Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

it becomes your duty to protect yourselfs from such danger by whatever means.

Get one thing clear : In Hindu dharma, 'whatever means' is never an option. If you got that from the Gita, you misunderstood the Gita. A karma based religion cannot advocate whatever means in the first place! Only a religion-by-the-book can claim that and your tendency to be as 'dilligent a book-phile' as the muslims is evident in your blind worship of the Gita. This is precisely the thing that Vivekananda warned against. For a hindu, adopting 'whatever means' for survival is not an option, since the entire goal of a hindu is to lead this life as properly as possible inorder to progress in the next life.

But you are aware and have agreed the repercussions of living with such a violence prone community

Yes. Coexistance with that violent community is a lesser evil than what you propose.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Did you read the article ... ? Dada also posted a relevant piece from it .... feel free to read it and understand it ... once you do that you will find that i told the exact same thing earlier in this thread ...

I read the articles and nowhere did Vivekananda prescribe violence against the muslim community or kicking them out of India like you do. He criticises their attitude but he doesnt propose violence like you do. That is what i am trying to tell you.

HArdly anything that matches up with the Monks views

Same goes for you - the monk and I are both nonviolent- something that can't be said about you.

Remind me again where I claim that Vivekananda advocates such things .

You claimed that your philosophy is representational of hindu philosophy and you are a 'good hindu fighting a good hindu dharmic fight as precribed by the gita'. I brought up Vivekananda to demonstrate that a good hindu does not contemplate kicking muslims out of India or pre-emptive strike to preserve their way of life and justifying anything and everything inorder to preserve the 'dharma' like you have. Ie, my contention is that your viewpoints are NOT supported by Hinduism and all those who think that it does don't know much about hinduism.

What part of the stuff that happened to Hindus for having tried to merely coexist peacefully was is "Lesser" evil than anything else .... ?

What happened in Bangladesh/Kashmir and Pakistan is nothing compared to what will happen if someone follows your bigoted bakwaas of kicking 150 million muslims out of India and continuously meddling in other people's affairs like your maalik America does.

And sucking up nonsense after nonsense (read Genocide) does not "Fast Track" you to Moksha

I agree. It doesnt. But simply blindly aping your adversary and following their methodology like you do is an insult to our way of life. Hinduism is not 'monkey see- monkey do' like you are in your adoption of antagonistic tactics of the muslims. People like you lower hinduism to the same level as Islam.

Read the scriptures ... they put a big premium on motherland and its protection and maintaining Dharma on it.

Motherland ?!? HAHA Nowhere in the hindu scriptures are there any nationalistic sentiments attached to India as we know it today. Do not project your fallacies on Hinduism to justify your viewpoints. And as i said before i've read several hindu scriptures- more in detail than you i can say. I've also realized - as Vivekanada said - anyone who has a blind adherence to any scripture- be it hindu or otherwise- is a retard headed towards formenting fundamentalism. Scriptures are not meant to be taken literally to justify your hatred. Scriptures are meant to be read as a whole - this is further stated by vivekananda and he goes far enough to suggest that if you view any book as 'ultimate', you are screwed in the head. This goes for anyone blindly worshipping the Gita as well.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Feel free to elaborate the monks views on that Sharia bit that you cleverly ducked

I havn't ducked it- i already said that Vivekananda criticized Islam and he isnt very favourable on the Sharia. I too am not very favourable on Islam. However, nowhere does the monk recommend such drastic and heinous steps as you do.

I bought out few of them which were in stark contrast to what you went about telling

They are in stark contrast to YOUR worldview, not mine. As i said before - the monk as well as myself, are both critical of Islam but peaceful in our outlook. We are not the same people, so obviously we will differ in many aspects. However, the monk is in stark contrast to YOUR worldview because the monk is definitively against premeditated violence against the masses or advocating kicking out muslims from India. As i said, my essential bone of contention, from the very beginning is not your viewpoints - i can't be arsed about what you think is the way to go. My bone of contention is you outrageously linking your viewpoints with hinduism like the fundamentalist hinduvtaa folks in India do. They, like you, do not understand the difference between dislike and working through peaceful methods and hatred/working through genocidal methods such as ' booting all indian muslims out of india'. As i said, you've learnt well from the muslim invaders to've so warped hinduism to resemble Islamic hatred.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

1. Vivekananda advocating conversion of Muslims back to Hinduism

And i dont have a problem with that. Note that i said beforehand that i don't have a problem with Vivekananda's methodology of dialogues and discoureses on the merits of Hinduism leading to conversion. I said that i have a problem with ISKON's methodology that tends to decry other religions as the main method of conversions.

2. Your previous support of Sharia (And whereas now u claim to be critical of Islam)

Please don't misquote me- you are doing this deliberately in an effort to misrepresent me. I've never supported Sharia- i said that the way it is practiced in some countries, i don't have a problem with it. And i've already explained to you that my mind, unlike your's, has a broad spectrum of responses rather than just a basic 'on and off' 'i support or i am against' simpleton like approach you take.

that somehow does not see a problem if Hindus are on the receiving end of a Genocide

Yet again, you misrepresent me. Ofcourse i have a problem with genocide of any sort. I differ with you in how to deal with the problem.

whereas you start frothing at the mouth the moment somebody proposes a bit of more spiny approach ?

What you call spiny, i call barbaric and the approach of the abrahamic faiths. As i said, you've learnt well from your Islamic adversaries. Your approach is at odds with that of Vivekananda, Shankaracharya, Buddha, Mahavira, Nagarjuna, Chaitanya, Ramkrishna, to name a few. ALL of the above were far more enlightened than you or your fundie hinduvta buddies and all of the above were sons of our soil who advocated ahimsa, tolerance and would've never proposed the kind of absurd un-hindu solutions you propose : such as ethnic cleansing of Indian muslims from India, pre-emptive meddling in other people's countries to protect your own interests, etc etc. I am sorry but i'd rather give crediblity to the abovementioned names than the sorry excuse for hindus such as the wannabe-hinduvta zealots.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

so now you are what is called a brainwashed Hindutva fundie

Err no. I only support voluntary conversions with spirituality being the only incentive.

As do you .... What goes around comes around .... I dont subscribe to the logic of One-way morality

I've not deliberately misquoted you - while you have for me.

Some fantistic way to deal

Yes- the best solution, unlike your 'on or off' binary mode mind, is case specific. Sometimes its better to convert on the surface and wait for the scourge to pass. Sometimes its better to resist, sometimes its better to move on. My philosophy is very simple : If i find hostility towards me where i live, i pack up and leave to a more receptive place. If tomorrow Canada turned into a white supremist nation, i'd leave in a heartbeat. If India turned into a fundie hindu bastion, most of my family would leave in a heartbeat as well. Your kind of fundamentalist mentality is on the rise and the Vivekananda type of tolerant mentality is on the wane- which is why i said i wouldnt be surprised if Hindus went on a crusade or two in the near future.

and you actually tried to prove that was prescribed in our texts

What i proved is that our texts do not support your heinous methods.

What you call Pacifist and Peacfull is actually a worst human tragedy that ever was if you scratch the surface

Good for you if you think so. Matters not a hoot to me. All i can say is, I have Buddha, Mahavira, Nagarjuna, Lao Tzi, Vivekananda, Ramkrishna, Chaitanya, Shankaracharya, etc. in the pacifist's corner. I hope you enjoy the company of the Hitlers and the Khaljis, since they shared the same ethnic cleansing mentality that you have. My only complaint against you is that you associate your heinous mentality with hinduism. It pains me to see hinduism degraded by fundamentalist hatemongerers like you from the pacifistic bastions established by the long list of hindu scholars through the ages.

You openly support and have no problems with Hindu genocide

I've already said that i do not. In your world of extremism, not killing all muslims or driving them out of India as a response to some muslims committing violence against hindus equals to supporting a genocide. Ie, its the classic call of ' if you dont hunt the jews, you are not an upstanding Aryan'. Just substitute jews with muslims and aryans with hindus and you got your fundie philosophy.

and heaped scorn when a mention of taking actions against the perpetrators ....

False. I've heaped scorn at your infantile attitude of wanting to take actions against ALL muslims because of the actions of SOME muslims.

if you engage in a discussion with me without indulging in facts

Then educate yourself better in the hindu scriptures if you wish to debate them with me. You just posted links to Vivekananda's speeches without even bothering to read what they are about : You posted them in response to proving me wrong - yet nowhere in those speeches did Vivekananda propose or endorse such drastic and heinous steps as you do. Yet again an example of your extremism - you confuse someone's distaste of a philosophy with the most extreme form of response imaginable.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

I have proved that none of our texts approve of your shut up shop and run for cover kind of ideologies

Actually, the Bhavishya Puraan talks about the 'impending problems of the future' and how the solution may be a mixture of aggression, retreat and coexistance.

If you cannot see the inherent message in that then I suspect nothing else will and you will continue in your ways of drivelious word play and meandering.

The inherent message is to stand up for your right and take action against the people who've wronged you - not to take genocidal actions against a whole community like you advocate.

f all the wariors from the Vishnu avatars to the arjuns to the Bheems to the Rajput warrioirs to the Maratha warriors were Hindu fundies and "Jihadis" I am quite happy to be in such company.

Err no. You don't have Krishna or Arjuna and Bheem's company- since their philosophy and actions were categorically against the sinful people, rather than going around taking genocidal actions against an entire community. You got Hitler and Mussolini to keep you company over your 'kick all mulims out of India and lets interfere in other countries matter since anything and everything is okay in the name of the dharma'.

That is why the leftist jihadi fundies like you should get their heads out of the sands and understand the difference between personal soul shudhikaran and a national issue.

There is no national issue, since the hindu texts are not about nationalism! Besides, i am sure you realize that the Gita talks about 'personal soul shudhikaran' as the PRIME DIRECTIVE of a person - the whole 'do your karm without keeping an eye on the results' is indicative of it.

Most of the names that you quote are of spiritual leaders who had nothing to do with political situations

Sorry but that is incorrect - most of the characters i named DID address political scenarios and how to deal with them. All that you witness today has already been addressed by these great souls before and how to deal with it. You cannot follow it because it takes real courage to follow a nonviolent path than a genocidal one.

even while we continue to count dead people year after every year and thousands of our countrymen live as hostages in their own country.

I know its a sad situation but like i said - i refuse to victimise the innocent ones amongst them simply because it is convinient. Such action is called genocidal and while you may approve of them, our philosophy and human concience does not. The bottomline is, Indian muslim have as much claim to Indian soil as you do. Too bad you don't like it but that is what the UN charter on human rights - to which India is a signatory- says.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

o let everyone know which part of the scrpitures forbids what ISCKOn are doing.

It is against the ethics of hinduism ( the bhagwat purana itself says to respect other's religions) when ISKON spreads its faith by dissing other religions and their Gods. Besides, do you need a book to spell everything out for you or can't you understand the tone set by hinduism ?!?

Bla bla bla bla.. find me scriptureal referene . I am not debating based on tone and opinion perceived by XYZ. I knew u got nothing other than vacuuous meandering posturing..Continue

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

"you" calling it as part of Gandhian / Buddhist / whatever philosophy is nothing short of putting a label of Milk on a bottle of poison ...

I am sorry but it is Gandhian/Buddhist philosophy to not resort to genocidal tactics in the name of survival, especially not when we are surviving as the majority in our nation.

Feel free to provide links , articles and such .... you know the worth of your words around here ...

I already linked you to the entire collection of Vivekananda's works. I am sure you can look up buddhist portals on the web. But i don't think you want to read what Vivekananda or Buddha himself has to say. You seem to specialize in the drivelous nonsense spouted by the hinduvta idiots while misquoting buddha or vivekananda, as evidenced by you trying to link an article about vivekananda to support your genocidal tactics.

untill you get a conviction from the Supreme court that declares ALL MUSLIMS as in all the 120 Million as guilty

I hold muslims to the same standards as hindus. If a few muslims causing violence against hindus ensures that the entire muslim community is booted out of India, then a few hindu maoists blowing people up in India should ensure that the entire hindus booted out of india as well.

Yeah yeah and the "Karm" part DOES NOT ... I REPEAT DOES NOT INCLUDE running away from Jihadis or worse converting yourself into their lunatic cult knowingly.

There is nothing wrong from a Karmic perspective to convert on the surface if that causes the least amount of trouble - for then it'd be a white lie.

Once again .... there were a plenty of innocents that got caught in the crossfire in the Mahabharath ... YOU painting them as not innocent is nothing but your fertile imagination and nothing else ...

Not fertile immagination, its just plain logic. As i stated, the question of innocence INCLUDES willful participation ! Bhisma might've been innocent but he got involved nonetheless. If a good peaceful innocent muslim knowingly gets involved too then he is a fair target as well. However, you CANNOT go around victimizing those who have no say in the matter or those who arn't concerned. If you'd read the mahabharata well enough, you'd realize that the worst crime committed in that entire series was the genocide of the Pandava foetuses. Ie, people who have no say in the matter and don't get involved. Your solution involves similar extreme crimes against infants. I am sorry but your Nazi-like genocidal tactics arn't gonna be popular in India- thankfully. And if it does it'd be a sad day for India.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

o let everyone know which part of the scrpitures forbids what ISCKOn are doing.

It is against the ethics of hinduism ( the bhagwat purana itself says to respect other's religions) when ISKON spreads its faith by dissing other religions and their Gods. Besides, do you need a book to spell everything out for you or can't you understand the tone set by hinduism ?!?

Bla bla bla bla.. find me scriptureal referene . I am not debating based on tone and opinion perceived by XYZ. I knew u got nothing other than vacuuous meandering posturing..Continue

I told you where to find it- now go read it. I am quite familiar with your and Bheembhai's tactic of diverting the discussion by asking for an avalanche of internet- related stuff that requires someone hours to dig through and produce. I am sure if you are half as much of a hindu you pretend to be, you'd not have problems getting yourself access to the bhagwat Puran.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

what exactly were those "OTHER" religions that existed around the Vedic times when the Bhagwat purana was written ? ermm ZILCH ..

Umm There are SEVERAL hindu texts from older times ( bhagwat purana for eg) that mention Jains and Jainism. Incase you don't know - Mahavira wasn't the founder of Jainism but the 23rd or 24th Tirthankara. Why do you argue without even bothering to READ a single hindu text well enough is beyond me. As i said and i will repeat : You are a casual Hindu. Ie, you have little or no knowledge of the scriptures. Same goes for D_R.

If that was the case Krishna would not have taken pains to convince the Pandavas to fight injustice as they had made peace by renouncing the wordly riches i.e their Kingdom .

And i keep telling you that this is NOT a blanket statement valid everywhere but very much a judgement call based on case-specific scenario.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Nobody else thinks that way

Vivekananda happened to think that way too and i've already linked you his entire life's works.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc.. Yes. And ? I keep saying that the story of Arjuna-Krishna is NOT a carte-blanche scenario that can be applied anywhere but very much a case specific scenario and its implementation subject to brahmanical decree. Krishna said to follow the brahmin teachers- not to just 'read this stuff i spouted and apply it as you seem fit'. This is precisely because brahmanical knowledge is essential to formulate a response. If it were a muslim style 'one example suits all scenario ala what the prophet did', then hinduism too would've told us to follow the books blindly instead of listening to brahmins and hindu scholars. If you further read Vivekananda, you'd realize that the good swami did not think the events of the Gita or Mahabharata to be factual - he thought it to be a great literary accomplishment designed to teach people the finer points of life and morality and spark debate over it- just like how Krishna's attitude in mahabharata is a source of debate amongst the hindu community to this day. Nowhere does he propose solutions or back solutions as extreme and genocidal as you come up with.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Again "your" opinion ...

No, its my conclusion- based on the Krishna avatar's instruction to follow the teachers rather than follow the book- Krishna was well aware of the pitfalls of blind adherence to a book without proper grounding in hindu philosophy and you demonstrate that.

So the monk doesnt really say what you think he says ... ?

He does say what i think he says- you just havn't read enough of the monk to realize his position. Give it time and read more and you will understand. Brushing up on your english might help too- since the monk is known for his clever and witty manipulations of the language to get his point across. Me thinks you might miss his thrust or his position since you've demonstrated your shaky fundamentals in English comprehension sufficient number of times.

And you are saying that the "Think tank" (of Arjunas days) if presented with current day situation would think that the situation was Hunky dory as of now and would advice the current day Kshatriyas (i.e the Army the police whatever) to shut up and stay quiet .. or convert if necessary as you claim ?

I am saying that any think tank worth his/her salt would refuse to back such a radical and genocidal approach as you've taken by wanting to boot 150 million indians out of india.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

CC, I have said no such things ... and if you repeat that statement again ... I will promptly ban you ... You keep saying that despite plenty of reminders.

Are you denying that you said that Indian muslims should be 'sent out of' India as a solution to indian problems with terrorism ? We had a huge debate on this and that is the context where you started railing on 'oh how ridiculous it'd be to try each and every muslim as if everyone has a video camera attached to his head' when i said that any criminal trial MUST be on a case-by-case basis and an individual is innocent until proven guilty. I am sure you'r finding it convinient to backtrack from your extremist comments now but you are being dishonest by denying you ever said that. I think your 'ban threat' further highlights how you'd like to suppress this bit of info about your perspective.

[gator]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc.. i know, why some people who are buddhists are angry with hinduism and try to insult it on the sly... many buddhists in india were dalits who converted to buddhism... it is unfortunate though...

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Like the time when you said 2 Decades = many decades and pretty much the Entire forum disagreed ... to which you said all those forummers were also wrong ?

Yes they were ! Again, refer yourself to some grammar texts - two is plural and the usage of the word 'many' when the given variables are more than 1 is consistent with the english language, even though not often used. I believe i quoted Wren and Martin book of grammar to prove the flaws in your and other forummer's English.

Feel free to dig up our past discussions and come up with any posts to substantiate your claims ....

Will do and wait for you to do a volte-face again. --------------

many buddhists in india were dalits who converted to buddhism... it is unfortunate though...

I was a brahmin.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

I told you where to find it- now go read it. I am quite familiar with your and Bheembhai's tactic of diverting the discussion by asking for an avalanche of internet- related stuff that requires someone hours to dig through and produce. I am sure if you are half as much of a hindu you pretend to be, you'd not have problems getting yourself access to the bhagwat Puran.

Avalache:-) pal produce at least one avalnche ka baad mein dekhenge.. if u can't then contnue with meaningless BS.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

produce at least one avalnche

!??!??! I just posted the ENTIRE FAKING LIFE'S WORK of VIVEKANANDA ! wtf- thats way way more substantial and 'to the point' than those senseless fundie articles wrriten by some Tom Dick and Harry that are dime-a-dozen in India !