For Aussie fans: Name your most feared opposition XI

[Donny]

Donny, So with the definition now moved from fear to healthy respect what would be the XI you beleive Aussies would have maximum respect for?

Fairly simple. Greenidge Haynes Richards Lara Sobers Lloyd (captain) Dujon Holding Marshall Garner Roberts Initially, I just selected the great Windies team of their dominant era but added Sobers and Lara in place of Logie and Richie Rich.

[Mr. Wicket]

Clyde Walcott instead of Rohan Kanhai. Have to get one of the W's in there. Ideally I would want Frank Worrell in the team as well, and he would be the skipper too, but in the very least Clyde Walcott. Plus he can don the gloves if need be. Frank Tyson ahead of Alec Bedser. No disrespect to Sir Alec but Frank Tyson was one bowler who really did terrify Aussies, and in their backyard. Plus it would be fun to see Tyson take wickets and rile Trueman who never admitted that Tyson was the faster lad.

Lurks, agree with you on Tyson. In fact in an earlier post responding to Donny, I said: "Although I probably should replace either Fazal Mahmood or Alec Bedser with Typhoon Tyson, who was one of the few to really rough up Aussie players and have them sweating and struggling." I'd still keep Kanhai in the side though, at least after reading some of Benaud's old anecdotes about Kanhai, and the perception in Benaud's side that Kanhai was one of the few batsmen out there who could take the game away and change it very quickly if he was at the crease for any length of time. And some of the stories about Kanhai's innovation and panache are amazing - I would have loved to have seen the man bat for a full session...

[Lurker]

So essentially the great Windies team of late 70s and 80s with Gomes making way for Lara and Richadson for Sobers. Well hard to argue with that. Fairly balanced team and one who could strike a fear in the opposition, Aussies or not.

[Mr. Wicket]

Meanwhile, pre-WWII, there's only one man who stands out...

[Lurker]

Lurks, agree with you on Tyson. In fact in an earlier post responding to Donny, I said: "Although I probably should replace either Fazal Mahmood or Alec Bedser with Typhoon Tyson, who was one of the few to really rough up Aussie players and have them sweating and struggling." I'd still keep Kanhai in the side though, at least after reading some of Benaud's old anecdotes about Kanhai, and the perception in Benaud's side that Kanhai was one of the few batsmen out there who could take the game away and change it very quickly if he was at the crease for any length of time. And some of the stories about Kanhai's innovation and panache are amazing - I would have loved to have seen the man bat for a full session...

Kanhai was a great player of course. Any batsman who can inspire Sunil Gavaskar enough so as to make the latter name his son after him has to be something. When I hear of Kanhai I am almost always taken back to the first time I had heard his name, and that was in Sunny Gavaskar's Idols where he mentioned his first trip to West Indies. In the first test Sobers took a wonderful catch at slip and Sunny mentions how he said to the other fielder - If I can only see Rohan Kanhai with his falling hook shot this tour is complete for me - such was the reverence for Kanhai's stroke play. So yes Kanhai was awesome, no two questions there.

[bharat297]

Donny ... I dont think its a weakness to fear. You're not afraid of the person themselves, but as a fan you're afraid of what they are capable of. I dont believe the Aussie fans are above fear and dont fear any opposition players ability. Its a natural human reaction. How one handles it is a different story, but i dont believe for a second that Aussie fans dont fear any opposition player. Sorry, I dont buy that for a second.

[Donny]

You don't have to 'buy' anything, Bharat. It's simply my opinion. I can't talk for all Aussie fans and neither can you but I can talk from 50 years experience in the game including 30 years of coaching and captaincy experience. In that time, and from my observations, I saw, first hand, how self defeating it was to fear the opposition or individual players. It's an energy. It may as well (or better) be used in a positive way. i.e. Turn the fear into a challenge. My teams were incredibly successful. Ok, so that relates to playing the game. Re. fans. Further to what I wrote, obviously some fans will be sucked in to the 'fear factor' and media hype but there's a general cultural appreciation and empathy for the underdog in Oz. Perhaps because we're such a small population, taking on the world in sporting events. Some say it's our convict history and our love for walloping the Poms. For whatever reason, the underdog doesn't cringe in fear. He stands up to the bully/the bigger opponent/the one others fear and says, "Bring it on!" :regular_smile:

[Predator_05]

For whatever reason' date=' the underdog doesn't cringe in fear. He stands up to the bully/the bigger opponent/the one others fear and says, "Bring it on!" :regular_smile:[/quote'] Nicely put. THESE GUYS of course, being the PERFECT example of that fearless attitude;

[bharat297]

You don't have to 'buy' anything, Bharat. It's simply my opinion. I can't talk for all Aussie fans and neither can you but I can talk from 50 years experience in the game including 30 years of coaching and captaincy experience. In that time, and from my observations, I saw, first hand, how self defeating it was to fear the opposition or individual players. It's an energy. It may as well (or better) be used in a positive way. i.e. Turn the fear into a challenge. My teams were incredibly successful. Ok, so that relates to playing the game. Re. fans. Further to what I wrote, obviously some fans will be sucked in to the 'fear factor' and media hype but there's a general cultural appreciation and empathy for the underdog in Oz. Perhaps because we're such a small population, taking on the world in sporting events. Some say it's our convict history and our love for walloping the Poms. For whatever reason, the underdog doesn't cringe in fear. He stands up to the bully/the bigger opponent/the one others fear and says, "Bring it on!" :regular_smile:

Ok Fantastic ... I ask a simple question and you give me a patriotic motivational speech ... Thank you.

[Donny]

So essentially the great Windies team of late 70s and 80s with Gomes making way for Lara and Richadson for Sobers. Well hard to argue with that. Fairly balanced team and one who could strike a fear in the opposition' date=' Aussies or not.[/quote'] I selected an established team instead of eleven individuals for two reasons. 1. That team (with the variables of the 4 pacemen and adding Sobers & Lara) dominated the Aussie from 1977 to 1994, losing only 6 Tests of the 36 played. 2. We saw the disasterous attempt to select a World XI (best of the rest of the world) to play Australia a few years back. Even with the glaring omission of Vaas and the withdrawal of Tendulkar, it was a star studded team. They were humiliated in all 3 ODIs and couldn't manage 200 in either of their innings in the Super Test - even with a batting card of Smith, Sehwag, Dravid, Lara, Kallis, Inzamam, Flintoff, Boucher & Vettori. I don't usually partake in these exercises as they're so totally hypothetical but for you, Lurker, I make an exception. :regular_smile:

[Donny]

Nicely put. THESE GUYS of course, being the PERFECT example of that fearless attitude;

Indeed. I would totally agree if it was a pic of India's second Test team. :regular_smile:

[bharat297]

I selected an established team instead of eleven individuals for two reasons. 1. That team (with the variables of the 4 pacemen and adding Sobers & Lara) dominated the Aussie from 1977 to 1994, losing only 6 Tests of the 36 played. 2. We saw the disasterous attempt to select a World XI (best of the rest of the world) to play Australia a few years back. Even with the glaring omission of Vaas and the withdrawal of Tendulkar, it was a star studded team. They were humiliated in all 3 ODIs and couldn't manage 200 in either of their innings in the Super Test - even with a batting card of Smith, Sehwag, Dravid, Lara, Kallis, Inzamam, Flintoff, Boucher & Vettori. I don't usually partake in these exercises as they're so totally hypothetical but for you, Lurker, I make an exception. :regular_smile:

The problem with that Super Test was that even though it was a star studded batting line-up ... they had hardly ever played together before. They were never really gonna be a match for an Aussie team who spend 250+ days per year training/playing together. Different batting styles, different tactics, different approaches to the game itself were always going to be an issue. Not to mention the egos that would have clashed during that series. I was happy with the result in that Super Series because it showed how cricket is a team game.

[Donny]

Ok Fantastic ... I ask a simple question and you give me a patriotic motivational speech ... Thank you.

So, your second apology to me was also fraudulent, Bharat ? You rubbished my genuine attempt to reply to your thoughts on the fear factor, using sarcasm. Disappointing - again - but I'll press on as your attitude serves to give me a deeper appreciation of members like Salil, Preds, Lurker, Tics, Cochise, Gambit and a few others who actually DO have a grasp of debate, respect & good humour.

[bharat297]

Indeed. I would totally agree if it was a pic of India's second Test team. :regular_smile:

I think the CB series winners typify fearlessness more so than the test team. Look at the challenges that were put in front of them: * They were inexperienced and young - Their opponents (the world champs were not) * They had to deal with a lot of media BS which at just 18 or 19 years of age (as many of them were), they couldnt have been prepared for * They were playing in the backyard of the world champions (and subsequently had to deal with the crowds) * Had to deal with their own media putting additional pressure on them after the axing of Ganguly and Dravid. Yet at no stage in the series, even when they were getting hammered in Sydney in the match before the finals did their shoulders drop or did they lose their self-belief.

[bharat297]

So, your second apology to me was also fraudulent, Bharat ? You rubished my genuine attempt to reply to your thoughts on the fear factor with sarcasm. Disappointing - again - but I'll press on as your attitude serves to give me a deeper appreciation of members like Salil, Preds, Lurker, Tics, Cochise, Gambit and a few others who actually DO have a grasp of debate, respect & good humour.

I appreciate the debate ... but like I have said on many, many, many posts in this thread ... as a fan , to fear an opposition player doesnt necessarily mean you quiver in your boots at the sight of them and are rendered helpless (as you seem to suggest it does). For instance, as an Indian fan ... I fear Matthew Hayden mainly because I have seen many times what the man is capable of. Does that mean that India wont do anything against him? No. Does that mean that Zaheer Khan or anyone else opposing Hayden has to shake in their boots and surrender at the sight of Hayden? No. A fan fearing the possibility of a big innings or bagful of wickets from one of their opponents says nothing about the mentality of the country they are from or the team they support. The Australians admitted themselves they used to fear Viv Richards when he walked out to the middle. Just imagine what the fans must have been feeling. Their fielders would instinctively take 5 steps back. Ian Chappell admitted the Aussies are scared of Virender Sehwag. Ive been to matches where Sehwag has run a muck and the Aussie fans sitting next to me would genuinely fear that he would take the game away from them. The Aussies were scared of Shoaib Akthar when he first arrived on the scene. That doesnt make them mentally weaker or any less quality an opponent. Its human nature as a fan to fear an opposition player because: a) You have respect for their abilities and you know what they are capable of b) You have seen this player win matches against your team before c) This is the main reason ... As a fan, the main reason you may fear an opposition player is because being a fan there is nothing you can do to help the situation. I have addressed this time and time again with my posts. Everyone else on this forum seemed to understand that, but you keep responding with patriotism about how Australians fear nothing, when that is simply not the case.

[bharat297]

Also can I say Donny ... you dont need to be so sensitive about this ... ok. This is an internet forum ... whatever you say , you're always bound to get people that will call you crazy for your views and your bound to get a few sarcastic remarks and possibly meaningless jokes thrown your way. If you think I am the only person that has responded to someone else's post with sarcasm then I suggest you take some time and look at a lot of the other threads in this forum. Despite what you may think, I have nothing to apologise for. I have not insulted you personally. I have not made any derogatory, racial or crude remarks at your expense. I have been responding to anything you, or anyone else for that matter, have said, purely through argument over cricket related matters. On the way I may have used a few CAPITAL LETTERS or exclamation marks !!! or emoticons :winky:. They were never meant to be a personal insult, and they do not need to be taken as such. Like I said, this is just an internet forum ... no need to be so serious.

[cochise]

It's an energy. It may as well (or better) be used in a positive way. i.e. Turn the fear into a challenge.

Exactly! The bigger and tougher the opposition, the larger should be ones fight. The larger the odds stacked against one, the harder one strives to win... and the more one RELISHES the contest. The heart should grow fond of and seek out insurmountable and fierce opposition...for therein, lies the challenge of sport...and in overcoming it, or perishing in the process, is the spirit realised.

[King Tendulkar]

So, your second apology to me was also fraudulent, Bharat ? You rubbished my genuine attempt to reply to your thoughts on the fear factor, using sarcasm. Disappointing - again - but I'll press on as your attitude serves to give me a deeper appreciation of members like Salil, Preds, Lurker, Tics, Cochise, Gambit and a few others who actually DO have a grasp of debate, respect & good humour.

My god, what a patronising post!

[Lurker]

I don't usually partake in these exercises as they're so totally hypothetical but for you' date=' Lurker, I make an exception. :regular_smile:[/quote'] Thanks for that Donny, I appreciate it. I think you have already answered the question but let me make it sure. Was there any reason why you went for Lara and Sobers, great bats as they were, over say a Graeme Pollock, a Sachin Tendulkar etc? Was it because an All Windies XI would be a more cohesive unit? Or was it because in your opinion Lara and Sobers were the greatest non-Aussies bats that you saw? I do concur about your assessment of how a greatest XI doesnt necessary translate to a great team. However I must concede it is good fun thingy. I can still recall when Benaud picked his XI. Even though he clearly mentioned it was not all time greatest XI but a team that he would like to watch sipping champaigne, even then it aroused so much interest. Also on a side note, how come I havent you seen you write about any of the past Aussie greats?? It would be awesome if you could dip into your memory/experience and write something about greats like Miller and Lindwall, Mailey and Tiger Reilley. Trust me there would be a good audience for that. xxx

[Donny]

Your reasoning was spot on re. Lara - and Pollock. I toyed with the idea of including Graeme Pollock as a 'guest' player in that all Windies lineup but decided against it and went with Rohan Kanhai before BCL came to mind. Kanhai was a wonderful batsman but Charlie in full flight was a joy to behold - as was Pollock. However, they both came a touch behind THAT Sobers innings at the MCG.

Also on a side note' date=' how come I havent you seen you write about any of the past Aussie greats?? It would be awesome if you could dip into your memory/experience and write something about greats like Miller and Lindwall, Mailey and Tiger Reilley. Trust me there would be a good audience for that.[/quote'] Mate, I'm not quite that old. :regular_smile: Also, I was 12 before I knew anything at all about cricket. I was at a mate's house in Dec. '58. We went inside to get a drink and passed through the loungeroom. He went ahead to the kitchen as something caught my eye, on the TV. It was cricket at the MCG. What really intrigued me was this smallish man in white stroking the ball in the most interesting way. He was a left hander and was playing some silken square drives and cuts. I was fascinated how he could hit the ball through (what I later learned was) the off side. When the spinners came on, (Messrs Laker & Lock) he danced down the wicket and drove them. I stood, transfixed. My mate called me and I left the little man to go on and score 167 in a Test I later read about. Australia had beaten England by 8 wickets. The man's name ? Neil Harvey. From that point on, I was hooked. I devoured cricket books and read everything in the papers about cricket and started playing, at school. Richie Benaud was the then Aussie captain who, with Frank Worrall, really breathed life back into Test cricket a couple of years later during that marvellous series which included the first ever tie. It was also when I first witnessed the incredible talents of the one and only Garfield Sobers. I never saw the great Ray Lindwall play but I did meet him at the Gabba after a Sheffield Shield match in '66. I went into the Victorian dressing rooms to meet the players. He was chatting to Peter Burge so I took a deep breath and introduced myself. We had a bit of a chat and I got his autograph.