Aniruddha Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Yup KT I understand where you're coming from but the way I see it - playing or not playing does not affect any issues you are speaking about. absolutely right....but its about the imotions, the sentiments and protest. one of my close friend's dad got expired in 26/11 attacks....and I'm not going to watch any of the match of these Link to comment
BeautifulGame Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Can those who oppose this series clarify me this? Did u guys reject all the previous tours and series with Pak in the past as well or only this series after the 26/11? Link to comment
munafbhai Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 So, it's now official. Pakistan cricket team will tour India beginning Christmas Day this year to play three one-day international and two T20 matches in five Indian cities. When our venerated Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) first mooted it in July this year, I, like hundreds of others in this city, had reacted with a measure of disbelief and hoped that the series would not come to pass. Now we have the tour itinerary. As an avid cricket fan, I should have been thrilled at the prospect of watching the matches. I am not. As a Mumbaiite, I feel let down by the idea that the boys-in-blue will play boys-in-green somewhere in my country with nary a thought to a wound that has festered since my city was attacked nearly four years ago. That Pakistani venture - state, non-state, whatever - took 166 lives, among them some of this city's bravest police officers. Their families still suffer. Their wounds are still raw, they haven't been able to "move on", many of them believe that Indian government must find ways to "get even" with Pakistan. My wounds are raw too. None of us are likely to go and dig up pitches or pour oil on pitches to prevent the matches but as the Ombale family said: "we are pained, but what can we do?" Cricketing ties between the countries have been complicated and carry the burden of a difficult past; they are necessarily a sub-text in our multi-layered and complex bi-lateral relations. But one need not be an international policy wonk or a geo-political analyst to have an opinion on the impending series. Simply put, it's a thenga, in Bombaiyya language, to all those of us in Mumbai waiting for justice - and closure - in the 26/11 terror attack case. The BCCI and the Indian government seems to say: it doesn't matter much that the Pakistani establishment has steadfastly refused to cooperate in the investigation or take sufficient action against the 26/11 attack masterminds, let's host their cricketers on our soil and treat them with famous Indian hospitality. The World Cup semi-final last year was part of a tournament; it had to be played. But a bi-lateral series in India smacks of rank insensitivity to the Mumbaiite's mood towards Pakistan and its cricketers. For many of us, there's a sense of betrayal, a perception that our wounds don't matter, a feeling that revenues from these cricket matches - to the Boards, sponsors, whoever else - carry more currency than our need for justice in the 26/11 attack. This government would have earned some admirers - and perhaps a few votes in 2014 - if it had linked the resumption of cricketing ties to demonstrated Pakistani action on the terror masterminds. Suspending cricket ties with Pakistan was linked to the terror attack, not by us here in Mumbai, but by our central government. What has happened since to resume them? Of course, there are the usual arguments for and against playing cricket with Pakistan again, but none of them explain why a government that seemed to honour the Mumbaiite's mind-set then decided it's no longer worth it. Is it small mercy that the itinerary doesn't include the city? I, for one, won't be watching. The BCCI and the Indian government seems to say: it doesn't matter much that the Pakistani establishment has steadfastly refused to cooperate in the investigation or take sufficient action against the 26/11 attack masterminds, let's host their cricketers on our soil and treat them with famous Indian hospitality. The World Cup semi-final last year was part of a tournament; it had to be played. But a bi-lateral series in India smacks of rank insensitivity to the Mumbaiite's mood towards Pakistan and its cricketers. For many of us, there's a sense of betrayal, a perception that our wounds don't matter, a feeling that revenues from these cricket matches - to the Boards, sponsors, whoever else - carry more currency than our need for justice in the 26/11 attack. This government would have earned some admirers - and perhaps a few votes in 2014 - if it had linked the resumption of cricketing ties to demonstrated Pakistani action on the terror masterminds. Suspending cricket ties with Pakistan was linked to the terror attack, not by us here in Mumbai, but by our central government. What has happened since to resume them? Of course, there are the usual arguments for and against playing cricket with Pakistan again, but none of them explain why a government that seemed to honour the Mumbaiite's mind-set then decided it's no longer worth it. Is it small mercy that the itinerary doesn't doesn't include the city? I, for one, won't be watching. http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/ColumnsOthers/Have-we-forgotten-the-26-11-terror-attack/Article1-952507 Govt is insensitive and so is BCCI. To rub salt in wounds on victims killed on 26/11 maybe BCCI should have arranged for a match on 26/11 instead Link to comment
King Tendulkar Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Can those who oppose this series clarify me this? Did u guys reject all the previous tours and series with Pak in the past as well or only this series after the 26/11? Always. 26/11 was not the start but one of the latest. This killing of innocent indians in state sponsored terrorism has been going on for decades. Look at 1993 attcks on mumbai were over 250 were killed. Man responsible is dawood ibrahim who is living like a hero with vip status in pak. So many attacks, 2008 attacks were just a more recent one. Also still no jutice for the indians murdered in 2008 attcks with hafeez sayed living vip hero status in pak. So even if new to this and only aware of latest attack, still nasty and still no justice. How the hell can we play them in cricket or mix anything with them from actors to businnes when the pak govt/army/intellegence agencies and pak people promote these attacks and then protect the murderers. No wonder they never change when we cave in so quickly, willing to forget our murdered people. Link to comment
munafbhai Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Can those who oppose this series clarify me this? Did u guys reject all the previous tours and series with Pak in the past as well or only this series after the 26/11? A person learns to rectify his mistakes only after the hand is burnt. In my case luckily no relative died but many of my friends board trains from CST in the 8pm to 10 pm range when they leave work. Once upon a time I did too along with my brother in law till we went for jobs on different location. What if we were there on 26/11. What if my friends were there? Would the thought of an India - Pak match still excite or would it hurt like a million pins piercing the heart. Be empathic to those killed in 26/11 . Despite having so much proof, Pakistan says there is no evidence. Hafiz Syed roams around like VIP freely in Pakistan. Name any Indias enemies and they are teated with royalty in Pakistan and given safe haven. And what do we do ? Help them finacially by agreeing to play with them ? Link to comment
King Tendulkar Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Yup KT I understand where you're coming from but the way I see it - playing or not playing does not affect any issues you are speaking about. May not effect. But its called having priniciples. Frankly if our govt was serious on this issue. We would cut all ties with them and not bend at all till they stop the attacks and sort out justice against the murderes. You never know such a stand may have an effect and reduce their desire to take the mickey and carry out these attacks while pretending nothing is happening Link to comment
Aniruddha Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Can those who oppose this series clarify me this? Did u guys reject all the previous tours and series with Pak in the past as well or only this series after the 26/11? honestly, have enjoyed all the Indo-Pak matches but somewhere somehow we need to start , to change. Better late than never!!! Link to comment
umairbaig Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 well boycotting one particular sport isn't justified as i see it, since the mumbai attacks indians have played like hockey,kabbadi etc and what not... If indians/mumbaikar's are hurt they should stop all bi-lateral ties with pakistan, otherwise what's the point of not playing cricket and relaxing trade laws and visas??? seems irrational to me Link to comment
Number Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 This series does not excite me at all. If it was a test series I would have been well up for it. Ind-Pak ODIs are more interesting than Tests on Ind-Pak pitches usually. Link to comment
The Outsider Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 well boycotting one particular sport isn't justified as i see it, since the mumbai attacks indians have played like hockey,kabbadi etc and what not... If indians/mumbaikar's are hurt they should stop all bi-lateral ties with pakistan, otherwise what's the point of not playing cricket and relaxing trade laws and visas??? seems irrational to me Completely agree. Either all diplomatic ties with Pakistan (inclusive and exclusive sports) with Pakistan should be cut off, or everything in the public eye should go on as usual while issues are resolved behind the scenes. I don't know which is the right path, but given that India has already tried the second option with varying degrees of success I would prefer a complete cut off with Pakistan with regards to anything whatsoever. If that's not possible, there should be an effort to make people realize how close they are fundamentally. I don't see anything remotely close to the above happening in my lifetime, so I am contended with the occasional rant from cricket fans whenever there is a series after a terrorist attack. Link to comment
Crookbond Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 May not effect. But its called having priniciples. Frankly if our govt was serious on this issue. We would cut all ties with them and not bend at all till they stop the attacks and sort out justice against the murderes. You never know such a stand may have an effect and reduce their desire to take the mickey and carry out these attacks while pretending nothing is happening If that would have worked and it was beneficial for us, we would have done it. Can you show hot that will help? It will just exacerbate the current situation. Link to comment
Sean Bradley Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 :clap: Indian govt. playing a wait and forget game with everyone.. Link to comment
King Tendulkar Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 If that would have worked and it was beneficial for us' date=' we would have done it. Can you show hot that will help? It will just exacerbate the current situation.[/quote'] Exacerbate!!! Cant get any worse, they are taking the mickey out of us cos they know we are weak and forget quick. It will help the victims and there families to know we are pursuing justice for their dead and not forgeting and just moving on. How quickly indians forget their murdered innocent people. It will also be a prinicipled stand, I am aware that principles dont usally mean much in India but hey lets start here. Also it will show the paks we have zero tolerance to terrorism and will not bend until they stop it. You never know, do this and in time it may make paks think terrosim is simply not worth it and exacerbates the situation for them. At them moment they know they can kill at will and know we wil just forget in due course and not really be bothered about it. Link to comment
Crookbond Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Exacerbate!!! Cant get any worse, they are taking the mickey out of us cos they know we are weak and forget quick. It will help the victims and there families to know we are pursuing justice for their dead and not forgeting and just moving on. How quickly indians forget their murdered innocent people. It will also be a prinicipled stand, I am aware that principles dont usally mean much in India but hey lets start here. Also it will show the paks we have zero tolerance to terrorism and will not bend until they stop it. You never know, do this and in time it may make paks think terrosim is simply not worth it and exacerbates the situation for them. At them moment they know they can kill at will and know we wil just forget in due course and not really be bothered about it. You are confusing with two things and it has been discussed at length on this forum as well. The solution you are proposing does not help the victim's family. I have been a victim of multiple such terror attacks and it does no good to me by telling me that we are cutting off ties. Because cutting off ties does not guarantee that the next terror attack would not happen and my family members would be sage. Both these events are mutually exclusive and the sooner you understand the better it is. Your solution is a short sighted one aimed at pacifying rather than one which provides high probabilistic guarantees. For example, when US was attacked by Al Qaeda it did not cut off all bilateral trade with countries that hosted Al Qaeda; neither did it stopped playing sport against those countries. It has still been effective in mitigating all terror threats. Link to comment
Sachin=GOD Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Some people are in favor of this series while others are against it so there's one thing that can be done - promise the Pakistani team that we would also provide them with "Presidential" security and then lets see how many of them come :idea: Link to comment
King Tendulkar Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 You are confusing with two things and it has been discussed at length on this forum as well. The solution you are proposing does not help the victim's family. I have been a victim of multiple such terror attacks and it does no good to me by telling me that we are cutting off ties. Because cutting off ties does not guarantee that the next terror attack would not happen and my family members would be sage. Both these events are mutually exclusive and the sooner you understand the better it is. Your solution is a short sighted one aimed at pacifying rather than one which provides high probabilistic guarantees. For example, when US was attacked by Al Qaeda it did not cut off all bilateral trade with countries that hosted Al Qaeda; neither did it stopped playing sport against those countries. It has still been effective in mitigating all terror threats. Well thats your family. Other families want justice. They want the murderes arrested, they want them locked up and serving punishment. Instead paks give these murders of indians immnumity, hero status and vip treatment. The fact is we just forget and move on. When pak govt and its people help, support and give safe haven to indian killers its something I cant tolerate. Yes we cant go to war and attack them. But we can at least cut links with them until they stop this. They will not take it seriously when we are so quick to forget and ready to kiss and make up. The victims want justice. Not lets forget and move on Link to comment
Crookbond Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Well thats your family. Other families want justice. They want the murderes arrested' date= they want them locked up and serving punishment. Instead paks give these murders of indians immnumity, hero status and vip treatment. The fact is we just forget and move on. When pak govt and its people help, support and give safe haven to indian killers its something I cant tolerate. Yes we cant go to war and attack them. But we can at least cut links with them until they stop this. They will not take it seriously when we are so quick to forget and ready to kiss and make up. The victims want justice. Not lets forget and move on That is exactly - what me my family and the other families want. However, cutting of ties does not help in getting the highlighted; you are just mixing up two issues. Link to comment
Sean Bradley Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 That is exactly - what me my family and the other families want. However' date=' cutting of ties does not help in getting the highlighted; you are just mixing up two issues.[/quote'] Cutting of cricketing ties may not be the immediate solution, but it sure gives a domino effect to pakis, small economy, less foreign investment via cricket, and above all, no funding of any sorts, why should they earn from our economy, IPL? When i go out to watch an IPL game, invariably a share of my ticket is going to pakistan, and i am against that. Link to comment
Crookbond Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Cutting of cricketing ties may not be the immediate solution' date=' but it sure gives a domino effect to pakis, small economy, less foreign investment via cricket, and above all, no funding of any sorts, why should they earn from our economy, IPL? When i go out to watch an IPL game, invariably a share of my ticket is going to pakistan, and i am against that.[/quote'] It is not even a solution; it is just hope because you are still keeping the ball in Pakistan's court. There is no evidence to believe anything of that sort will happen. Good luck with that! It is an illusion which the politicians want you to believe and we fall for it. The only way to provide a high probabilistic guarantee on not having a terror attack is to improve defense - better security, better intelligence. Currently, we engage in such 'patches' and please our minds & that's the only thing it will do. As always, we ignore process and this is the reason we deserve sh!t and we will continue to get it. I already gave you the example of US - it engaged in ties BUT raised their guard. They have shown there is way but we want 'jugaad' not a permanent solution. Link to comment
King Tendulkar Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 That is exactly - what me my family and the other families want. However' date=' cutting of ties does not help in getting the highlighted; you are just mixing up two issues.[/quote'] Why are the murders being brought to justice in pak? When killers of innocent indians like Dawwod and Hafeez are in pak being given vip and hero status by the establishmant in pak then we must cut of ties with them until the pak establishemnt take action. Cutting of ties puts pressure on them and makes them realise we have zero tolerance to terrorism. It may not work. However, the lets cut of ties for a year, then forgot and make up is simply failing and not working. The last few decades are ample proof, as not only has justice not been done for the victims but acts of terrorism have continued and continues. Plus its a point of prinicple. What you are saying is like not arresting and prosecuting rapists, as rapes still happen!!! Bizzare logic ps cutting of ties eventullay worked against aparthied SA Link to comment
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