A chilling recount of the 1984 riots

[Lurker]

Congress should not have won after the riots. It's sad that people still voted for Congress' date= showing political parties exactly what they can all easily get away with. Sympathy should never be a criteria for voting, but in India, it is. Similarly, most other parameters are just wrong. The fact that Congress won the elections in spite of the fresh riots shows how idiotic our voters are.

Who should have won then? Forward Bloc?? Not trying to be sarcastic here but which other political party should have won is the question. Looks like the suggestion here is vote out Congress. Fair enough. And vote who exactly in?? Jan Sangh had 20-30 seats in 1980 LS election when Congress had 300 plus. And JS was the largest opposition. Should India have voted JS all of a sudden for no reason?? This whole line - Congress should not have won - is flawed and generally used by Sikh extremist to suggest Hindus had hated Sikhs. Not saying you are insinuating that, but it is weird to see that comment gaining traction.

[Ultimate_Game]

Nothing will change. Tytler, Bhagat and Sajjan Kumar and their cronies will never be prosecuted as majority of Indians think the way poster "Rohit S. Ambani" does here.

[rahulrulezz]

I totally agree that Tytler and all those ch00t1as should be hanged and ashamed...but what about those Sikhs who mercilessly killed Hindus in Punjab and at border of Haryana... My family gave shelter and financial help to couple of Hindu familes who moved from Punjab leaving all their money and houses jsut to excape the wrath..... Sad thing is 'Bhinderwala' and his croonies are prayed and regarded as saints in Gurudwara ... From a guy who didn't the difference betweeen a gurudwara and temple in India, I have taken a vow to never visiting a gurudwara cuz of that @ssh0les picture lying in the darbar...

[Lurker]

I totally agree that Tytler and all those ch00t1as should be hanged and ashamed...but what about those Sikhs who mercilessly killed Hindus in Punjab and at border of Haryana... My family gave shelter and financial help to couple of Hindu familes who moved from Punjab leaving all their money and houses jsut to excape the wrath..... Sad thing is 'Bhinderwala' and his croonies are prayed and regarded as saints in Gurudwara ... From a guy who didn't the difference a gurudwara and temple in India' date= I have taken a vow now to ever visit a gurudwara cuz of that @ssh0les picture lying in the darbar...

Dont let incidents like that, in India or abroad, change you to that extent. That said, your crux is not incorrect. Yes hindsight everything looks rosy but the fact is that Sikh extremism in late 70s and early 80s was the worst terrorism of its kind in Indian history, perhaps matched only by Bombay blasts. Even Kashmir extremism was not so bad. What has baffled me personally is that simple acceptance by Sikh experts which could have gone a long way in soothing the rest of the nation. I am not going to go into details, one can dig up information on the web. Killing of Indira Gandhi is the turning point in Indian history. You may not like her for a variety of reasons, but she was a tigress who defended India as a nation better than any other PM in Indian history, including her father Nehru. And tons better than Vajpayee. Had she been around Pakistan would have never ended up doing as much nonsense in Indian matters as it eventually did. Indian Armed Forced would have divided Pakistan again, she would have ensured that.

[Crookbond]

That' date=' unfortunately, shows the mindset of Indian citizens in general. My statement will not be accepted well, but Indian citizens have some serious issues. 1984 is not the only travesty that was not only easily digested by the citizens of this country, but was subsequently supported and justified by the voters. [b']The callousness, the stubbornness, the lack of sympathy and the general attitude of offense towards anyone outside a community is scary and shows why we struggle to progress as a nation.

You can see manifestations of this ideology in our forum itself - rules for others, exception for oneself.

[Muloghonto]

My post is proved correct, Sikhs are indeed raising issues in ENG/CA/USA/OZ. Now can you say my post was c h e w t i y a ? Read Dexter Morgan's post, they are maligning India and Hinduism abroad. Jai Sri Ram.

I salute the likes of Dexter Morgan, who has the integrity to call a spade a spade, instead of the chewteagiri of putting national and religious pride above all and sweeping all the ugly things under the carpet instead of putting focus on it so that it can be solved. If Hindus are embarassed about the 1983 riots, they should be. I come from a hindu family and i am bloody embarrassed about the barbarity of hindus which casts a bad light on hinduism.

[Muloghonto]

Dont let incidents like that, in India or abroad, change you to that extent. That said, your crux is not incorrect. Yes hindsight everything looks rosy but the fact is that Sikh extremism in late 70s and early 80s was the worst terrorism of its kind in Indian history, perhaps matched only by Bombay blasts. Even Kashmir extremism was not so bad. What has baffled me personally is that simple acceptance by Sikh experts which could have gone a long way in soothing the rest of the nation. I am not going to go into details, one can dig up information on the web. Killing of Indira Gandhi is the turning point in Indian history. You may not like her for a variety of reasons, but she was a tigress who defended India as a nation better than any other PM in Indian history, including her father Nehru. And tons better than Vajpayee. Had she been around Pakistan would have never ended up doing as much nonsense in Indian matters as it eventually did. Indian Armed Forced would have divided Pakistan again, she would have ensured that.

I used to think that before my Army uncle convinced me otherwise. If you look at 1971 and what India could've gotten, it makes a sorry case for 'Indira the lioness of India'. For one, the Indian army wanted to take over Thakurgaon and Panchgarh districts from Bangladesh and my uncle assures me that had India put forth this as a 'must comply' agenda to the Mukti Bahini, we had a good chance of getting those two districts: as it happens both these districts are between 40-45% hindu. Why do we want this district so bad ? so that we could fatten the chicken's neck. Negotiations were underway, where we'd cede sundarban land to them in exchange for Thakurgaon and Panchgarh and even allow a joint Bangladeshi commision to control the Farakka Barrage (their main sticking point against us). But no, Mrs Gandhi shot down that plan instantly. For two, we captured 90,000 Pakis and over 5000 sq kms of land in Pakiland. What did we do ? we gave it all back on conditions of 'good behaviour'. We could've crushed the Paki army's logistics and intelligensia by torturing those 90,000 enemy combatants to get vital information about their military. We could've kept the 5000 sq kms of land we gained in Sindh and told the Pakis 'tough beans'. We could've made the release of 90,000 Pakis contingent on Pakiland giving up half of Bagh district in Azad Kashmir, so that the road from Poonch to Uri were in Indian territorry. Or demanded posession of Skardu for the release. But no, we did nothing of that sort because Indira, IMO, did not have the strategic foresight to see how important those things wuold be for India or staunch enough to use the leverage of having 90,000 captive foreign soldiers to her advantage. In the future, if Pakis ever mess up India, we can look back at 1971 and failure to drive the stake through the heart of our enemy as the root cause.

[Number]

My post is proved correct, Sikhs are indeed raising issues in ENG/CA/USA/OZ. Now can you say my post was c h e w t i y a ? Read Dexter Morgan's post, they are maligning India and Hinduism abroad. Jai Sri Ram.

No clown its you, who is maligning India and Hinduism. I generally laugh off your posts but its frigging offensive the kind of stuff you post disguising as an ultra religious Hindu. ICF is tolerant, on some other forums you would have been banned for acting so lamely.

[suraj]

India gave shelter to Sikhs in 1947' date=' we protected their faith on many ocassions. They use Indian passport and settle in Canada! :desiman:[/quote'] Ban this idiot stupid mfer

[Swing_n_Speed]

That' date=' unfortunately, shows the mindset of Indian citizens in general. My statement will not be accepted well, but Indian citizens have some serious issues. 1984 is not the only travesty that was not only easily digested by the citizens of this country, but was subsequently supported and justified by the voters. The callousness, the stubbornness, the lack of sympathy and the general attitude of offense towards anyone outside a community is scary and shows why we struggle to progress as a nation.[/quote'] It's scary and it's true. This pattern has been repeated again and again. And so long as politicians inciting violence go away unpunished I fully expect further violence of this kind in the future. The only positive being that with information so easily available, politicians would have to think twice before pulling out such stunts again. But politicians aside, what makes voters vote for these creatures? Is it that in Indian democracy representation of the masses is inadequate? Or as u stated and I quote "The callousness, the stubbornness, the lack of sympathy and the general attitude of offense towards anyone outside a community" I think it's a combination of the above two factors along with a general sense of well I just don't care. It didn't affect me so why bother.

[Swing_n_Speed]

Ban this idiot stupid mfer

I think he's just trolling ICF

[Tiger80]

I totally agree that Tytler and all those ch00t1as should be hanged and ashamed...but what about those Sikhs who mercilessly killed Hindus in Punjab and at border of Haryana... My family gave shelter and financial help to couple of Hindu familes who moved from Punjab leaving all their money and houses jsut to excape the wrath..... Sad thing is 'Bhinderwala' and his croonies are prayed and regarded as saints in Gurudwara ... From a guy who didn't the difference a gurudwara and temple in India' date=' I have taken a vow now to ever visit a gurudwara cuz of that @ssh0les picture lying in the darbar...[/quote'] And why people keep bringing Punjab militancy and Bhindranwale when 1984 riots mentioned.? I have never seen anybody raising issue of Kashmiri pandits when they are discussing Gujarat riots

[Tiger80]

Dont let incidents like that, in India or abroad, change you to that extent. That said, your crux is not incorrect. Yes hindsight everything looks rosy but the fact is that Sikh extremism in late 70s and early 80s was the worst terrorism of its kind in Indian history, perhaps matched only by Bombay blasts. Even Kashmir extremism was not so bad. What has baffled me personally is that simple acceptance by Sikh experts which could have gone a long way in soothing the rest of the nation. I am not going to go into details, one can dig up information on the web. Killing of Indira Gandhi is the turning point in Indian history. You may not like her for a variety of reasons, but she was a tigress who defended India as a nation better than any other PM in Indian history, including her father Nehru. And tons better than Vajpayee. Had she been around Pakistan would have never ended up doing as much nonsense in Indian matters as it eventually did. Indian Armed Forced would have divided Pakistan again, she would have ensured that.

I guess Kashmiri militants throwing almost entire Kashmiri Pandits out of valley is not so bad militancy

[rahulrulezz]

And why people keep bringing Punjab militancy and Bhindranwale when 1984 riots mentioned.? I have never seen anybody raising issue of Kashmiri pandits when they are discussing Gujarat riots

Do I need to babyfeed ya....come out of denial phase... 1984 riots were due to assassination of Indra Gandhi which was in response to Operation Bluestar that happened due to Bhindranwala as he was the primary reason for Punjab militancy... 1984 Riots -> Indra Gandhi assassination -> Operation Bluestar -> Bhindranwala->Punjab militancy :mama:

[rahulrulezz]

Dont let incidents like that, in India or abroad, change you to that extent. That said, your crux is not incorrect. Yes hindsight everything looks rosy but the fact is that Sikh extremism in late 70s and early 80s was the worst terrorism of its kind in Indian history, perhaps matched only by Bombay blasts. Even Kashmir extremism was not so bad. What has baffled me personally is that simple acceptance by Sikh experts which could have gone a long way in soothing the rest of the nation. I am not going to go into details, one can dig up information on the web. Killing of Indira Gandhi is the turning point in Indian history. You may not like her for a variety of reasons, but she was a tigress who defended India as a nation better than any other PM in Indian history, including her father Nehru. And tons better than Vajpayee. Had she been around Pakistan would have never ended up doing as much nonsense in Indian matters as it eventually did. Indian Armed Forced would have divided Pakistan again, she would have ensured that.

Sorry dude but I have made up my mind... Us aatankwadi ki photo ke samne bethkar langar khana, ek baat kia maine Canada aakar, ab yeh main kabhi nahi karunga... I am glad that some people know outside Haryana Punjab ( like you) that huge amount of Hindus were also the victims before and after those riots and both parties should be ashamed and move on for better.. but you can't keep blaming only Hindus for everything... It was pathetic from both sides...

[Lurker]

I guess Kashmiri militants throwing almost entire Kashmiri Pandits out of valley is not so bad militancy

That is a false equivalency. Yes Kashmiri Hindus thrown out of Kashmir is one of the saddest chapter in India, and Kashmir. The question is not that however. We are talking of sheer violence. In terms of killings Sikh extemism was as deadly as what we have seen. Most folks from Punjab, and surrounding areas would attest to this easily. Today of course they somehow tend to get defensive talking about it.

[Lurker]

I used to think that before my Army uncle convinced me otherwise. If you look at 1971 and what India could've gotten, it makes a sorry case for 'Indira the lioness of India'. For one, the Indian army wanted to take over Thakurgaon and Panchgarh districts from Bangladesh and my uncle assures me that had India put forth this as a 'must comply' agenda to the Mukti Bahini, we had a good chance of getting those two districts: as it happens both these districts are between 40-45% hindu. Why do we want this district so bad ? so that we could fatten the chicken's neck. Negotiations were underway, where we'd cede sundarban land to them in exchange for Thakurgaon and Panchgarh and even allow a joint Bangladeshi commision to control the Farakka Barrage (their main sticking point against us). But no, Mrs Gandhi shot down that plan instantly. For two, we captured 90,000 Pakis and over 5000 sq kms of land in Pakiland. What did we do ? we gave it all back on conditions of 'good behaviour'. We could've crushed the Paki army's logistics and intelligensia by torturing those 90,000 enemy combatants to get vital information about their military. We could've kept the 5000 sq kms of land we gained in Sindh and told the Pakis 'tough beans'. We could've made the release of 90,000 Pakis contingent on Pakiland giving up half of Bagh district in Azad Kashmir, so that the road from Poonch to Uri were in Indian territorry. Or demanded posession of Skardu for the release. But no, we did nothing of that sort because Indira, IMO, did not have the strategic foresight to see how important those things wuold be for India or staunch enough to use the leverage of having 90,000 captive foreign soldiers to her advantage. In the future, if Pakis ever mess up India, we can look back at 1971 and failure to drive the stake through the heart of our enemy as the root cause.

I appreciate your insight but lets not turn this into 1971 war analysis. The point remains that 1971 war is a turning point in sub-continent history and no Indian PM, outside of Lal Bahadur Shastri, has acquited himself/herself more respectfully. Those who have some vague ideas of 80s would know how Indira Gandhi held her own stature in world centerstage. Like Kapil-Botham rivalry back then, it was Indira-Thatcher back then too and there were terrific stories of one trying to upstage the other. Indira rarely came second. In fact after Indira Gandhi our stature of PM in world political leadership has gone down increasingly. Rajiv Gandhi was charming, Gujral was an intellactual, so was Vajpayee but doubtful any one of them remotely have had the stature on world politics. Certainly not MMS and Devegowda.

[Muloghonto]

Do I need to babyfeed ya....come out of denial phase... 1984 riots were due to assassination of Indra Gandhi which was in response to Operation Bluestar that happened due to Bhindranwala as he was the primary reason for Punjab militancy... 1984 Riots -> Indra Gandhi assassination -> Operation Bluestar -> Bhindranwala->Punjab militancy :mama:

In Vancouver, there are a few Gurdwaras that have Bhindranwala, Satwant & Beant Singh near their Shrine, just a step below the copy of Granth Sahib and Guru nanak picture pedestrals. I once remarked to a Sikh Buddy that this is actually counterproductive as desis in Vancouver area are about 120,000 strong and half of them are Punjabis with the other half from elsewhere and the former two groups do not associate as much as we'd like to see. Reason being, we non punjabis get pretty furious at seeing the glorification of terrorists in their religious buildings. My buddy told me that this is necessary to keep reminding the Punjabi-Canadians about the attrocities of 1983 and how the Punjabis are a supressed group in India. At which i started laughing and asked him to explain how you can argue that a particular ethnicity is 'supressed' when they make up 3% of the population but almost 40% of the military and the police. Bus chup ho gaya tha woh.

[punjabiplaya]

Those who lost there life for no reason,how can there families ever forget?? young unmarried men,with there whole lives in front of them killed so gruesomely!!! many parents relying on there sons to care for them,having to live in poverty,also knowing there family line finished?????? How can elderly parents live day by day knowing there only son was murdered? shocking shocking....whoevers guilty no matter how high up politically they were or are now need to be bought to justice!!! r.Ambani its because of sikhs and other brave men that idiots like you are able to have a point of view and speak your mind and opinion,sikhs have protected 1000s n 1000s of hindu girls from being kidnapped n raped over the centuries...read the history books!!! I guarantee a true sikh will protect any sister or mother from attack always...no matter what your religion or ignorant views......

[Muloghonto]

Those who lost there life for no reason,how can there families ever forget?? young unmarried men,with there whole lives in front of them killed so gruesomely!!! many parents relying on there sons to care for them,having to live in poverty,also knowing there family line finished?????? How can elderly parents live day by day knowing there only son was murdered? shocking shocking....whoevers guilty no matter how high up politically they were or are now need to be bought to justice!!! r.Ambani its because of sikhs and other brave men that idiots like you are able to have a point of view and speak your mind and opinion,sikhs have protected 1000s n 1000s of hindu girls from being kidnapped n raped over the centuries...read the history books!!! I guarantee a true sikh will protect any sister or mother from attack always...no matter what your religion or ignorant views......

I completely agree. But i still feel my blood boil when i see the Sikhs here glorify the terrorists in the name of 'shaheeds'. The case of Khalistan is built purely on propaganda and a few Sikh goondas backed by the Pakis who pretend to hold 'power' here. Overseas Punjabis have definitely not done enough to root out the terrorist/seperatists from their midst and have played the 'victim' card, despite the fact that Punjabis are some of the most priviledged minority ethnicity in India.