State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants..

[quasimodo]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants..

Mig before you go preachy on Message board ettiquettes .... how about following your own adivce ? You make blanket statements and conveniently vanish when confronted .. wax away around the bush ... never answer a question directly and you take it upon yourselves to lecture others ?

I dont abuse people - I dont swear at others and I certainly dont put down your religion based on insults... so pls explain what I have done here which is so wrong ? Rest assured that when I can, I will reply to people - those who are willing to listen to reason.

[Dhondy]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. GKD's post was deeply offensive and cannot be condoned under any circummstances. Freedom of expression doesn't give people the right to abuse others' sensibilities. Any repeats will not be tolerated.

[Dhondy]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Coming back to the topic, Lurker has a point. It disappoints me that Premji is being singled out for criticism by Pakistanis because he has failed to do enough for the upliftment of Muslims in India. By all accounts, Premji has done his fair share in taking care of the poor and downtrodden in India, and without discriminating on grounds of race, religion, colour and creed. The poor don't come in a certain colour, shape or size, do they? We can then agree that by virtue of having helped those in penury, Premji is a good human being. Yet, MIG argues that he has failed in his duty as a Muslim by not targeting his benefaction more exclusively towards his co-religionists. Are we to assume then that a good human being and a good Muslim are two different entities? That you can be a very good human being, and yet fail to be a good Muslim? If that is indeed the case, Islam needs to look inwards, deep into its collective conscience and examine where it stands. Is not the most important purpose, nay, the salient reason for the existence of religion to make us into good human beings? Were various religions not created to achieve this very goal? Are we now being told that you can be kind, humane, charitable and forgiving, and yet fail to fulfil some preposterous criteria for "goodness" because you were not selective in who you were kind, humane and charitable towards? Has religion then become a means unto itself, distracted from the very ideals it was created to serve? Has it now become a mere cartel that only rubberstamps virtue when it benefits its own, but not others? It's worrying that even sensible, intelligent and kind Muslims like MIG can't grasp the concept that practicing religion in its truest sense, and being good are one and the same, that they are inseparable, inalienable from each other. Truth be told, you can be good and not be religious. However, it is perfectly possible to be religious and not be a good person. I know which one I'd choose.

[Lurker]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants..

It disappoints me why Premji is being singled out for criticism by Pakistanis because he has failed to do enough for the upliftment of Muslims in India.

Dhondy, Allow me to elaborate the reason behind that. I take it that you have sort of background in Pschycology and that shall perhaps come in handy here. My straight up two bit hard hitting opinion is this - Pakistani Muslims share a weird relationship with their Indian Muslim brothers. This is a huge generic statement but has certainly been my observation. There is far more judgment of an Indian Muslim than say a Kuwaiti one. Maybe because they share the same culture? Maybe because there is a historical bond here? Azim Premji is just a case in point. He is the richest Muslim today in the world. So when was the last time you saw his success celebrated on a Pakistani site? Am I wrong in assuming that if Azim Premji was say from Kuwait he might be considered an icon by a few parosis? No I am not being an envious Indian, or a chauvinistic one, there is just something fundamentally very wrong here. SRK is another case. Most Indians, guys anyway, dislike SRK. He has a lot of fanfollowing amongst girls but most guys, or atleast guys I know, are not big fans. But still I dont see Indians, Hindu or Muslims, degrade him as a person. Sure we all say "he is a bad actor" "hams all the time" yada yada but again it is the parosis who designate him as a "nachne gaane waala" "miraasi" "mujrewaala" and so on. I am not a big fan of SRK but I greatly appreciate him ruling in an industry where u survive only if you have a maai-baap, literally and figuratively. I doubt it was any Indian that defined the term Irfan "fake" Pathan. What suprises me is how easily the success of Muslims around the world are celebrated by our neighbours but not that of Indian muslims. I have a feeling that their dislike for India overrules their fondness for their brethern. Call me cynical but it appears that many Pakistani Muslims, if not most, would much rather want Indian Muslims to fail than to succeed. xxx

[Dhondy]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Sorry, I am not finished yet. I didn't see Pakistanis complain when, in the wake of the Kashmir earthquake, relief came flooding in from all over the world? Those of us who felt devastated by the sights of women and children buried and dying under the rubble, should perhaps have thought of the religion they follow before calling the helpline numbers? After all, if MIG is to believed, the poor, the suffering, the dying should receive succour according to which faith they come from, should they not? To the average Muslim, does the vista of emaciated, scaphoid-stomached, trachoma-ridden, dying children in Africa tug less forcefully at the heart strings than the thought of persecuted Bosnian Muslims or the plight of orphans of executed Chechen rebels, or even the homeless Kashmiri child shivering in the winter chill? If it does, Islam has a big problem. Please tell me that is not the case.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants..

Mig before you go preachy on Message board ettiquettes .... how about following your own adivce ? You make blanket statements and conveniently vanish when confronted .. wax away around the bush ... never answer a question directly and you take it upon yourselves to lecture others ?

It's not just him it's the general disease of socaleld moderates. There is one talk show hoisted by Michael Coren. Yesrterday few similar moderate ones were on the show and in defence of coptic chrstians being raped kileld beheaded in Egypt their response was look unfair treatment is everywhere. USA?Canada has disallowed AlJazeera. At this juncture Coren just went ballistic exaclaiming sir no sane person in right mind will compare a low-key genocide to al-jazeera being banned. Then those two gentlemen change the subject with the usual dilly-dallying.These moderate gentleman have gall to complain about al-jazeera I am certain they are fully aware of that fact about public TV not allowing religious preaching for other religions in islamic cornucopia. He didn't volunteer that information these things are to be kept in wraps as long as you can meanwhile you can go ballistic over every perceived imagined bias existing in west. Heck no country in its right mind will allow al jazeera given it gives voice to individuals who claim jews are sons and daughter of pigs and apes and also host those who call for annihilation of israel. I am not talking about just anybody even people with oppe like personalitty in mid east like Qardhavi use these pig ape similes in their speech on public TV. If anyone has doubt let me know I will procure you every damn clip from memri. Or u can check ti urself on memritv.org

[Dhondy]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Lurker, you make some very convincing points, and in essence, I agree with all of them. It seems to me to be an absolute travesty that Indian Muslims are derided as being "meek", "secular" and some kind of doormats for living in peace with the so called non-believers. The refrain seems be, why are they not more pro-active, more pious, more strident in practicing their faith? If they were true followers, surely they would create some kind of commotion, fight back, issue statements against the VHP every other day. Or perhaps, simply die for their calling in large numbers, as they do in Iraq and Afghanistan? In such a scenario, no wonder what little they achieve is brushed under the carpet with utter disdain. In secular, peace loving India, success, any success, achieved by Muslims is extremely inconvenient in the Islamic State of Pakistan's scheme of things, as it shows that you can succeed outside a rigid Islamic way of life.

[kabira]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. isnt Azim Premji Ahmediya?? i.e Shia.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. There is a saying God helps those who help themselves. Those who claim to be the only true repository of God's command would be better adviced to look within thesmlesv for their problem. Had it been just India specific problem I would have bought the merit of bias btu since this is the common themee all around the world then scientific method of deductions from this data forces me to look into the common theme. In britain out of all imigrant population muslim are the the lowest socio/econmic ladder. Same holds true for france. In fact any country where they have not institutionalized bias in muslim populations favour they are lagging in the equal opportunity race. In countries like Malaysia they are lagging even after institutionalized bais in their favour. Chinese/indian origin majority hindu/chrstian/buddhist population are doing much better than the local bhumiputra muslims in every walk of life despite the fact that latter gets preferential treatment. Same is the case in Norway. Ditto in sweden Ditto in Holland. Same is the case in India. Little perusal of historyr might hel clear the fog specific to India viz a viz the underlying reason behind the morass these folks find themselves in. In North India off and on for thousand years there has been muslim dominance. It is in record in writings of court-writers of these muslim rulers, ( I am not talking abotu dozen a dime historians views here) that muslim got preferential treatement for being the co-religionsit of the ruler. Mansabdari system saw the advent of many muslim jameendars and existing non-muslim jameendars well in order to save their land became muslim in droves. Then there was no fear of brutal armies coming to spoil ur religious places spoil ur religious festivity for the muslim populace so theyc ould go about living their life as they please. There was no such luck for non-muslims. Go visit mysore region there are still villages which do not celebrate Dipawali due to Tipu Sultan's (So much feted secular muslim :-) ) army's singling out this very day for butchery. I can go on and on everything taken from the writing of muslim court-writers themselves so there is hardly any room for doubt. In fact rich people in order to hang on to their riches succumbed earlier than the poor folks and converted. Testimony to this fact is the caste demography of 1% hindus still left in pakistan. They are mostly lowest caste bheel and other tribals. Rich have long resigned and go by names like Tariq And Quasim. Actually one of our family friend here in canada Gupta uncle's own younger brother goes by name Tariq Rehman lives in karachi has huge business well he got share of everyone when gupta uncle's father and his other brothers left the country in 47. Heck I am meandering here. let us come to the point Well some spindoctors create doubt by saying that there was tendency of over-reporting the atrocity in the writings. Quite astute way of explainin g things away but these folks forgot that this claim paints more gruesome picture of those they are trying to defend. I mean what kind of mentality goads one to over-report incidents of butchery. Isn't this sick. Anyway my point is for thousand years under muslim rulers' strong hand they got preferential treatment then came the british and in a bid to puncture the independence movement again theywere receipients of preferential treatment. Now let us come to after independence scenario. India chose to be secular so no room for institutinalized bias. Infact no person can claim that he/she was not given entry into some esteemed institutiton despite clearing the entrance requirements just because he/she was muslim or chrstian. yes preferential treatement happens at lower level in fact lower ranked the job more the nepotism and this is not for muslims only it's for everybody. GO to AMU 70+% faculty you will find is muslim. I rest my case. Another school of thought is that politicians exploit muslims. I say politicians are cynics they like to exploit everybody and have no selective preference when it comes to exploiting matters. In this backdrop if u get more exploited than the rest then who is to blame you or the rest of the gentry. Then comes the small matter of clarion call given by muslim leaders at the time of independence to leave the mainstream school in mass and join medersah in order to preserve their faith. Fine study in medersaha but let govt make soem changes in curriculum which might make you employable but no even that is not ON. What anyone can do in this backdrop. Not much I am afraid. There is reservation for lower caste muslims under mandal commission but to avail even that you will have to go beyond medersah education and I am afraid that's not happening anytime soon. To summarize everybody accepts there is problem but jury is out on who created the problem. A quick perusal of history says they are themselves to blame but then again liberal might fly their own kite on this count. But the bottomline is there is solution too but the community concerned has to be receptive towards the solution. This constant sulking and whining is not going to change anything. It's time to see the light, leave the victim mentality aside and drink the bitter potion of medersaha-reforms. Till this happens good luck with sulking/whining cycle. PS: SC/ST and few of OBC groups have case when they demand reservation because they have faced the brunt of discrimination for millenium muslims otoh have enjoyed preferential treatment hence have no case for the same.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants..

SRK is another case. Most Indians, guys anyway, dislike SRK. He has a lot of fanfollowing amongst girls but most guys, or atleast guys I know, are not big fans. But still I dont see Indians, Hindu or Muslims, degrade him as a person. Sure we all say "he is a bad actor" "hams all the time" yada yada but again it is the parosis who designate him as a "nachne gaane waala" "miraasi" "mujrewaala" and so on. I am not a big fan of SRK but I greatly appreciate him ruling in an industry where u survive only if you have a maai-baap, literally and figuratively.

What irks non- resident-pakistani parosi (base on what i see on pee pee) is that he has not yet converted his hindu wife. Trust me this moderate gentleman we have from other forum contributes to this kind of debate with gutso. Another complain they have is that Shahrukh claims to have keep Quran and Geeta together in his pooja room along with pictures of deities. :-)

[Gaurav]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants..

You and your F@kin misunderstanding of Islam! What is there to misunderstand about (edit:GKD please don't use such language about a religious icon in future. Thanks -Gambit)

I was stating facts based on multiple sources that muslims themselves regard as holy. If people cut the PC crap about "religious icons" then there would be less Al-Taqiyya tactics used by "religion of peace"! :chin: It's your forum so feel free to edit my posts as I don't know which exact part was so offensive :-)

[Bumper]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. GKD, I think u have the right to know why ur post was edited. We have several resident Muslim posters actively posting here (Aqua, Sooda, quasimodo etc. to name a few). While debating religious issues in a civil & logical manner is allowed, casting abuses on what Muslims would consider holy (knowing well it would hurt them) cannot go unchallenged. Imagine, if they were to retaliate & start cussing at Hindu Gods or beliefs, how would u feel ? If we let this go on, soon this place will be filled with abusive tirades, from both sides. If u want to know what is an acceptable level of religious debate, scan thru some of the threads on the Cricket Forum & The General Discussions (usually all these threads are 50+ hitters). The moderation is fairly laid back here & we usually dont resort to this, unless blatant abuse is involved. I hope u see the point and not indulge in such abuses, in the future. Thank you!

[Gaurav]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Point taken :wtg:

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants..

MIG ... In the spirit of Debating Etiquettes is there any chance of a reply from you regarding the issue of minority treatment in India ? In particular please reply to my 12:25 AM post made on Tuesday ?

Good luck :lmao: