kabira Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) >Its common knowledge that every country- even countries with very very good relations like the US and Canada or Italy and Switzerland- check baggage if the train/bus/plane is crossing the international border. what makes you think that it was not checked? Ok Lets say they check the baggage, what are chances that culprit will get help somewhere after passing the check point by his fellow believers?? How would you stop that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) what makes you think that it was not checked? I thought it mentions in the article somewhere that several eyewitness accounts said that there were no checks at all while boarding the train. Just walk in, sit down and wait for the train to leave sort of business. I know what you say is possible and no security system is foolproof- but it still doesn't excuse negligence from the part of authorities- they are supposed to do their job, which includes baggage checking international bound trains/flights/boats etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) TOO MANY PRESUMPTIONS WITH POINT UT FORHT HERE. (1) muslims don't kill each other ( hell as we speak it's on in sudan iraq pakistan afghnaistan etc) (2) pakistanis don't kill each other (refer to 1) It's not that they kill only because they don't like each other they kill even when contarary is true. In larger pictue of Jihad smeone of their own gets killed that's explained as necessary evil and the person killed are presumably shaheed. So these twisted folks have sorted the mral conunudrum in their own sick way (3) regarding hindu extremist ( first of all there is nothing like this if by extremist u mean professional killer organizations like lasker- this and that). Had it been some sword/ trishul fest that too in reaction to some instatnataneous provocation like godhara i would have bought the argument of shv sena type being involved. But the kind of sophistication required for the train blast where fornsic scientisits are still struggling what kind of material was used has not been shown by shiv sena types in past and there is no reaosn to beleiev all of a sudden they will graduate to this highest level of extremism. Other than wordplay all they can do is sword-lay nothign more nothign less. (4) Only organization in india which has wherwithal to orchestarted this sort of event iare naxals from PWG to MCC to ULFA. But the question is these folks get their weapns and other succour from pakistan and so it hardly makes sense that they will target a pakistan bound train full of pakistanis. So this leaves the jihadi brigade as hobson's choice for this sick honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) D_R, i don't think ULFA or Naxalites/Maoists are involved. They have almost zero interest/connection with the whole muslim angle. They'd rather blow up a train in Guwahati than one going to Pakistan. As per weapons, i think you are underestimating chinese help through the porous burmese border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) D_R, i don't think ULFA or Naxalites/Maoists are involved. They have almost zero interest/connection with the whole muslim angle. They'd rather blow up a train in Guwahati than one going to Pakistan. As per weapons, i think you are underestimating chinese help through the porous burmese border. I did say that naxalites would rather target rajdhani express than samjhauta express .. I think chinese could care less about these things.... their eyes are fixed on bigger goals...but u never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Boy for a country which sees the kind of terror atack more or les every week we are utterly negligent.. Several of pakistani passengers who were travelling in reserved category were without passport and this was entered in the railways's reservation chart....... Should not these guys be nabbed the moment they caim they have no passport :wall: :wall: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViVeriUniversumVivusVici Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Judgment awaits the perpetrators in the apex court, but he who fails his duty must seek retribution and excuses for he shall need them both. Mourn the fallen, calm the enraged and nurse the wounded... then pick up the pieces again for the journey has not yet ended... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apocalypse Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) I guess they heard your thoughts from across the border of nursing the wounded http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pakistan_forcelifts_Samjhauta_Express_survivors/articleshow/1662455.cms This does not make sense of airlifting people who were not supposed to move. 9-year-old Shamim was on ventilator when he was almost dragged out of Safdarjung?s ICU along with six others and put on a PAF special aircraft to be airlifted to Lahore. Some of the blast victims cried in vain to be allowed to stay back till they recuperated. why cant pak govt takes this matter in a human manner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViVeriUniversumVivusVici Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) wtf. So now i am a jihadist for pointing out that it is CATEGORICALLY an Indian government fackup for not having any security check on international trains! I dunno why the hell did you give Mumbai-Paarle train and security there as an example. Its common knowledge that every country- even countries with very very good relations like the US and Canada or Italy and Switzerland- check baggage if the train/bus/plane is crossing the international border. They check baggage in channel tunnel too. That is standard procedure and it was India's fault for not following it. I don't care if the dead were pakistanis or Indians or mongolians- they were people who didn't deserve to die because our government facked up the security which most other countries would've provided. It is a standard rule of thumb that India failed to follow and there is no if and or buts to this - India is responsible. As per the rest of your comment- yes, i hold my culture to higher standards. Dunno what kind of household you grew up under but in mine, we always expected a little bit 'extra' from our near and dear ones. 64,000 Miles of Rail (almost all of which is broad gauge) 80,000,000 Passengers daily 10,000,000 Employees 1,000,000 Train Stations Providing security for the above is an endeavor God shall consider twice! Justify favoritism can you? Why must security be provided for the "Samjhuta Express" and not the "Patna to Gaya Express"? Is a bihari life any less extraordinary? Failed has the security system, but the pendulum swings either ways... While we must provide better security, our neighbors ought to provide better morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViVeriUniversumVivusVici Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) I guess they heard your thoughts from across the border of nursing the wounded http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pakistan_forcelifts_Samjhauta_Express_survivors/articleshow/1662455.cms This does not make sense of airlifting people who were not supposed to move. 9-year-old Shamim was on ventilator when he was almost dragged out of Safdarjung?s ICU along with six others and put on a PAF special aircraft to be airlifted to Lahore. Some of the blast victims cried in vain to be allowed to stay back till they recuperated. why cant pak govt takes this matter in a human manner greater than the demons of materialism and vice are those of politics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Which country checks the baggage of train criss-crossing through its own territory. BTW on wagah border which is the formal boundary corssing point like any other country in the world baggagaes are checked.. As the new guy has mentioned it's next to impoosible to provide security cover everywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViVeriUniversumVivusVici Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Which country checks the baggage of train criss-crossing through its own territory. BTW on wagah border which is the formal boundary corssing point like any other country in the world baggagaes are checked.. As the new guy has mentioned it's next to impoosible to provide security cover everywhere I can name a few who do not check them even at the borders: The European Union. Security, its absence or presence is rarely ever a deterrent to the malicious endeavors of a terrorist or as i affectionately refer to them as "the asswipes of humanity"... But in case the point is not driven home from the previous post: Basic equipment required to engage in a rudimentary security scanning: 1. Metal Detector (a bit like the whore thats been around the town, detects metalic weapons, easily fooled by the new ceramic and composite substance weapons such as the Glock handgun) 2. Chemical Chromatographer (relatively new, gives a very large number of false positives and hence can often lead to complacence... useful in detecting nitrous and hydrocarbon based explosives; fooled by plastic and improvised explosives such as RDX). 3. Back Scatter X ray (absolute latest, absolute best... exposes everything from the man's err... endowment to any concealed weapons... no longer can you hide the shiv in your butt mister!). 4. Trained Dogs (coz there is nothing like a brown doberman viciously attacking a terrorist! and yeah they are as good as the chemical chromatographers). 5. Jatt Cops (coz they can rough you up real good) Now the numbers... Number of Junctions (for providing security at each station is cruel and unjust punishment): 50,000 Passenger traffic at junctions: 70,000,000 to 78,000,000 (source: My Grandfather, veteran of the of Railways Police, Western India for a mere 40 year... that inexperienced, uninformed madman). Average number of security ques required for optimal passenger movement: 3 per junction. Cost of operation of 3 security lines per junction: Equipment: $100,000 for the metal detector and chromotographers. another $250,000 for the back scatter x ray operational cost (electricity, training of individuals, wages etc): $10,000 per annum, per junction. now, i am sure they teach mathematics across the border, so do this: multiply the operational cost and cost of equipment to the number of junctions and compare that to the gross domestic product of your nation... now consider the cost of paying a death benefit to the victims of the blast... the cost of apprehending the perpetrators, prosecuting them and then finally arranging for their sodomy in prison... i sound like a cold motherfracker right now, but being an economist i am a prisoner of numbers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Which country checks the baggage of train criss-crossing through its own territory. BTW on wagah border which is the formal boundary corssing point like any other country in the world baggagaes are checked.. As the new guy has mentioned it's next to impoosible to provide security cover everywhere I can name a few who do not check them even at the borders: The European Union. Security, its absence or presence is rarely ever a deterrent to the malicious endeavors of a terrorist or as i affectionately refer to them as "the asswipes of humanity"... But in case the point is not driven home from the previous post: Basic equipment required to engage in a rudimentary security scanning: 1. Metal Detector (a bit like the whore thats been around the town, detects metalic weapons, easily fooled by the new ceramic and composite substance weapons such as the Glock handgun) 2. Chemical Chromatographer (relatively new, gives a very large number of false positives and hence can often lead to complacence... useful in detecting nitrous and hydrocarbon based explosives; fooled by plastic and improvised explosives such as RDX). 3. Back Scatter X ray (absolute latest, absolute best... exposes everything from the man's err... endowment to any concealed weapons... no longer can you hide the shiv in your butt mister!). 4. Trained Dogs (coz there is nothing like a brown doberman viciously attacking a terrorist! and yeah they are as good as the chemical chromatographers). 5. Jatt Cops (coz they can rough you up real good) Now the numbers... Number of Junctions (for providing security at each station is cruel and unjust punishment): 50,000 Passenger traffic at junctions: 70,000,000 to 78,000,000 (source: My Grandfather, veteran of the of Railways Police, Western India for a mere 40 year... that inexperienced, uninformed madman). Average number of security ques required for optimal passenger movement: 3 per junction. Cost of operation of 3 security lines per junction: Equipment: $100,000 for the metal detector and chromotographers. another $250,000 for the back scatter x ray operational cost (electricity, training of individuals, wages etc): $10,000 per annum, per junction. now, i am sure they teach mathematics across the border, so do this: multiply the operational cost and cost of equipment to the number of junctions and compare that to the gross domestic product of your nation... now consider the cost of paying a death benefit to the victims of the blast... the cost of apprehending the perpetrators, prosecuting them and then finally arranging for their sodomy in prison... i sound like a cold motherfracker right now, but being an economist i am a prisoner of numbers... Now this is what I call informed rejoinder..You sound like an intelligent guy who doesn't indulge in meandering aimless drivel.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViVeriUniversumVivusVici Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) wtf. So now i am a jihadist for pointing out that it is CATEGORICALLY an Indian government fackup for not having any security check on international trains! I dunno why the hell did you give Mumbai-Paarle train and security there as an example. Its common knowledge that every country- even countries with very very good relations like the US and Canada or Italy and Switzerland- check baggage if the train/bus/plane is crossing the international border. They check baggage in channel tunnel too. That is standard procedure and it was India's fault for not following it. I don't care if the dead were pakistanis or Indians or mongolians- they were people who didn't deserve to die because our government facked up the security which most other countries would've provided. It is a standard rule of thumb that India failed to follow and there is no if and or buts to this - India is responsible. As per the rest of your comment- yes, i hold my culture to higher standards. Dunno what kind of household you grew up under but in mine, we always expected a little bit 'extra' from our near and dear ones. 64,000 Miles of Rail (almost all of which is broad gauge) 80,000,000 Passengers daily 10,000,000 Employees 1,000,000 Train Stations Providing security for the above is an endeavor God shall consider twice! Justify favoritism can you? Why must security be provided for the "Samjhuta Express" and not the "Patna to Gaya Express"? Is a bihari life any less extraordinary? Failed has the security system, but the pendulum swings either ways... While we must provide better security, our neighbors ought to provide better morality. Vvvvv, Problem with thou is ... thou useth logic ... that is to be shunned and not allow facts of life to get in the way .... You will then be hailed as a saint ... a humble suggestion milord from this unworthy peasant :hic: No man is lesser than I, and none subservient to me... I am merely a servant of humanity and de facto the proverbial peasant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Why must security be provided for the "Samjhuta Express" and not the "Patna to Gaya Express"? Is a bihari life any less extraordinary? It is very simple. Samjhauta Express is an international train. Patna to Gaya express is not. It is standard procedure to check baggage loaded to trains/planes/buses etc. destined to cross the international boundary. When i took the VIA rail from Kingston to Detroit long ago, my baggage was checked while loading from Kingston - not just at the Detroit-Windsor border. This is a glaring oversight from the indian authorities. I can name a few who do not check them even at the borders: The European Union. Err no. I took the Channel Tunnel 4 years back and i, along with rest of the passengers had our baggage scanned before embarkation. Its just a matter of standard protocol between vehicles of public/mass transport that are going to cross international borders. Actually, the reason for these checks in international border crossing is not one of security (though post 9/11 that aspect has tightened somewhat) but that of bringing in banned/restricted goods into one country from another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViVeriUniversumVivusVici Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Why must security be provided for the "Samjhuta Express" and not the "Patna to Gaya Express"? Is a bihari life any less extraordinary? It is very simple. Samjhauta Express is an international train. Patna to Gaya express is not. It is standard procedure to check baggage loaded to trains/planes/buses etc. destined to cross the international boundary. When i took the VIA rail from Kingston to Detroit long ago, my baggage was checked while loading from Kingston - not just at the Detroit-Windsor border. This is a glaring oversight from the indian authorities. I can name a few who do not check them even at the borders: The European Union. Err no. I took the Channel Tunnel 4 years back and i, along with rest of the passengers had our baggage scanned before embarkation. Its just a matter of standard protocol between vehicles of public/mass transport that are going to cross international borders. Actually, the reason for these checks in international border crossing is not one of security (though post 9/11 that aspect has tightened somewhat) but that of bringing in banned/restricted goods into one country from another. Samjhuta express... is NOT an international train. its runs from Delhi to Atari, arriving at which the passengers disembark, pass immigration control, cross the border and board a separate train that takes them to their destinations in Pakistan (few and far in between they might be) and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViVeriUniversumVivusVici Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Why must security be provided for the "Samjhuta Express" and not the "Patna to Gaya Express"? Is a bihari life any less extraordinary? It is very simple. Samjhauta Express is an international train. Patna to Gaya express is not. It is standard procedure to check baggage loaded to trains/planes/buses etc. destined to cross the international boundary. When i took the VIA rail from Kingston to Detroit long ago, my baggage was checked while loading from Kingston - not just at the Detroit-Windsor border. This is a glaring oversight from the indian authorities. I can name a few who do not check them even at the borders: The European Union. Err no. I took the Channel Tunnel 4 years back and i, along with rest of the passengers had our baggage scanned before embarkation. Its just a matter of standard protocol between vehicles of public/mass transport that are going to cross international borders. Actually, the reason for these checks in international border crossing is not one of security (though post 9/11 that aspect has tightened somewhat) but that of bringing in banned/restricted goods into one country from another. Lets go over this again... 64,000 miles of railway tracks, and 80million daily passengers... provide security for that... something economists say is "impossible". now you have the audacity to compare that will the spare rail network of united states and Europe? These nations conduct a majority of their immigration control at their borders with non EU nations, but are relaxed to the point of non existent within the EU. Finally, yeah this is government oversight, or rather infrastructure failure to perform adequate baggage checkup. Maybe you have a suggestion? Should be engage in random (read as profiling) checkups and interrogations? Now wont that be fun? another issue that our neighbors can use to subscribe to the school of "we are the victim". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) now you have the audacity to compare that will the spare rail network of united states and Europe? Err yes. We are not talking about the volume of rail connections but international protocol- and in those cases, the US/Canada sees more international land, air and sea travel than India on international basis. We should check all trains/planes/buses etc. entering and exiting India. I don't care what goes on between UP-Bihar or Karnatak-Tamil borders but if its a bus/train/plane/boat heading to or from international destinations, India should check the people and baggage. Should be engage in random (read as profiling) checkups and interrogations? How about just some faking x-ray machines at the terminals that'll load an international train and make sure people who board that train get their belongings x-rayed ?!? Not that hard now, is it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Samjhuta express... is NOT an international train. its runs from Delhi to Atari, arriving at which the passengers disembark, pass immigration control, cross the border and board a separate train that takes them to their destinations in Pakistan (few and far in between they might be) and vice versa. It is an international train if the train's route involves international travel. Same reason why the oriental express is an international train the whole way. It is important to see the whole train route as international, rather than seeing where it crosses the border because it means any passenger travelling internationally can embark from any point of the journey inside Indian territorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViVeriUniversumVivusVici Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Re: Fire sweeps through Indian train (64+ dead) Should be engage in random (read as profiling) checkups and interrogations? How about just some faking x-ray machines at the terminals that'll load an international train and make sure people who board that train get their belongings x-rayed ?!? Not that hard now, is it ? Already there and as i said before, my severely myopic grandmother could fool one. They don't detect inflammable substances or composite material explosives. yet, no harm beefing up the security some. though try persuading to a politician why security of an international train which would usually entertain a number of non Indian citizens is paramount whereas the security of his constituents is not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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