Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

[King Tendulkar]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

i am really glad that unlike the teams of the yesteryears this team has a soul to which the youngsters could look up to!

:lmao: :lmao:

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

4 years ago the Pak team were on paper as good as they are now if not better. They could, quite realistically, have lost to Ireland say in the 03 WC. Every non Pakistani would have said ' thats just super-inconsistent Pak being them selves' ( The Pakistanis of course, would have said it was fixed) Now however they lose and religion or 'over religious zeal' becomes an easy scapegoat...when essentially it is the same Pak team with that same tendency to slip from the sublime to the ridiculous with great ease.

I wonder how many people would have blamed that loss on all the clubbing and pubing? Just like people are coming up with statements such as the young players are being forced to pray i can here argue that the young players of the 90s were influenced to go to night club and smoke then how come media didn't portray that as something negative? For the youngsters growing up in PAK i would rather have their "heroes" to be pious Muslims than to be pot smoking clubbers and pubbers! So from that stand point i am really glad that unlike the teams of the yesteryears this team has a soul to which the youngsters could look up to!

Where is this discussion heading to ? Why don't you guys acknowledge the fact that Fatso's Tablighi influence on the team is unwarranted and unnecessary. Please stop beating around the bush. In this era of secular society which you guys conveniently enjoy in UK/USA , this kind of religious bigotry should not be tolerated. Your own president Mushy is against it. Sports arena should be insulated from religious folks and their nefarious activities. Inzy is free to practice his religion at home , but this on your face religion is quite irksome and jarring. And do you condone Sooda's statement that prayer is far far more important than cricket and less religious folks should be coerced into it. You are completely discounting Mr Mir assertion and labeling him as a muppet. And If may I add, you have your head buried in the sand, if you can't see through this beard brigade and their radical influence on the Pak team and society in general.

[Mandrake]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

CC, Look at the pic, the stadium is totally empty with only one or two ball boys around! In fact i would say that there will be more people watching them in the hotel than in an empty stadium!

MP...that is a really absurd statement....so you are saying that praying in an open stadium with the ever present media is more private than doing the same in their hotel rooms??

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

CC, Look at the pic, the stadium is totally empty with only one or two ball boys around! In fact i would say that there will be more people watching them in the hotel than in an empty stadium!

MP...that is a really absurd statement....so you are saying that praying in an open stadium with the ever present media is more private than doing the same in their hotel rooms??

The entire team can't pray in the tiny hotel room.

[CC1981]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

CC, Look at the pic, the stadium is totally empty with only one or two ball boys around! In fact i would say that there will be more people watching them in the hotel than in an empty stadium!

Mate, that is called flaunting it. Couldn't they do it in the dressing room or someplace more discreet ? You say that the stadium is empty- well, even an 'empty' stadium that only has practicing players in it has atleast a hundred folks around aside the players. Seems like a public enough place to me. To be very frank, i don't like the flaunting aspect of Islam- where it flaunts itself to others as if its in constant competition. Everywhere in the middle east there are huge masjid minarets droning out the Azan calls five times a day. Funny how praying is such an integral part of your religion yet Islam cannot rely on the faith of individuls to flock them to the mosques...it *has* to announce itself with ear-splitting loudspeakers and the whiniest, shrillest voice you can imagine yelling 'Ash hadu an ila...' No other faith does this. For eg, devout Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians have to say prayers nine times a day. Some before daybreak, some during the day, some at night, etc etc. Infact, some of those Catholics only have 5 hours of unbroken time without prayer at any point- meaning they often WAKE UP from sleep, pray and go back to bed! That is more hardcore than muslims and they don't string up loudspeakers at every galli-mohollah reminding their faithfuls to pray.. And even the ones that feel the need to remind its worshippers when its time, they do it discreetly...like with a huge gong sounding the 'hour' or something like that. They don't go reciting their holy prayers with a mike on top of their churches five times a day..

[CC1981]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

The entire team can't pray in the tiny hotel room.

Maybe the team should refer to the verses in the Koran that explicitly states that a human's relationship with God is personal and thus keep it so. Can't they pray individually or do they need some 'neta' every prayer to say out the verses loud so that they can pretend to be in the chorus ? I am not the praying type but personally, if i think this whole 'group prayer' mentality is flawed. Sure, its good to do it once in a while but if i am praying five times a day everyday, i'd like to do my prayer in private. Sticking to a group everytime is a bit of 'jaldi jaldi..koi shuru karo mantra, mein peeche se chaar sabdh bolke bhaagta hoon' mentality. If you feel the need to congreggate for a religious display, do it in a religious institution like a mosque/temple/church etc. or establish a tradition of festivals. You cant just walk into the middle of a sports stadium and start praying to your God en masse. Besides, they always have the dressing room to pray in if their interest was just on praying. But it is not just praying, its praying and advertisement of faith hand in hand.

[Mandrake]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

CC, Look at the pic, the stadium is totally empty with only one or two ball boys around! In fact i would say that there will be more people watching them in the hotel than in an empty stadium!

MP...that is a really absurd statement....so you are saying that praying in an open stadium with the ever present media is more private than doing the same in their hotel rooms??

The entire team can't pray in the tiny hotel room.

oh well :huh:

[Gaurav]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team Religion eats your brain cells and the logic to think! MP is a good example of a seemingly decent chap but not clever enough to look outside the well he was born in. CC you are making some good points but still seem to have your eyes fully shut to the dark history and clear aims of this fascist religion. We are dealing with a very militant ideology. This is the mindset we are dealing with- "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers..."

[Lurker]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team Couple of posts of top quality there CC :wtg: :wtg: Yes it is hard to ignore the "public" aspect that is associated with Islam. It would be naive of Muslims to think that other citizens of state(and in this case players of other religions) do not get inconvinienced with it. In Mumbai for example often roads get blocked due to Jumme ki Namaaz. Heck this is one of the reasons why Hindu parties get popularity what with starting their own "aarti" etc on auspicious day. So what am I saying? That it is great to be religious but the moment religion comes out in public there is a very good chance that it will disrupt life for others and surely no religion can advocate doing something that shall make others miserable? :shrug: :shrug:

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

To be very frank, i don't like the flaunting aspect of Islam- where it flaunts itself to others as if its in constant competition. Everywhere in the middle east there are huge masjid minarets droning out the Azan calls five times a day. Funny how praying is such an integral part of your religion yet Islam cannot rely on the faith of individuls to flock them to the mosques...it *has* to announce itself with ear-splitting loudspeakers and the whiniest, shrillest voice you can imagine yelling 'Ash hadu an ila...' No other faith does this. For eg, devout Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians have to say prayers nine times a day. Some before daybreak, some during the day, some at night, etc etc. Infact, some of those Catholics only have 5 hours of unbroken time without prayer at any point- meaning they often WAKE UP from sleep, pray and go back to bed! That is more hardcore than muslims and they don't string up loudspeakers at every galli-mohollah reminding their faithfuls to pray.. And even the ones that feel the need to remind its worshippers when its time, they do it discreetly...like with a huge gong sounding the 'hour' or something like that. They don't go reciting their holy prayers with a mike on top of their churches five times a day..

They have their own way of doing it, they have the church bells which can be seen as an "announcment".

The entire team can't pray in the tiny hotel room.

Maybe the team should refer to the verses in the Koran that explicitly states that a human's relationship with God is personal and thus keep it so. Can't they pray individually or do they need some 'neta' every prayer to say out the verses loud so that they can pretend to be in the chorus ? I am not the praying type but personally, if i think this whole 'group prayer' mentality is flawed. Sure, its good to do it once in a while but if i am praying five times a day everyday, i'd like to do my prayer in private. Sticking to a group everytime is a bit of 'jaldi jaldi..koi shuru karo mantra, mein peeche se chaar sabdh bolke bhaagta hoon' mentality. If you feel the need to congreggate for a religious display, do it in a religious institution like a mosque/temple/church etc. or establish a tradition of festivals. You cant just walk into the middle of a sports stadium and start praying to your God en masse. Besides, they always have the dressing room to pray in if their interest was just on praying. But it is not just praying, its praying and advertisement of faith hand in hand.

This is perhaps something which a lot of people don't know,it's encouraged to pray namaz together, so when you have a lot of people who want to pray salat then it makes no sense to pray individually. Yeah you can still pray individually but when it's time for namaz then you should always pray together...now i hope this would clear some of the misconceptions.

[Gaurav]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

That it is great to be religious but the moment religion comes out in public there is a very good chance that it will disrupt life for others and surely no religion can advocate doing something that shall make others miserable? :shrug: :shrug:

You lot are so naive that it's cute :lmao:

[Lurker]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

This is perhaps something which a lot of people don't know,it's encouraged to pray namaz together, so when you have a lot of people who want to pray salat then it makes no sense to pray individually. Yeah you can still pray individually but when it's time for namaz then you should always pray together...now i hope this would clear some of the misconceptions.

MP, Look at it this way. When Pakistani team travels to say West Indies they would give instruction about their meal. I mean obviously West Indies hotels would not give halal meat by default. I am assuming Team Manager or someone from the team asks the Hotel in which Pakistan team stays to make them proper meals. The situation would be the same wherever the Pakistan goes, within or outside Pakistan. Now if that can be arranged how difficult is it to request for a small prayer room, maybe like a conference room or something. Heck they could possibly all fit in a large penthouse type place if need be. This would mean players are together for prayers and we wouldnt be having this discussion here? Is that too much to ask? xxxx

[Mandrake]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team now that Inzy is out and space is not a constraint maybe they can actually fit inside a hotel room :hic:

[CC1981]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

They have their own way of doing it, they have the church bells which can be seen as an "announcment".

The very word 'announcement' indicates that it is an abbreviated, short, display to announce something. Your imams have got the word 'announcement' confused with 'speech'. Reading entire surahs from the Koran, the entire length and breath of the prayer concerned in the loudspeaker is not announcement, its blatant advertisement of faith. Stating the whole prayer on loudspeakers is not an announcement for the prayer. It is announcement of Islam/advertisement of Islam. Which then, is not a prayer call really but an advertisement pamphlet no different from say Jehovah's Witnesses going door to door and annoying people. Atleast in their case, i have to put up with them showing up at my door once every few months and not five times a day standing around with loudspeakers reading from the bible.

This is perhaps something which a lot of people don't know,

It may sound arrogant of me to say this but please please do not do this whole 'this is something people may not know'....you may've noticed that i spelled the Azan call correctly ( or as correct as one can get in English)..i am a non-muslim, i have not been to a mosque in over eight years and i can recite sirat-al-mustaqeem from memory. I mean no disrespect but i've read the Koran from front to back - not only that, back when i came to Canada for the first time and i knew only two dudes (both arabs, one christian leb, one sunni syrian) in the whole country coz they went to highschool with me, i used to talk to these guys a lot and hang out with them a lot...spent hours and hours sometimes discussing the Koran with my Syrian friend. Letting you know this so that in future, you don't assume that because i am not a muslim, i am a duffer about the Koran or Islam. FYI, according to the Koran and Koran alone, prayer can be done perfectly well in private. Group prayers are explicitly called for to mark special occasions- such as Friday, Eid-Al-Fitr, Eid-Al-Adha, tec etc. PS: On a side note: There is a common saying of wisdom-in the Koran,in the Bible,Gita,Tripitaka, hell, all religious book known to mankind : " Do unto others as you'd have done to you". Muslim countries don't even LET others of non-muslim faiths pray in public. Only a few 'muslim-on-paper' countries like UAE,Bahrain,Oman and Qatar allow it apart from Turkey. That is less than 1% of the muslim population worldwide. Yet we non-muslims allow muslims to open mosques and don't give them attitude for bringing in the Koran into the country like most muslim nations do with idols of Krishna. The mark of a faith's civility is not measured by what ideals it espouses or what promises it makes for its followers. The humanity of a faith is demonstrated by its attitude towards non-believers. So how come muslims in non-muslim lands whine about prejudice against them when they are being treated FAR better than non-muslims in muslim lands when it comes to BASIC FREEDOM ? Its not an equal relationship from what i see. If you want to see an equal relationship, where muslim nation's attitude towards non-muslim is matched equally, look no further than China. They treat religion the exact same way muslim nations deal with non-islamic religions: no freedom, all strictly hush-hush and under the table.

[Bumper]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team In all this quagmire of religious discussions u guys have missed the key point Woolmer is upset about. Heck, they hire Woolmer to help them win and pray 5 times a day to win. How insulting is that for a coach :hic: I would be upset if my manager hands over a job to me & then prays 5 times a day infront of me to ensure i deliver on time :hic:

[Lurker]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Heck, they hire Woolmer to help them win and pray 5 times a day to win. How insulting is that for a coach :hic: I would be upset if my manager hands over a job to me & then prays 5 times a day infront of me to ensure i deliver on time :hic:

That might be a stunningly simplistic but at the same time a very meritorious argument. Yes indeed if everything depends on the prayers and good grace of Almighty then why the heck does one need a coach? Money, effort should instead be spent on getting the services of the Holiest of Priest then. xxxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

That it is great to be religious but the moment religion comes out in public there is a very good chance that it will disrupt life for others and surely no religion can advocate doing something that shall make others miserable? :shrug: :shrug:

You lot are so naive that it's cute :lmao:

right word is apologist.. to think otherwise is ur naivette GKD

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Maybe the team should refer to the verses in the Koran that explicitly states that a human's relationship with God is personal and thus keep it so. Can't they pray individually or do they need some 'neta' every prayer to say out the verses loud so that they can pretend to be in the chorus ? I am not the praying type but personally, if i think this whole 'group prayer' mentality is flawed. Sure, its good to do it once in a while but if i am praying five times a day everyday, i'd like to do my prayer in private. Sticking to a group everytime is a bit of 'jaldi jaldi..koi shuru karo mantra, mein peeche se chaar sabdh bolke bhaagta hoon' mentality. If you feel the need to congreggate for a religious display, do it in a religious institution like a mosque/temple/church etc. or establish a tradition of festivals. You cant just walk into the middle of a sports stadium and start praying to your God en masse. Besides, they always have the dressing room to pray in if their interest was just on praying. But it is not just praying, its praying and advertisement of faith hand in hand.

How about this tradition of congregataing anywhere everywhere being a sunna ( for uninitiated ones sunna means deeds of supposedly greatest human being born :lmao: (pardon my laughter) ) emulation of which is supposedly very desirable for spiritually incilned ones... From Aeroplanes walking passage to public library to cricket field to busy roads to parks nothing has been spared. Forget the ridiculousity of the exercise they don't even see how others might be inconvenienced. In Mumbai it took nothing sort of Thackrey to put the point across by equally moronic exercise of blockign the busy roads with aarti procession. We need more thackreys who can show them how it feels when being on receiving side. Again advertisement part is warranted by hadith so they are just being religious if u don't like it's ur problem. PS: I strongly feel these guys need to adhere to this exercise though, it seems to be aiding the cause of other teams at their expense and I am all for it.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Where is this discussion heading to ? Why don't you guys acknowledge the fact that Fatso's Tablighi influence on the team is unwarranted and unnecessary.

Unwarranted for whom? Not for the rest of the teams and their followers for sure. :wtg:

[Gaurav]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

That it is great to be religious but the moment religion comes out in public there is a very good chance that it will disrupt life for others and surely no religion can advocate doing something that shall make others miserable? :shrug: :shrug:

You lot are so naive that it's cute :lmao:

right word is apologist.. to think otherwise is ur naivette GKD

I am with you on that sir.