's.

If you are saying it is a religious issue but compounded by politics then it still does not take it away from being a predominantly religious issue.

What i am saying is that it is an ethnic issue compounded by religion, not a religious issue to begin with. The maharaja of Kashmir (before he was forced by circumstances to join India) had already mentioned that his people (the kashmiris) wanted to stay independent.

[Guest dada_rocks]

No they do not count ...............

[Guest dada_rocks]

There are some Indians who hate India but that does not mean that most Indians hate India. If there are some KPs lke that then so be it but I speak for 99% of the KPs. Who are these BBC KP writers you are talking about? Give me names. KPs in UK are pro India without a doubt...I know because I attend their functions and meetings. Why would KPs want to live in an independent muslim Kashmir? Having been driven out once was not enough? You lack of logic is... Kashmir is a religious issue PERIOD! Your attempt to pass it as some sort of ethnic issue is laughable. If you are saying it is a religious issue but compounded by politics then it still does not take it away from being a predominantly religious issue. Do you see any non muslim militants there? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4416771.stm Paranoid tactics of KPs? Dude you are loosing it! Yes CC you are right about every thing that you have typed. I give up man.

U don't understand his anecdotal evidence trumps every statistical database in the world and thou must not question that..

[CC1981]

U don't understand his anecdotal evidence trumps every statistical database in the world and thou must not question that..

And you do not understand English. I am NOT saying that Kashmir wants independence- i am saying that IF Kashmir wants independence, they should have it.

[Guest dada_rocks]

BTW BB is it possible to edit the inherent misinformation in the thread title.. 87% ins srinagar that's the real number of the poll.. a separatists or a pakistani site indulgign in this kind of capaign is understandable but we an idnian portal sud not give voice to misinformation campaign..

[kumble_rocks]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6947968.stm For the few here who staunchly believe there was little local support to extremism in K ..

But surely , you can't ignore the fact that the support for another Muslim country Pakistan is also minimal in Kashmir. So , how do you explain that because you guys want us to believe that Ummah is bigger than nation and you may be probably right. But I support your concerns about KP's. First get all the KP's back to their homeland, then and only then , can we even have a true mandate. Otherwise, the quagmire will continue.

[Guest dada_rocks]

And you do not understand English. I am NOT saying that Kashmir wants independence- i am saying that IF Kashmir wants independence' date=' they should have it.[/quote'] Na unlike u I am not in the business of claiming knowldeg which I can't back up.. Your most recent screw-up is claim of panditry and at the same time utter lack of knowledge of devbhasa sanskrit , then ur cluelessness about the history of independence movement where u confuse plebiscite by election and vice-versa.. besides here POLL data is being debated where there is no room for ur if/ but jugglery..

[Guest dada_rocks]

But surely ' date=' you can't ignore the fact that the support for another Muslim country Pakistan is also minimal in Kashmir. So , how do you explain that because you guys want us to believe that Ummah is bigger than nation and you may be probably right. But I support your concerns about KP's. First get all the KP's back to their homeland, then and only then , can we even have a true mandate. Otherwise, the quagmire will continue.[/quote'] Last nite was watching a joint Indo/Pak Tv show where cabinet minister ( former general) of pakistan himself accepted he had training schools for mujaheeden.. I don't know where from u got the idea that Pakistan's presence/indulgence was/is minimal in kashmir.

[kumble_rocks]

How does it matter KR ? Whether they support another Muslim country or a commie country ... ? Fact is they are no longer part of the Indian psyche ... and they are well on their way to create a new Muslim country as per the tried and tested formula i.e once the gain majority ... seperatism is a inevitablity. And about KPs and them returning ... make no mistake that the terms of their return are that they(the KPs) live in a Muslim state and abide by Sharia ... the KPs will never agree to that ... (once bitten twice shy and all that) ... so lets not get orgasmic about it.

That's why I support Mass migration of all Indians into the Valley.And yes, we cannot have Sharia in Kashmir. This is one point I can agree on with you because I do frugally browse through Muslim websites like Pakpassion and the support for Sharia (not the Saudi kind ) is relatively high among these individuals. They feel that Sharia encompass minority rights just like the Prophet would want to. So I wont be surprised if Kashmiris want Sharia , but like I said , Muslims feel that Sharia does support minority rights which I tend to disagree.

[kumble_rocks]

Last nite was watching a joint Indo/Pak Tv show where cabinet minister ( former general) of pakistan himself accepted he had training schools for mujaheeden.. I don't know where from u got the idea that Pakistan's presence/indulgence was/is minimal in kashmir.

What part of my post makes you think that I have presented an idea that Pakistan's presence/indulgence was/is minimal in kashmir ? Kashmir is of great strategical importance to Pakistan be it water, religion or region (proximity to China) . They will never let go of their dream to separate Kashmir from Indian Union.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Their definition of minority rights: If they are letting u live with ur indoor religious activity ( should not be much conspicuus) wihtou much stake in mainstream admionistaration or security in essence a dhimmi-status then they pat themselves on back. Most socalled tolerant state is malaysia in their world with 60:40 equation and even there we all know what passes in name of human rights. With this kind of track recod I wud not be surprised if no non-muslim group if given the choice wants to live under shariah..

[Guest dada_rocks]

What part of my post makes you think that I have presented an idea that Pakistan's presence/indulgence was/is minimal in kashmir ? Kashmir is of great strategical importance to Pakistan be it water, religion or region (proximity to China) . They will never let go of their dream to separate Kashmir from Indian Union.

I guess I misread the poitn of their lack of support to pakistan as pakistan's lack of support to this movement, in my defence have too many tabs open.. BTW in that show India sent General Chaudhary and first time I saw some military hihg ranking official so defeicient in spoken english.. Although he put forward some very pertinent points like: we are talking about kashmir here and I don't see even single Pandit or laddakhi buddhist on the dais.. Shabana Azmi came up with jewel when they broached up Gujarat while glating how muslims are not safe in india. Her word well even we indian can say throwing what transpired in east pakistan in 71 and claim concept of nation based on religion is a flawed one. Audience was stunned into silence.

[Lurker]

Shabana Azmi came up with jewel when they broached up Gujarat while glating how muslims are not safe in india. Her word well even we indian can say throwing what transpired in east pakistan in 71 and claim concept of nation based on religion is a flawed one. Audience was stunned into silence.

Go Shabana Azami..Woohoo! :two_thumbs_up::two_thumbs_up:

[CC1981]

besides here POLL data is being debated where there is no room for ur if/ but jugglery..

Ofcourse there is room for my comment because my comment is NOT related to this poll data. I repeat ( and if you can comprehend it, do so) : IF and when Kashmiris- including KPs that have been displaced, get together and vote for independence, then they should get it. Is that simple enough english for your village mind ?