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Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners


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2 hours ago, Forward Defence said:

We need a proper test match right arm legspinner. After Amit Mishra I can't recall any who have played in our test team. Hope Bishnoi or Chahar fills the void someday.

even better, a leg spinner who can bowl close to medium pace and maintain accuracy. such players are particularly deadly - like Bill O'Reilly and Sydney Barnes

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21 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

How are those finger spinners doing in tests outside Asia ?

 

Ability to turn the ball both ways ... thus introducing the element of deception ... has to be there if the surface is not offering huge turn.

 

Only Ashwin, after he has mastered his carrom ball in the last 2 years, has looked good in tests outside Asia.

 

90% of the finger spinners are like medium paced swing bowlers ... basically bowlers who do well only when conditions are very favourable.

Lyon has done well enough. I don't think it's a matter of bowling style alone, but also a matter of bowling ability. for example, Yasir Shah is a leggie but quite useless in several places in the world (e.g., Oz) due to lack of talent. think one should select the best bowlers for the conditions - if it so happens that they are left-arm pace or legspin, that's good, but even if not, the main criterion is that they should be effective.

 

I am noticing a real paucity of leg spin anywhere in the world. most of the effective test spinners are finger spinners: Lyon, Leach, Maharaj, Ashwin (to a lesser degree, Axar and Jaddu), Ajaz, Embuldeniya, Shakib, and so on. Leggies like Yasir (apart from UAE), Shadab, Hasaranga, Mason Crane, etc. have all done poorly in tests

Edited by Vijy
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8 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Lyon has done well enough. I don't think it's a matter of bowling style alone, but also a matter of bowling ability. for example, Yasir Shah is a leggie but quite useless in several places in the world (e.g., Oz) due to lack of talent. think one should select the best bowlers for the conditions - if it so happens that they are left-arm pace or legspin, that's good, but even if not, the main criterion is that they should be effective.

 

 

Lyon averages 32.4 in tests outside Asia. Since spinners will have to compete with pacers in those conditions ( the better pacers averaging less than 25 in those conditions )  I don't think such a bowler will be the ideal choice.

 

I am not saying that every wrist spinner will be good in tests outside Asia ... but there is a larger probability of finding a good all-condition spinner among wrist spinners  (  just like every pacer with extra pace or bounce is not good but most good pacers have either extra pace or extra bounce or both )

 

 

8 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I am noticing a real paucity of leg spin anywhere in the world. most of the effective test spinners are finger spinners: Lyon, Leach, Maharaj, Ashwin (to a lesser degree, Axar and Jaddu), Ajaz, Embuldeniya, Shakib, and so on. Leggies like Yasir, Shadab, Hasaranga, Mason Crane, etc. have all done poorly in tests

 

That's true. And I think the main reason is because wrist spinners are being primarily trained for white ball cricket these days.

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27 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Lyon has done well enough. I don't think it's a matter of bowling style alone, but also a matter of bowling ability. for example, Yasir Shah is a leggie but quite useless in several places in the world (e.g., Oz) due to lack of talent. think one should select the best bowlers for the conditions - if it so happens that they are left-arm pace or legspin, that's good, but even if not, the main criterion is that they should be effective.

 

I am noticing a real paucity of leg spin anywhere in the world. most of the effective test spinners are finger spinners: Lyon, Leach, Maharaj, Ashwin (to a lesser degree, Axar and Jaddu), Ajaz, Embuldeniya, Shakib, and so on. Leggies like Yasir (apart from UAE), Shadab, Hasaranga, Mason Crane, etc. have all done poorly in tests

that has coincided with leg spinners becoming to go-to option for almost all teams in white ball cricket. 

i still feel we should have one wrist spinner on standby, in the right conditions it is a weapon we will need to use. the mishra/jadeja/ashwin attack which played against saf in 2015 was the most well rounded spin attack i can think of since i started watching us play.

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Just now, express bowling said:

 

 

Lyon averages 32.4 in tests outside Asia. Since spinners will have to compete with pacers in those conditions ( the better pacers averaging less than 25 in those conditions )  I don't think such a bowler will be the ideal choice.

 

I am not saying that every wrist spinner will be good in tests outside Asia ... but there is a larger probability of finding a good all-condition spinner among wrist spinners  (  just like every pacer with extra pace or bounce is not good but most good pacers have either extra pace or extra bounce or both )

 

 

 

That's true. And I think the main reason is because wrist spinners are being primarily trained for white ball cricket these days.

I agree. This is why I feel the next gen of test spinners will mostly come from finger spinner category: they will be support bowlers in SENA and workhorse+strike bowlers in SC (and maybe some WI pitches). Leg spinners are increasingly become short-form specialists. Kind of sad that the days of McGill, Warne, Kumble, etc. are gone for now

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In tests outside Asia, only Warne, Murali and Higgs have averaged 26 or less in tests outside Asia in the last 50 years.

 

No finger spinner averages in the mid to low 20s.

 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=1;continent=1;continent=3;continent=4;continent=5;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=50;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=06+Dec+2021;spanmin1=06+Dec+1971;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

Which basically tells me that there is no point in playing a specialist spinner in tests outside Asia unless we find a super bowler like Warne or Murali. 

 

Just one spinner-cum allrounder ... like Jadeja or Ashwin  or Axar ... to bowl on the 5th day or if there is some turn on offer in the odd case ... is ideal in tests outside Asia.

 

 

Edited by express bowling
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4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

In tests outside Asia, only Warne, Murali and Highs have averaged 26 or less in tests outside Asia in the last 50 years.

 

No finger spinner averages in the mid to low 20s.

 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=1;continent=1;continent=3;continent=4;continent=5;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=50;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=06+Dec+2021;spanmin1=06+Dec+1971;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

Which basically tells me that there is no point in playing a specialist spinner in tests outside Asia unless we find a super bowler like Warne or Murali. 

 

Just one spinner-cum allrounder ... like Jadeja or Ashwin  or Axar ... to bowl on the 5th day or if there is some turn on offer in the odd case ... is ideal in tests outside Asia.

 

 

true that there is no finger spinner with an avg of 26, but Shakib is not far behind at 27 and even the mediocre Geoff Miller is at 28.5. Finger spinners can be excellent support bowlers if the pacers do their job (which is possible for Ind). I'd say that one bowling AR (Ashwin/Axar/Jadeja) + one batting AR (Sundar) would be enough in SENA. one can have 4 pacers with thakur being the AR in that quartet.

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9 minutes ago, express bowling said:

In tests outside Asia, only Warne, Murali and Highs have averaged 26 or less in tests outside Asia in the last 50 years.

 

No finger spinner averages in the mid to low 20s.

 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=1;continent=1;continent=3;continent=4;continent=5;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=50;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=06+Dec+2021;spanmin1=06+Dec+1971;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

Which basically tells me that there is no point in playing a specialist spinner in tests outside Asia unless we find a super bowler like Warne or Murali. 

 

Just one spinner-cum allrounder ... like Jadeja or Ashwin  or Axar ... to bowl on the 5th day or if there is some turn on offer in the odd case ... is ideal in tests outside Asia.

 

 

We have known that for years but Indian has seniority culture and myopic vision. 

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10 minutes ago, Vijy said:

true that there is no finger spinner with an avg of 26, but Shakib is not far behind at 27 and even the mediocre Geoff Miller is at 28.5. Finger spinners can be excellent support bowlers if the pacers do their job (which is possible for Ind). I'd say that one bowling AR (Ashwin/Axar/Jadeja) + one batting AR (Sundar) would be enough in SENA. one can have 4 pacers with thakur being the AR in that quartet.

 

 

Yes ... in the absence of a gun spinner in those conditions, the best way is to develop and pick spinner all-rounders who can be the support cast in tests outside Asia and be top bowlers in tests in Asia.

 

This also helps us play 4 pacers from No.8 to No.11, including a pacer-allrounder at 8 

 

 

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

How are those finger spinners doing in tests outside Asia ?

 

Ability to turn the ball both ways ... thus introducing the element of deception ... has to be there if the surface is not offering huge turn.

 

Only Ashwin, after he has mastered his carrom ball in the last 2 years, has looked good in tests outside Asia.

 

90% of the finger spinners are like medium paced swing bowlers ... basically bowlers who do well only when conditions are very favourable.

99% of leg spinners lack control. They are boundary machines. Spinners overseas are mostly used as a variety, not as a wicket taking option. You need tidy spinners, not someone who leaks runs and takes the pressure off.

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29 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I agree. This is why I feel the next gen of test spinners will mostly come from finger spinner category: they will be support bowlers in SENA and workhorse+strike bowlers in SC (and maybe some WI pitches). Leg spinners are increasingly become short-form specialists. Kind of sad that the days of McGill, Warne, Kumble, etc. are gone for now

Kumble wasn't much of a leg spinner. He was a medium cutter bowler with googly he developed quite late in his career.

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20 minutes ago, Vijy said:

true that there is no finger spinner with an avg of 26, but Shakib is not far behind at 27 and even the mediocre Geoff Miller is at 28.5. Finger spinners can be excellent support bowlers if the pacers do their job (which is possible for Ind). I'd say that one bowling AR (Ashwin/Axar/Jadeja) + one batting AR (Sundar) would be enough in SENA. one can have 4 pacers with thakur being the AR in that quartet.

 

 

Shakib has never played in Australia and has high bowling averages in NZ and England. So, I guess even he has been effective only in South Africa.

 

Miller has a very low Wickets / Match Ratio of less than 2 in tests outside Asia. Which tells us that he was a sort of part time bowler.

 

As you said ... it is better for us to stick with these spinner all-rounders unless we find a Warne or Murali.

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8 hours ago, rkt.india said:

99% of leg spinners lack control. They are boundary machines. Spinners overseas are mostly used as a variety, not as a wicket taking option. You need tidy spinners, not someone who leaks runs and takes the pressure off.

 

 

Warne, Kumble, Mushtaq Ahmed, Qadir and Paul Adams all have had ERs of less than 3 in tests ... and Kaneria, McGill, Yasir and Bishoo just marginally above 3.

 

It's not much different from the ERs of attacking finger spinners like Ashwin or Harbhajan.

Edited by express bowling
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21 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Kumble wasn't much of a leg spinner. He was a medium cutter bowler with googly he developed quite late in his career.

 

Now when did Kumble bowl cutters with any kind of regularity ?  What he bowled was classic leg spinners' flippers that angled in a bit.

 

And he developed the googly in the first half of his career only. 

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My observation

A big turner of ball if he is a leggie ,i have seen most of them stray from line more often than not

A big turner of ball if he is an off spinner ,they are mostly accurate

It all come down to who is best suited to your plan of attack,Shane Warne is once in a generation bowler,before Ashwin all offies chucked predominantly,but now things have changed besides being consistently accurate they cannot be expected to run through lineups overseas especially Indian ones

If you have a potent pace attack go with All genuine pace attack like we did in England

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1 hour ago, Suhaan said:

My observation

A big turner of ball if he is a leggie ,i have seen most of them stray from line more often than not

A big turner of ball if he is an off spinner ,they are mostly accurate

It all come down to who is best suited to your plan of attack,Shane Warne is once in a generation bowler,before Ashwin all offies chucked predominantly,but now things have changed besides being consistently accurate they cannot be expected to run through lineups overseas especially Indian ones

If you have a potent pace attack go with All genuine pace attack like we did in England

 

A finger spinner who can turn the ball ... and has a carrom ball ... Plus can bat at 7 or 8  ... like Ashwin ... is s good option to develop and look for.

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Going with 1 spinner in SENA should be preferred choice.  In Australia you can play 2 in SCG as it is quite flat.  Bit everywhere else you don't need more than 1.

In NZ someone like Washington Sundar has more upside than Jadeja.  He will bat better & keep things tight. 

In South Africa we should opt for.. 

Jadeja 

Shardul 

Bumrah 

Siraj

Shami/Umesh

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43 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

A finger spinner who can turn the ball ... and has a carrom ball ... Plus can bat at 7 or 8  ... like Ashwin ... is s good option to develop and look for.

Why not go with thakur at 7 and groom mavi for 8? He can bat decently. Then 3 main pacers siraj booms prasidh

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Shardul can easily bat at 7.

 

But they would want atleast 1 spinner for the 5th day.

True. What us ur opinion about this attack. Imo it's the second best after India's. Yes I rate it above even aussie attack for all conditions. Kiwi attack is very limited to seaming wickets. On flat wickets they aren't good and neither are they good on Turner's. 

 

Rabada

Olivier

Nortje

Mahraj

Mulder

 

People sleeping on s.africa. watch out is all I can say. Would not be surprised if they butcher teams at home. I think they have the tools to win in Australia and in new zzealand. N.z have been their bitches for a while.

 

 

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