Vegetarians?

[gator]

Re: Vegetarians? good points, Vedic.... The basic premise of following thee Vedic texts is seeing God in every creature and creation.... A cow, dog all have souls and life... If one can sustain on fruits and vegetables, dairy and grains, one simply doesnt have the right to kill another creature.... let me give an analogy.... i would like everyone to answer tht... please... suppose i have a pet dog... i nourish it, feed it, love it and take care of it.. suppose someone comes to my home, kills it and eats it.... will i keep quiet? why not??? similarly, every creature is God's pet.... he nourishes them, feeds them, loves them all.... we friggin have no right killing them and eating them.... it is simply hypocritical for people to refrain from killing dogs, but eating cows... though people in the far-east do eat them....

[Lurker]

Re: Vegetarians?

lol Lurker.... u got to get ur definition of healthy straight..... i eat meat, and bench 250 lbs and a workout freak.... but i am not HEALTHY, compared to the rest of my family.... strength is not health... ur IT friend is right.... muscle Ts, and all tht is not life... i agree, i do all tht, but old enuf to realise, tht is not a big deal... i dont know how old u r, but i guess ur view of health will change.... one more thing, my dad never used to touch even eggs and he looked every inch solid with decent bulk.... u r fooling urself by equating killing plants to killing animals... then, murder to u is as simple as plucking a fruit...

Gator, You still have not answered my question(apologies if I have missed it) about how I should get 400-600 calories of protein everyday from a veggie diet. Coming to my conception of health, that is what is true for most countries around the world...except India. Take for example a Western country, from USA to Brazil, Spain to Australia, do you think an Indian youth is as healthy as they are? Of course it is a huge generalization but give it a thought. I know they are not. As for the t-shirts and stuff. That philosphy doesnt bother me. All powers to you if you think there is more to life than being well-built but I would personally like to be in good shape rather than mouth excuses, or philosphies, depends how you take it really. Coming to the last comment about "killing plants same as killing animals" you did not tell me why they are not the same. Instead you choose to suggest it is "foolhardy" notion. May I know why? Why are plants not considered living organism while Animals are? Good on you that you bench 250. Try doing that on year-long diet sans meat and see how the bench drops. On an aside note benchpress was never my favorite chest exercise. I prefer dumbbells, gives me better stretch and I do not need a spotting partner. Best is 100 pounds dumbell(each hands) for 6 reps(I do not go under 6 reps). Favorite exercise - deadlift. Maybe we should start another exercise thread sometime. xxx

[gator]

Re: Vegetarians? look at the last line, where i told u, murder is akin to plucking a fruit according to u...

[gator]

Re: Vegetarians?

Good on you that you bench 250. Try doing that on year-long diet sans meat and see how the bench drops.

i am going to quit meat very soon.... i will let u know, after i quit... but if i have to speculate, it will not make any huge difference... if u r not into bodybuilding, it is adequate if u take 2/3 of ur weight in pounds in grams of protein.... so for an average adult, it will be something 100-120gms of protein... a whey protein shake can contain around 30-50 gms depending on the brand... a nice glass of milk can contain 14-20 gms.... a cup of yogurt hasbetween 6-8 gms..... 2 eggs can contain around 12-15 gms.... a cup of dal or sprouts can contain around 8-10 gms.... rice can contain around 4-5 gms.... morning oats for breakfast can get u a nice 5-10 gms of protein... why dont u follow this for a while, it will clean ur body and spirit and still keep u bulky in a clean way....

[Lurker]

Re: Vegetarians?

a whey protein shake can contain around 30-50 gms depending on the brand... a nice glass of milk can contain 14-20 gms.... a cup of yogurt hasbetween 6-8 gms..... 2 eggs can contain around 12-15 gms.... a cup of dal or sprouts can contain around 8-10 gms.... rice can contain around 4-5 gms.... morning oats for breakfast can get u a nice 5-10 gms of protein...

See now we are going in detail instead of just saying things in plain air. I like it. Alright so lets get started Gator bhao. Whey protein shake - 30 to 50 gm protein. Agreed. NO arguments. Glass of milk - 16-20 gms of proteins. Disagree. If you take regular milk you will get 8 calories out of total 180 calories or so. You will have to have 2 glass of milk to get 16 calories, which means 360 calories in total. Here is the biggie(you perhaps know this already). 1 gm of protein releases 4 calories. In other words you are getting only 16*4 - 20*4 = 64-80 calories of proteins and for that you are consuming an extra 280-300 calories of carbs and fats. Not recommended(by me). If you take fat free milk you would get 8 gm proteins in 110 calories. Please feel free to check the back of your milk carton. A cup of yogurt has 6-8 grms. Agreed but same issue as milk. You get 6-8 gm proteins in 110(fat free) to 170(natural) yogurt. A cup of daal gives 8 gm proteins - Agreed. But two problems here. Number 1, a cup of raw daal will give you 8 grm proteins. If you boil and make it that will become 4-5 cups(unless you make it thick) and I can only imagine how one can drink 4-5 cups of daal. That coupled with the fact that for 8 grm protein you are again consuming 120-150 calories. Not recommended. Rice 4-5 grms. Agreed. But for that you have to bear the fact that you will get 200-300 calories from carbs and fats(depending on brown rice or basmati) Oats 5-10 grm protein. Agreed but they will give you 200-300 grm of carbs depending on how enriched they are. Not recommended. Eggs - 15-16 grms proteins. Agreed and recommended. So lets now roll your meny Gator(do tell if I am going wrong anywhere). Subject Protein(gms) Calories Whey protein 40 250 Milk 8(per serving)*2= 16 150* 2 = 300 Yogurt 8(per serving) *2= 16 150 *2 = 300 Eggs 8(per egg) *4 = 28 70*4 = 280 Daal 8(per serving) =8*2=16 125*2 = 250 Rice 4(per serving)= 4*3=12 250*3= 750 Oats 5(per serving) 200 So based on your menu we have a total of 128 gms of proteins out of a total calorific value of 2330 calories. You have gone up by 300 calories(standard 2000 calories barometer) Do bear in mind that you have not yet considered the calories that will come from oil(cooking), vegetables and so on. Just a couple of spoonful of oil will send your daily calorie over 3000(1.5 times the recommended value of 2000 cals a day). If you look above the only two good source of protein are - Whey protein( a supplement) and egg(a non-veg). Take them out and your protein content falls by half. Plus noone, and I mean absolutely noone, drinks 2 cup of raw daal(makes about 6-8 cups when done) everyday. Not to mention that not many Indians(specially veggie Indians) drink whey protein as supplement? By the way if you are working out the recommendation is 1-1.5 gms of protein. In other words if I weight 200 pounds, I need about 200-300 gms of protein(250 should be decent and ideal). Feel free to suggest where I might have gone wrong. xxxxx

[gator]

Re: Vegetarians? dude.... tht was a sample menu... tht was not the one i am asking u to eat... u can always substitute a cup of dal to half, and eat an extra egg...

Glass of milk - 16-20 gms of proteins. Disagree. If you take regular milk you will get 8 calories out of total 180 calories or so. You will have to have 2 glass of milk to get 16 calories, which means 360 calories in total.

i am assuming, u mean 8 gms..... but u got to read carefully, bro.... the carton will say in terms of cups, while i said a GLASS, which is how most peoople drink their milk...

Not to mention that not many Indians(specially veggie Indians) drink whey protein as supplement?

dont know which village u from??? but in cities, whey supplements and creatine are all over the place, i heard....

By the way if you are working out the recommendation is 1-1.5 gms of protein. In other words if I weight 200 pounds, I need about 200-300 gms of protein(250 should be decent and ideal).

u again going back to bodybuilding.com man... then have 2-3 whey shakes a day, u will get almost 170-220 gms of protein... tht should be more than enuf..... normal people can drink once.... all i am saying is, there are 10000 excuses to kill an animal, but only one excuse not to...."WE DONT HAVE THE RIGHT" Now I have answered ur questions, why dont u answer my question... suppose i have a pet dog... i nourish it, feed it, love it and take care of it.. suppose someone comes to my home, kills it and eats it.... will i keep quiet? why not??? similarly, every creature is God's pet.... he nourishes them, feeds them, loves them all.... we friggin have no right killing them and eating them....

[yoda]

Re: Vegetarians? Interesting quote from another site:

If you think it's natural for humans to eat meat, put a three-year-old toddler in a crib with an apple and a live chicken and watch which one he eats and which one he plays with. If you give the same apple and chicken to a young cat of equivalent maturity, it will play with the apple and eagerly kill and eat the chicken, all by itself!

[gator]

Re: Vegetarians? lovely.... explains it all... thanks Yoda for sharing tht.... couldnt have put it better....

[shailesh]

Re: Vegetarians?

[Lurker]

Re: Vegetarians? Gator saab. Sorry to say but that post did not make for any meaningful reading. I thought you were serious in discussing this but seems you have already made up your mind. Koi nahin I shall try one more time. And this time I shall keep it short and sweet for you, so that there is no ambiguity. Q) Break down a 2000 calorie diet for an Indian vegetarian. This time give me a 4 meal everyday breakdown so that there is no ambiguity. The only constraint is that a diet should have 50% carbs, 30% proteins, 20% fats. In other words a 2000 calorie diet should have 600 from protein. This is about an average adult male weighing about 175 pounds. There, lets nail this one. No sly comments, no gimmick..give me some clear cut answers.

suppose i have a pet dog... i nourish it, feed it, love it and take care of it.. suppose someone comes to my home, kills it and eats it.... will i keep quiet?

I am not quite sure of this comment really. To be honest it is more rhetorical than anything else. How does it tie in to our discussion here? Maybe you can extrapolate a little bit? By the way you do realize that in many cultures there is this tradition of rearing a goat or chicken, feeding it for a while and then killing it as a form of sacrifice. Now you wont agree to it but clearly this becomes a cultural thing. Moral of the story - What you eat may not be related to proteins and carbs, it has more to do with your way of life and I would not spend my time arguining on that front. My position is rather simple - show me a veggie diet that can give you complete food. I do not quite think I have received that answer so far..maybe this would be my lucky time. xxxx

[shailesh]

Re: Vegetarians? don't mean to interrupt this healthy discussion, but I'd like to post my thought on one particular (and a very common) argument:

Coming to the last comment about "killing plants same as killing animals" you did not tell me why they are not the same. Why are plants not considered living organism while Animals are?

Let's take a simple example of someone plucking a fruit from a plant and eating it as compared to someone plucking a chicken's legs and eating it. If you consider the result of these actions - the plant will continue to live it's life and keep producing more fruit to satisfy someones hunger, so no life lost there and still nature's purpose for the plant will continue to be served. as in case of the chicken - obviously it will be dead, a life lost forever, nature's creation destroyed. So it should be clear why plants can not be considered same as as animals. Both are living, yes, but there is a difference in the life form I'd say. over to you gents. :wtg:

[gator]

Re: Vegetarians? Shailesh, i had answered this question before.... But Lurker simply does not have an eye for an answer.... i told him, if plucking a fruit is equal to killing an animal, murder does not mean anything to him... Secondly, i give him a veggie diet in gms of protein, but he needs it in terms of calories... he is making it look as if everyone's life cycle will be reduced by half, if those numbers dont exactly match... Googling and searching on bodybuilding.com can give anyone the percentage of carbs, fats, protein and all tht.... but i really doubt how accurately u follow tht... Lurker, my question was a genuine question and not a rhetorical.... i asked it before u asked me....and i request u to answer tht first.... it is a very straight-forward question and situational.... u dont need to give me the example of a tribal sacrifice.... jus tell me, how u will feel....

[Predator_05]

Re: Vegetarians?

If you think it's natural for humans to eat meat' date=' put a three-year-old toddler in a crib with an apple and a live chicken and watch which one he eats and which one he plays with. If you give the same apple and chicken to a young cat of equivalent maturity, it will play with the apple and eagerly kill and eat the chicken, all by itself![/quote'] Are you saying that meat-eaters are pussies ?

suppose i have a pet dog... i nourish it, feed it, love it and take care of it.. suppose someone comes to my home, kills it and eats it.... will i keep quiet? why not??? similarly, every creature is God's pet.... he nourishes them, feeds them, loves them all.... we friggin have no right killing them and eating them....

Word of advice for you, m8. Don't EVER, EVER, EVER, go to Korea, Thailand or Vietnam. They eat anything that has got a pulse. --- PS; i tried dog meat once (at a proper Korean restaurant on one of my holidays) and it was quite nice. A bit chewy, but quite succulent nonetheless... :wtg:

[Vedic_Kshatriya]

Re: Vegetarians? Yeah meat eaters are the pussies. To pussy to go on a vegetarian diet. (I can say this i was a former meat eater :D) If you want to see examples of vegetarian/vegan body building. Then go to www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com Most of these guys are on a lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet. Its easier to bulk up on this than a vegan....vegans have alot more difficulty.

[Vedic_Kshatriya]

Re: Vegetarians? Oh on that note, body builders are freaks with mental problems....they feel the need to constantly get bigger. Most of these guys are unfit, and would get knocked out cold in a fight.

[shailesh]

Re: Vegetarians? well people having doubt can google on - "vegetarian" "protein" "myths" there are plenty of resources :shrug: like this http://www.savvyvegetarian.com/articles/protein-veg-diet.php

[Lurker]

Re: Vegetarians?

Let's take a simple example of someone plucking a fruit from a plant and eating it as compared to someone plucking a chicken's legs and eating it.

Shailesh(and Gator), That would make for a decent analogy if, and only if, the diet of veggies was made of fruits only. If you consider a vegetarian diet based on fruits only then all powers to you for thinking that way but in reality is it so? The reality is a vegetarian thrives on grains, vegetables and so on much more than a fruit. And how do you get them my friend? Sorry you dont "pluck" a wheat, you pretty much exterminate the plant. Same with vegetables. You dont "pluck" a potato a la mango. You take away the root and the next year you shall grow a different crop altogether. How is that different from rearing animals and killing them for food? Again lets keep philosphy out of this since it is hard to argue against moral values. xxxx

[Lurker]

Re: Vegetarians?

Secondly, i give him a veggie diet in gms of protein, but he needs it in terms of calories... he is making it look as if everyone's life cycle will be reduced by half, if those numbers dont exactly match... Lurker, my question was a genuine question and not a rhetorical.... i asked it before u asked me....and i request u to answer tht first.... it is a very straight-forward question and situational.... u dont need to give me the example of a tribal sacrifice.... jus tell me, how u will feel....

Firstly Gator that is uncalled for. I am asking you a simple question. Give me a healthy diet of a vegetarian and prove me that it is not lacking in anything as compared to a non-vegetarian diet. Now if you can not answer that, or do not want to answer that, tell me directly and not hop around. If you are so sure about veggie diet whats stopping? One more time. Give me a 2000 calorie diet for a healthy vegetarian with 150 gm proteins. As they say, put up or ..... As for your question like I mentioned before, I need to understand it correctly before I loudmouth an answer. Do me a favour and extrapolate about the conception of pet. Maybe I am missing something but it just did not make sense in the context of the subject. xxx

[Lurker]

Re: Vegetarians?

Yeah meat eaters are the pussies. To pussy to go on a vegetarian diet. (I can say this i was a former meat eater :D) If you want to see examples of vegetarian/vegan body building. Then go to www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com Most of these guys are on a lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet. Its easier to bulk up on this than a vegan....vegans have alot more difficulty.

First of all I am not sure whom you are calling a pussy. I for one have certainly not used that word. If you are getting defensive for nothing then thats not my fault. As for the website did you even check that out? Or just threw a link? Here are the recommended diet for a vegetarian rich in protein. Name Qty Protein Egg White from 1 egg 4 Yves Veggie Back Bacon 2 slices 10 Yves Veggie Deli Slice 2 slices 7.5 Yves Veggie Hot Dog 1 dog 11 Yves Veggie Ground Round 1/3 C. 12 Breakfast Links 2 links 12 Yves Pepperoni Slices 2 slices 8.5 Yves Burger Burgers 1 burger 18 Yves Veggie Turkey Slice 2 slices 8 Yves Veggie Ham Slice 2 slices 7 Boca Burger 1 burger 13 Cott Cheese 1/2 C 15 Super Soy Burger-Soy City 1 burger 25 Second Nature Burger 1 burger 15 Lightburger 1 burger 16 Soy Cheese 1 slice 4 Tempeh 113 g (1/4 pkg) 11 Tofu-La Soyarie 1/4 pkg 113.5 g 12 Green Chef Burger 1 burger 13.8 Veg Cutlet 1 cutlet 14 Veg Cutlet w/Spinach Zoglo's 1 cutlet 14 La Soyarie Nutburger 1 burger 9.6 Cheddar Cheese 1 oz. 7.1 Green Chef Cutlet 1 cutlet 8.4 Veg Pate (Fontaine Sante) 55 g (1/4 pkg) 5.8 Pray do tell how many Indians eat anything of that?? Even those that live in the West? Moral of the story - go back and get me a protein rich diet in Indian food habits. And don't call yourself pussies, I for one would not. xxxxx

[Vedic_Kshatriya]

Re: Vegetarians? Dont have to eat any of that shite........... its just giving examples. The fact is, there is a vegetarian body builder forum with a lot of people sucessful in bodybuilding. Just proving that meat is not required. :)