Tennis :2017 season

[Muloghonto]

On 11/18/2017 at 10:01 AM, zep1706 said:

Not a great year for ATP, it was poor all around, all Fed fanatics shitting on Nadal's US open draw should take a look at Federer Wimbledon draw. The only player who had a tiny chance shat his pants in the final and cried, that or he was genuinely carrying some injury . Hopefully next year would be more competitive. 

Agreed that Wimbledon was, for Roger, a cakewalk. But we've had such occasional 'easy draws', where a great champion faces like 1-2  good players and snags a title. 
IIRC there was one year like that for Sampras, where he beat a heavily declined Becker and Pioline for the Wimbledon crown.

 

However, Nadal's USO draw, it was some special luck. I've been watching tennis from the late 80s, so dunno before then, but i don't think i've ever seen a grand slam being won by not facing a single seeded player and one  protected ranked player who's 'better than his ranking but doesnt have points due to long term injuries', who happened to be sick as a dog and was recovering from flu during the championships itself. 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Muloghonto

[zep1706]

9 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Agreed that Wimbledon was, for Roger, a cakewalk. But we've had such occasional 'easy draws', where a great champion faces like 1-2  good players and snags a title. 
IIRC there was one year like that for Sampras, where he beat a heavily declined Becker and Pioline for the Wimbledon crown.

 

However, Nadal's USO draw, it was some special luck. I've been watching tennis from the late 80s, so dunno before then, but i don't think i've ever seen a grand slam being won by not facing a single seeded player and one  protected ranked player who's 'better than his ranking but doesnt have points due to long term injuries', who happened to be sick as a dog and was recovering from flu during the championships itself. 

 

 

Federer's Wimbledon draw this year was not tougher than Nadal's US open by any means. Seeds only tell you part of the story as they carry points from previous 52 weeks. Anyone who has watched tennis this year knows that both Raonic and Berdych have been totally non factors this year due to injury, poor form etc. I think both of them are outside top 20 now. As I said before the only guy who had like a 5% chance of beating Federer cried in the final after losing one set. In comparison, Del Potro was perhaps tougher despite his lower seed at that time, at least he won a set and played like he had a chance. 

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, zep1706 said:

Federer's Wimbledon draw this year was not tougher than Nadal's US open by any means. Seeds only tell you part of the story as they carry points from previous 52 weeks. Anyone who has watched tennis this year knows that both Raonic and Berdych have been totally non factors this year due to injury, poor form etc. I think both of them are outside top 20 now. As I said before the only guy who had like a 5% chance of beating Federer cried in the final after losing one set. In comparison, Del Potro was perhaps tougher despite his lower seed at that time, at least he won a set and played like he had a chance. 

In that case, if you'd actually watched the matches, Berdych vs Federer was a far far higher quality match than any match involving Rafa in the USO. 

It was crystal clear after the first set that DelPo is still sick and completely out of gas, which is why Nadal was able to completely dominate him after set 1.

In comparison, for first two sets, there was nothing separating Federer and Berdych, except a wee bit of luck.

 

[zep1706]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

In that case, if you'd actually watched the matches, Berdych vs Federer was a far far higher quality match than any match involving Rafa in the USO. 

It was crystal clear after the first set that DelPo is still sick and completely out of gas, which is why Nadal was able to completely dominate him after set 1.

In comparison, for first two sets, there was nothing separating Federer and Berdych, except a wee bit of luck.

 

It was more of a case of Rafa changing his tactics and going down the line with his forehand and forcing Del Potro to move out of his backhand corner. Del Potro played decent throughout the match, Rafa just had better tactics from set 2. 

 

In any case, I just checked the full Wimbleodon draw and Federer did beat Dimitrov, Dimitrov had a decent year this year so I suppose Federer's draw was slightly stronger. 

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, zep1706 said:

It was more of a case of Rafa changing his tactics and going down the line with his forehand and forcing Del Potro to move out of his backhand corner. Del Potro played decent throughout the match, Rafa just had better tactics from set 2. 

Well duh, Rafa realized that DelPo is not running more than 2 feet for the ball because he was still taking meds and was gassed after Federer match, so played that way. Doesn't change the fact that DelPo-Rafa was a far lower quality match than Federer-Berdych.

 

 

3 minutes ago, zep1706 said:

In any case, I just checked the full Wimbleodon draw and Federer did beat Dimitrov, Dimitrov had a decent year this year so I suppose Federer's draw was slightly stronger. 

If you are looking at it in terms of draw, yes Federer's draw was way harder than Rafael's USO draw, though still easy for Federer. Beating Dimitrov, Raonic, Berdych and Cilic - the last 3 who've actually beaten Federer in a GS match- is way harder than beating DelPo and then a bunch of nobodies. If you look at the quality of the matches itself, its a bit closer, but Berdych-Federer was a very high quality match and Berdych had a good chance to sneak out the first two sets right till the very end. 

[zep1706]

On 11/20/2017 at 1:31 PM, Muloghonto said:

Well duh, Rafa realized that DelPo is not running more than 2 feet for the ball because he was still taking meds and was gassed after Federer match, so played that way. Doesn't change the fact that DelPo-Rafa was a far lower quality match than Federer-Berdych.

 

 

If you are looking at it in terms of draw, yes Federer's draw was way harder than Rafael's USO draw, though still easy for Federer. Beating Dimitrov, Raonic, Berdych and Cilic - the last 3 who've actually beaten Federer in a GS match- is way harder than beating DelPo and then a bunch of nobodies. If you look at the quality of the matches itself, its a bit closer, but Berdych-Federer was a very high quality match and Berdych had a good chance to sneak out the first two sets right till the very end. 

I'd say Federer's 2006 AO draw was probably as weak as Nadal's US open draw. The only top 20 player he beat was Davydenko. 2007AO was only slightly tougher, he did beat Roddick but we all know how well Roddick played in that semi.

Edited November 22, 2017 by zep1706

[zep1706]

On 11/20/2017 at 2:01 PM, Muloghonto said:

 

However, Nadal's USO draw, it was some special luck. I've been watching tennis from the late 80s, so dunno before then, but i don't think i've ever seen a grand slam being won by not facing a single seeded player and one  protected ranked player who's 'better than his ranking but doesnt have points due to long term injuries', who happened to be sick as a dog and was recovering from flu during the championships itself. 

 

 

I didn't read this part of your post carefully. I don't think you're aware how protected ranking actually works. It's not used to seed players, it's used just as an entry tool if a player falls off the cutoff ranking which I think is 104 at slams, anyone with a higher ranking than that gets direct entry and doesn't need to use protected rankings. So Del Potro's 24 seed was due to his actual ranking, based on the ranking points he'd earned till that point. Also Anderson was seeded 28. So Rafa did play 2 seeded players, your statement that he did not play any seeded player was wrong. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by zep1706

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, zep1706 said:

I didn't read this part of your post carefully. I don't think you're aware how protected ranking actually works. It's not used to seed players, it's used just as an entry tool if a player falls off the cutoff ranking which I think is 104 at slams, anyone with a higher ranking than that gets direct entry and doesn't need to use protected rankings. So Del Potro's 24 seed was due to his actual ranking, based on the ranking points he'd earned till that point. Also Anderson was seeded 28. So Rafa did play 2 seeded players, your statement that he did not play any seeded player was wrong. 

Dude, i know how PR works. I meant it in terms of players who are ranked way below where they should be, not just for PR but also because of the DelPo of 2016 ( lots of rust, played a near full schedule but lost a lot earlier/entered way more 250s draws because of low ranking (and hence couldn't make his few good matches count for a lot of points early on).  Same boat Novak, Andy, Stanimal, Raonic etc. would be, if they don't hit the ground running like Fedal 2017.
 

3 hours ago, zep1706 said:

I'd say Federer's 2006 AO draw was probably as weak as Nadal's US open draw. The only top 20 player he beat was Davydenko. 2007AO was only slightly tougher, he did beat Roddick but we all know how well Roddick played in that semi.

Err no. 
 

I think this is the first time anyone has won a slam while facing no opponent higher than word #25. IIRC, even Becker himself when he first won his slam was like world #20 or 24 or something. 

Besides, AO06 was a weak draw, but as i said, it happens once in a while that a world #1 or 2 will face only one guy in the top 10, who is ranked low in that spectrum (i.e., 6-10). 

06 was also a long time ago, when the balls were less fluffier and all the courts had less sand paint in it and thus faster. 

As such, yes, the 00-07 period had a lot less consistency- except for Fedal & Agassi's last hurrah/final push.

17USO is the easiest slam win by a highly seeded player (top 4) i've ever seen. 

 

[zep1706]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Dude, i know how PR works. I meant it in terms of players who are ranked way below where they should be, not just for PR but also because of the DelPo of 2016 ( lots of rust, played a near full schedule but lost a lot earlier/entered way more 250s draws because of low ranking (and hence couldn't make his few good matches count for a lot of points early on).  Same boat Novak, Andy, Stanimal, Raonic etc. would be, if they don't hit the ground running like Fedal 2017.
 

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say, earlier you said Nadal didn't play any seeded player and that Del Potro's seed was due to protected ranking. You were wrong on both counts. Del Potro was seeded 24 and it had nothing to do with protected ranking. He gained all those points in 2017 by playing tournaments and was good enough to beat Federer in 4 sets a round before. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by zep1706

[zep1706]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

I think this is the first time anyone has won a slam while facing no opponent higher than word #25. IIRC, even Becker himself when he first won his slam was like world #20 or 24 or something. 

Besides, AO06 was a weak draw, but as i said, it happens once in a while that a world #1 or 2 will face only one guy in the top 10, who is ranked low in that spectrum (i.e., 6-10). 

06 was also a long time ago, when the balls were less fluffier and all the courts had less sand paint in it and thus faster. 

As such, yes, the 00-07 period had a lot less consistency- except for Fedal & Agassi's last hurrah/final push.

17USO is the easiest slam win by a highly seeded player (top 4) i've ever seen. 

 

I disagree. I think Federer's 2006 AO draw (or even 2007 AO for that matter) was as weak as Nadal's US open draw, if not weaker considering Del Potro is actually a tougher player to beat in slams than Davydenko. 

 

Sampras' 2000 Wimbledon draw was equally weak (1997 too but you already mentioned that). He played a qualifier in semi and played only one seeded player in the entire tournament (12 Rafter in the final). Admittedly there were only 16 seeds back then but none of the players he beat were even in the top 30 at that point. 

 

The point is many players in the past have benefited from weaker draws. Nadal's US open draw was definitely weak but it's not something completely unprecedented. If you play long enough once in a while you do get lucky. Nadal has beaten Federer/Djokovic to win 12 slams. That more than makes up for any weak draw he got. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by zep1706

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, zep1706 said:

I disagree. I think Federer's 2006 AO draw (or even 2007 AO for that matter) was as weak as Nadal's US open draw, if not weaker considering Del Potro is actually a tougher player to beat in slams than Davydenko. 

On reputation, sure. But Davydenko that day played great and DelPo was gassed and sick. So no, Nadal's US Open draw was way easier: way lower players faced (15 years ago, none of them would be seeded) and way lower quality of tennis. Ie, not a *single* match where the opposition played well. Nadal himself was playing so-so and still won. 

 

5 hours ago, zep1706 said:

Sampras' 2000 Wimbledon draw was equally weak (1997 too but you already mentioned that). He played a qualifier in semi and played only one seeded player in the entire tournament (12 Rafter in the final). Admittedly there were only 16 seeds back then but none of the players he beat were even in the top 30 at that point. 

Yeah, in ALL of these ones, there is atleast one high ranking seed or atleast one dude who presents a serious challenge. Sampras played Rafter who himself was on a roll in 2000 if memory serves me correct. Pioline was ranked #9 or so, not #20+ 

Also, how is facing #12 not facing anyone in the top 30 at that point ?!

5 hours ago, zep1706 said:

The point is many players in the past have benefited from weaker draws. Nadal's US open draw was definitely weak but it's not something completely unprecedented. If you play long enough once in a while you do get lucky. Nadal has beaten Federer/Djokovic to win 12 slams. That more than makes up for any weak draw he got. 

Its not unprecedented. But it is the easiest cakewalk ever for a top ranked tennis player. As i said, not a single opponent played well, not a single opponent was ranked in the top 20. That level of cakewalk, to my knowledge, hasn't happened before.

 

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, zep1706 said:

I have no idea what you're trying to say, earlier you said Nadal didn't play any seeded player and that Del Potro's seed was due to protected ranking. You were wrong on both counts. Del Potro was seeded 24 and it had nothing to do with protected ranking. He gained all those points in 2017 by playing tournaments and was good enough to beat Federer in 4 sets a round before. 

And he was still sick, taking meds for his flu. Which is why he completely ran out of gas after 1 hour vs Nadal. 

Similar thing happened in the Thiem match in 4R, but Thiem couldn't close it out, when DelPo was completely out of shape for the first two sets.

 

[kumar713]

Thoughts on Djokovic hiring Stepanek ?  

 

Looks decent

Edited December 1, 2017 by kumar713

[Gollum]

Next year I want Nick to nick one major. Also want 1 each for Nole and Fed and precisely zero for Nadal. 

[surajmal]

Shapovalov! Shapovalov! Shapovalov! 

[kumar713]

Nadal with an easy draw in AO.

Tough draw for Nole considering he is making a comeback from injury.

 

 

Wearing the sleeves   His serve motion has changed too  Hope his elbow is fine  

Initially there were doubts regarding his participation. Looks like Nole will play the tournament. Practiced today with his team including Agassi  

[Gollum]

Another cakewalk draw for Nadal, seriously how can someone get this lucky? 

[surajmal]

Vamos Rafa!