70 jawans killed in biggest Maoists/Naxal attack ever in India

[patriot]

The BJP govt did not have a majority and Advani never had a free reign as Vajpayee ran the show. The very fact that someone like Advani had to mellow down tells you the extent to which pseudo-secularism has entrenched itself in India. The same thing will happen to Modi too.

You obviously know very little and never bother reading the posts carefully. When you have 120 million muslims in the country and another 150 million " lower" castes among the Hindu majority , playing bull headed right wing Hindu politics will not add up to much isn't it ? Please suggest your Plan A and B that you were alluding to of tackling the " menace " of 270 million Indians.

[patriot]

The BJP govt did not have a majority and Advani never had a free reign as Vajpayee ran the show. The very fact that someone like Advani had to mellow down tells you the extent to which pseudo-secularism has entrenched itself in India. The same thing will happen to Modi too.

Tch tch...Vajpayee ran the show indeed. But did he have a different agenda than Advani ? Or he only started expressing that agenda in more muted tones ? So come again...what is the " Plan A" and " Plan B" of tackling the menace of 270 million Indians ? COvkg6S9j90

[patriot]

Patriot, you dont need to respond to my posts or continue the discussion anyfurther if you think I know nothing ... I am not here to impress you or anybody with my gyaan on Indian politics .... something that I really dont give a flying *** about anymore. However if you want a discussion you will need to keep out the silly innuendos .. insults and the eventual insults that will follow.

Bossbhai - Please don't digress . You only give I know it all OPINIONS without any reasoning or rationale - that is hardly a " discussion" . You need to start giving some reasonings and get your facts right. So now I ask for the 3rd time..what is the Plan A and Plan B to tackle the menace of 270 million Indians living in the country. ( Muslims + Lower castes).

[patriot]

Not digressing ... just trying to save some time for both of us and to nip the obvious mudslinging before it gets out of control. Not interested in that as I have told you many times before. As regards to the reasoning and rationale exercise .... I have done this many many times before ... the point is people here dont like to face the icky truths. They would rather shout me down and shut me up instead of dealing with reality. Path of least resistance and all that... A couple of old threads as a sample .... http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=132734 http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=132118 Dont know why you are clubbing the 2 groups but there are no easy solutions. First requirement of finding a solutions is to acknowledge that there is a problem and be dilligent enough to go to the absolute botton of the cause. You cant find a solution without knowing the cause. Bit you can tell we are in deep sh!t when very very well educated posters here start hurling insults in response to posts where some of the root causes for the Hindu-Muslim menace is laid threadbare. The amount of brainwashing that our populace has undergone is simply mindbogling ... let me know if you want examples of the extent of this brainwashing.

As usual you always try to divert the pressure when cornered by a question and yet again you provide no reasoning. You spoke about GOI not having " Plan A" and " Plan B" of tackling Islamic terror. I am asking you for the 4th time what is Plan A and Plan B to tackling the " menace " of 120 million Indian muslims and 150 million people along the red corridor ( Naxalwadis) If you are not going to answer above that you had been cribbing about, let us not debate further, because you continue to endlessly evade questions on issues you crib about.

[patriot]

And speaking of Islam ...even as of today we dont have a Plan A to counter the threat of Islam. Our plan is to keep it well fed and just hope that if we pretend that its a cudly cute harmless barbie doll it will end up like that one fine day.

Plan A ( Plan Zero if you want to call it that ) is to know the root cause of the problem we are facing and have consensus about it. Once the root cause is known a solution will present itself. Without that its just chaos and will be like the story where 5 blind people are asked to identify a elephant based on touch. Do you think even the well educated net savvy and well read public in this forum (Never mind the normal janta on the street) is aware of the root cause of the problem ? I dont think so and I have reasons to believe so and if you take the time read those threads (and few more if you want) it tells you how ***ed up we are.

So you are alluding to the root cause of the threat of Islam in India , like you mention in post 82? Is that the best you could come up with as a " Plan A" which you is finding out the " root cause " ? Even a rickshawallah in Bombay or Delhi or a rice farmer in Guntur knows the root cause is Pakistan trying influence and misguide the unemployed and poor Muslim youth in India with the aim of destabilizing India. I expected you to come up with a solution Plan A.

[patriot]

It is not Pakistan ... Pakistan is a manifestation of the problem ... because the problem existed way before Pakistan existed. I mentioned this before too. If we do not come to terms with these harsh realities there aint going to be any solution in the next 100 yrs.

Amusing. So you don't want to live in the present but want to trace the " roots " of the problem back to the days of the Ghaznavis and Baburs ? Are you seriously suggesting this ? And you want an Indian society where modern day Hindus breed in quasi Hindu " madrassas " ? You know where such an idiotic approach has landed the Islamic world innint ?

[patriot]

I would love to live in the present ... but Iam afraid you will find that that choice is no-longer with you or me ... ofcourse we can pretend that everything was hunky dory X yrs ago ... but you are only cheating yourself if you want to go down that route. Reality is there exists no true secular working democracy anywhere in the world with a large % of Muslim population. The concept of live and let live simply does not exist in their lexicon.

You have no choice but to live in the present, whether you like it or not. Assuming, that your final statement is absolutely true - The reality is there are 120 million muslims today in India and have been since independence. So, what is your plan A to deal with their " menace " ?

[patriot]

Thats not an assumption. Thats a fact. People like to throw names like Malaysia and Turkey but thats again the typical clutching at straws approach ... desperately trying to cling on to some hope. Truth is something different.

That is as bigoted and senile a " fact " as they come. As senile as saying that most American blacks are thugs, druggies and ruffians. You may have a personal dislike to their way of life like most Hindus including myself have to the typical Islamic way of life. American whites by and large are still implicitly racist towards African Americans, just like Hindus in India are towards Muslims. Both Blacks and Muslims are such a high proportion of minorities ( 12 -14 %) in USA and India respectively and there is no other option but to assimilate them into the system or create a recipe for a mammoth civil disaster. The roots of both their " nuisances " are poverty,backwardness, unemployment and cultural attitude - and the only option is continuous social upliftment.

And as far as the solution to the menace is concerned I had answered this in one those threads I linked .... essentially we have 3 choices : 1. Count the dead whinge a bit and evacuate as and when things heat up in your neighbourhood ( i.e the current state of affairs being practiced since 800AD most recent episode happned with the KPs) 2. Take the plunge and jump the fence to the other side. ( another popular option ) 3. Try and re-convert them to any of the dharmic faiths as Swami Vivekananda had first proposed .... and this is where things like intestinal fortitude, clear vision and unterstanding of the problem and the will to not cheat your own self/country come in.

As usual you are all hot air and no substance. If Muslims were to be deported the Gandhis and Nehru should have asked ALL of them to leave India for Pakistan or face discrimination in a Hindu nationalist India. I wish the clock could be turned back and that were possible. I too detest the average Muslim but don't have a tunnel vision like you that is a recipe for disaster. Thank god people of your mentality are not ruling the country. And the reality of the matter is 50 % of the subcontinent's Muslims them chose to stay in secular India by choice and are 14 % of India's population. Any silly suggestion like "reconverting 150 million Muslims" in this day and age as a matter of state policy or covert operation will only cause a massive civil war within India and make the millions and millions of Indians working in Muslim countries in the middle east , Africa and Asia pacific, targets. Even a superpower like America, far and away from the Islamic world would not be able to afford it, let alone a geographically massively disadvantaged India. Any country that wages a war against 15 % of it's own population doesn't need an external enemy, it would be digging it's own grave. The solution to this requires mental fortitude not your pet word " intestinal fortitude ". The solution lies in making them assets, social upliftment, education and employment. It makes sense to have a very aggressive foreign policy regarding national security , forming alliances to proxy wage external enemies in the neighborhood and curbing and stifling the Muslim population growth in India under the guise of national population growth control act. I am against reverse discrimination and pseudo secularism but those are the biproducts of having a flawed democratic system .

[patriot]

wrong anology ... Most Islamic states are autocratic and thats is a fact.

This is why people abhor debating with you. Because you seldom know what you yourself are talking. We are talking about Muslims in India and dealing with their ' menace' similar to the menace of ' blacks ' in USA, where does this bring in Islamic states ? Or are these ploys meant to annoy ?

You keep saying this without providing anything to backup your claim are you saying that those 3 things that I listed are factually wrong ? If yes pls elaborate.

When you come up with bigoted and unfeasible views like converting 150 million muslims, i don't know what is factual about such a senile " fact".

Is that why 90% of them voted for Jinnah ? This is the sort of half-truth spread thru repeated lies is what that has contributed to the current situation.

90 % of whom ? Who voted ? Is this a fair assessment ? If 90 % of those voted, why did 50 % stay back in secular but 85 % Hindu India ? You think the leaders we have in India today are representative of what 90 % of India's educated want ? But they have still been voted in right ? You need to live in reality of India's current socioeconomic and most importantly geopolitical position and come out of your tunnel vision, else you will continue making bigoted assumptions and wishing for the most impractical things. If there was a supervisor monitoring your various " debates " , you would be not only be declared a loser very early but also be disqualified from further debates because of your habits.

[patriot]

Blacks in US have not driven out some other ethnic group or race from any pocket or state in North America. Islam on the other hand has been doing that for ages all over the world. Do you deny this ? No offence but you know very little about history .... which explains your need to hurl insults and putdowns thinking that it will act as a substitute. Yaar atleast understand what the definition of debate is and things like ad-hominem before using such big words. Neither do you have the patience to debate nor the willingness to listen to a opposing viewpoint without resorting to silly diatribes and innuendos. But not to worry you will blend in perfectly well with the crowd here. Good luck.

Yet again you give a senseless historical perspective ( such is also the modus operandi of Zaid Hamid), that has no practical relevance in today's " menace of Islam in India " and then you cry fowl that others are " hurling insults " . The fact of the matter is India , since it's inception in 1947 has had 50 % of the subcontinents muslims who chose to call it home in a 85 %Hindu majority country , when they had the option of living in Islamic Pakistan. So for the billionth time ( high time you avoid going back to 1000 year old history and start living in reality ) , given the situation that 150 million Muslims are Indians , what is your feasible action plan of dealing with this " menace " ? I rebutted your bizarre " Plan" of converting them with cause, effect and solution in post 106. If you have logical and feasible rebuttals to that, please let me know without going back 1000 years.

[patriot]

What senseless ? Is the fact that the entire KP population got evicted by these same Muslims (who you are saying chose to live in India and are Indians and that we are supposed to live with them ) a figment of my imagination ? Isnt this the same thing that used to happen in medievial times ?

You talk utter falsehood and then you say people don't have the patience and hurl abuses. Those muslims were not muslims of other parts of India but of militants in the Kashmir valley that had been infested by Pak infiltrated militants and tribals since independence. We need to be tactical and militarily shrewd and ruthless against pakistan, not indian muslims who are our own people. For that if you attack and kill a harmless and patriotic muslim of India in Lucknow and Hyderabad you are only fanning communal flames by trying to make the majority Indian muslim population hate the Indian federation - and falling into Pakistan's trap, which we have quiet often. Pitting the Indian muslims against Pakistan and making them national assets is the thing that requires mental fortitude on part of the Govt. Going senseless hammer and tongs, going back to 1000 year old history and attacking and oppressing 15 % of your own people in such a complex geo political setting risking utter destruction and chaos probably requires a lot of your favorite " intestinal fortitude " . But since you have nothing substantia to say apart from usual unfeasible rants, lets cut this " debate " .

[Arkem8]

You talk utter falsehood and then you say people don't have the patience and hurl abuses. For that if you attack and kill a harmless and patriotic muslim of India in Lucknow and Hyderabad you are only fanning communal flames by trying to make the majority Indian muslim population hate the Indian federation - and falling into Pakistan's trap, which we have quiet often.

LOL Please don't go about flaunting your ignorance. The largest islamist Paki-loving populations come from those areas. Most of the people who formulated the two-nation theory and then migrated to Pakistan came from those two regions. Please read up on pre-partition riots in U.P and Hyderabad. After the Kashmiri Islamofacist scum these two regions produce the next best "grapes". Another typical blind Burkha-Dutt type retard.....

[patriot]

This is not true . Common sense says ... a bunch of militants cant drive out a entire community while large contingents of Army had been deployed there unless ofcourse the militants have strong support at the grass-roots level. This is why I say that it is very important to come to terms with realities before we even talk about solutions.

More tripe. You call hundreds of heavily armed militants belonging to half a dozen Pak terrorist organizations " a bunch of militants" . You think all along we have stationed a hundred thousand troops to fight " a bunch of militants " or heavily trained and armed militants by hundreds pushed across the LOC by Pak ? I am sorry to say, you are just making a sorry pathetic case for yourself as usual. You have no reason to complain why people don't take you " seriously ". let us just cut this debate here, because you in all your " wisdom" are not going to change.

[patriot]

LOL Please don't go about flaunting your ignorance. The largest islamist Paki-loving populations come from those areas. Most of the people who formulated the two-nation theory and then migrated to Pakistan came from those two regions. Please read up on pre-partition riots in U.P and Hyderabad. After the Kashmiri Islamofacist scum these two regions produce the next best "grapes". Another typical blind Burkha-Dutt type retard.....

Is it a " coincidence " that they became Pak ' loving ' after the Babri Masjid demolition . They are muslim dominated regions - there are relatives across either side of the border. Is that supposed to be some miracle ? Thousands of Indian Sindhis visit Karachi, do they also become " Paki 'loving. You suffer from utter paranoia my friend. Fix that first, I certainly know my history lessons. And don;t get personal unless you want to flee from here.

[patriot]

Arkem is spot on .

LOL. typical convenient clutching on somebody else's straws when you have been nothing sensible to say. Then you crib about people mocking and not respecting you.

[patriot]

Ohh huzoor ... most of our military is permanently stationed in that region since donkeys yrs ... Dont take my words go talk to a KP and he will tell you how their wherabouts where ratted out by their own muslim neighbours ( with whom they had lived for yrs ) to militants so that they could go after them systematically.

Since you are hellbent on people exposing your utter falsehood here goes , from a website by the kashmiri pandits, for the kashimiri pandits. No one blames Indian muslims - the entire blame is on Pakistan's rogue militancy in Kashmir. yeah..because you don't have pants to argue, you are asking me to go find a kashmiri pandit. Bossbhai- with all due respect, you are an absolute waste of time . You time and again show a very dishonest side and you have no reason to complain when people mock you. My last reply to you on this thread. http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/sundry/genocide.html

Genocide in Kashmir 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits, constituting 99% of the total population of Hindus living in Muslim majority area of the Kashmir Valley, were forcibly pushed out of the Valley by Muslim terrorists, trained in Pakistan, since the end of 1989. They have been forced to live the life of exiles in their own country, outside their homeland, by unleashing a systematic campaign of terror, murder, loot and arson.

Terrorist Violence against Kashmiri Pandits in Kashmir - Role of Pakistan Terrorism in Kashmir is an ideological struggle with specified political commitments which are fundamentalist and communal in character. Terrorist violence is aimed at achieving the disengagement of the state of Jammu and Kashmir from India and its annexation to Pakistan. It is, the continuation of the Islamic fundamentalist struggle for the homeland of Pakistan which claims Jammu and Kashmir state on account of its Muslim majority character.

[Kriterion]

3. Try and re-convert them to any of the dharmic faiths as Swami Vivekananda had first proposed .... and this is where things like intestinal fortitude, clear vision and unterstanding of the problem and the will to not cheat your own self/country come in.

this plan, which does not have anything wrong with it inherently, is nonetheless shaky since it seems to be from the Jehova's Witness playbook. a few of the several logicistical problems which come into play: 1) even within islam, it has been next to impossible to convert from shia to sunni or from sunni to shia. even the ahmadiyyah, who have NO visible differences from orthodox sunni muslims have had trouble gaining acceptance. in this light, it seems impossible for even other monotheistic faiths such as Judaism or Christianity to make any reasonable headway in the missionary game, let alone faiths such as jainism or buddhism. 2) even if the above were to work it still wouldn't solve the "problem" since Islam isn't just confined to India. 90% of the worlds muslims live outside India, and India's muslims are generally more moderate than those found in many other parts of the world. 3) the idea that dharmic faiths are an instant recipe for non-conflict doesn't hold water. whose to guarantee that these converted muslims don't understand dharma the way Conqueror Asoka or Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale did?

[Lurker]

1) even within islam, it has been next to impossible to convert from shia to sunni or from sunni to shia. even the ahmadiyyah, who have NO visible differences from orthodox sunni muslims have had trouble gaining acceptance. in this light, it seems impossible for even other monotheistic faiths such as Judaism or Christianity to make any reasonable headway in the missionary game, let alone faiths such as jainism or buddhism. 2) even if the above were to work it still wouldn't solve the "problem" since Islam isn't just confined to India. 90% of the worlds muslims live outside India, and India's muslims are generally more moderate than those found in many other parts of the world.

Both of your points could be addressed in two simple words - Free Will. The problem, in my opinion, with Islam is that it simply does not allow its follower to have a free will. Of all the major religions in the world Islam is the worst culprit when it comes to this.You can play by the rules so long as you do not cross the line. But pray how do you know whats in the outside world is you dont cross the line??? Being a Muslim is tied directly to "imaan", the moment you doubt Islam (much less convert to another religion) you are basically committing a heresy. How do you expect Muslims in India and abroad to walk that line?? More so since the bulk of Muslim populace is poverty stricken and god fearing.

3) the idea that dharmic faiths are an instant recipe for non-conflict doesn't hold water. whose to guarantee that these converted muslims don't understand dharma the way Conqueror Asoka or Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale did?

All religions have been misused by people. An Indian should understand it better than most. But it also needs to be stated that Islam has the worst record regarding this. Yes followers of Buddhism have also slaughtered people but should they be considered the same as Islamic culprits??? Dont think so. Although I must say I have not followed this thread of late so if something got lost in the process thats my bad. xxx

[Kriterion]

Both of your points could be addressed in two simple words - Free Will. The problem, in my opinion, with Islam is that it simply does not allow its follower to have a free will. Of all the major religions in the world Islam is the worst culprit when it comes to this.You can play by the rules so long as you do not cross the line. But pray how do you know whats in the outside world is you dont cross the line??? Being a Muslim is tied directly to "imaan", the moment you doubt Islam (much less convert to another religion) you are basically committing a heresy. How do you expect Muslims in India and abroad to walk that line?? More so since the bulk of Muslim populace is poverty stricken and god fearing.

that was the point i was making...the "plan" doesn't have a chance of working, according to the presumptions on which the plan itself is based.

All religions have been misused by people. An Indian should understand it better than most. But it also needs to be stated that Islam has the worst record regarding this. Yes followers of Buddhism have also slaughtered people but should they be considered the same as Islamic culprits??? Dont think so. Although I must say I have not followed this thread of late so if something got lost in the process thats my bad.

i agree, but just as such actions are regarded as an anomaly within buddhism, we should recognize that such actions are an anomaly within islam as well and have a basis only in the man-made texts of islam such as hadiths and seerah.

[Kriterion]

Dharmic faiths have delivered for over 2500 yrs when it comes to spirituality , peace and such things. Right from Gautam Buddha, Samrat Ashok to Mahatma Gandhi ... no other non-dharmic faiths can lay claim to such lofty high standards when it comes to non-violence. They are the true masters of spirituality. If you think dharmic faiths cant deliver then we might as well pack up and wait for the end of days.

there isn't any quantitative data that would alllow anyone to make an objective testing of this or any alternative hypotheses. and thats assuming that the social, political, and economic environment of all of earth's 7 billion people were equal. nonetheless, the commitment to ahimsa, is highly admirable, although generally speaking nothing unusual in the context of theology or scripture. whats even more confounding is that dharmic concepts of ahimsa vary widely within sects/religions. for example, the precepts contained in jainism of a total, obsessive-compulsive non-aggression is just as far removed from the letters of the Bhagavad Gita as the Quran is from the Old Testamant, or as Buddha's teachings were from Gobind Singh's. in my understanding, the teachings of Jainism and Buddhism rank as first and second on the "non-aggression rankings chart", with islam/christianity/hinduism/sikhism coming in at equal third, with Judaism bringing up the rear amongst established world religions. again this based not on actual body counts - which are impossible to quantiify - but rather on the major religious scriptures for each faith.