The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

As expected no more words or lectures about tolerance

Aree yaar, some of us don't like harping about the same subject over days. I know you guys are obsessed with the whole Islamic thing. I can handle a few posts a day on such topic, not a 100.

Blah blah blah, just asked you to apply your own logic to reality and now we are obsessed, think of a better excuse :hic: BTW, it's not only you, the OP has gone missing it seems when asked how exactly those claims were made

[gabbar]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry sorry to join in late - the op has been one of the worst piece of trash I have ever seen

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

:wtg: Your figures so far are - 1 million thread - Islam Bashing 5 threads - Talking positive about other religions (minus islam) Keep it up buddy ! Omnivorous you are ! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

See KR do u want me to pull up those threads.. nobody even bothers to post in those ab ham akele baith ke monologue sunayen ka... waise omnivorous ka meaning batana zaroori hai once again i guess mis-communication isi karan hai.. Omnivorous means I read everythign it doesn't mean i have to be equally sold on every school of thought..So u guys are ranting on illogical lines to start with but anyway... I assume too many things viz a viz bare minimum vocabulary and I have seen that more often than not it becomes over-estimation on my parts.. continue now

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

Lurker is absolutely right. Those who are learned about all the religions typically have the most tolerance for all. Then there are some who are tolerant by nature as they believe most humans are good with a few bad apples everywhere. Problem is with those who think they have supreme understanding about all religions coupled with a supremacy about their own resulting in hate mongering.

I can bte my bottom cent u have not gone through quran even once.. I inclucated love for islam only after reading and re-readin the text.. so if anythign lurker sud be happy nto many people read otherwise the leftover charade of islam is religion of peace too will go down the drain.. :lmao: ....

[kumble_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry Okay Sir, Let's just agree to disagree on certain issues without getting personal.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

Wikipedia is not a authentic source for demographic info ... heres the real deal from the horses mouth... (2000 Census) http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t37/tab01a.pdf 28.1 Million speak Spanish out of a Total of 262.3 Million comes to about 10.7 % For the 1990 Census it was 17.33 mill out of 230.445 Mill = 7.5 %

This census data is rong lurker has indicivudally counted them all and then made wikipedia entry.. take it or leave it

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

Spanish is not a religion so the whole thing is mute as far as I am concerned. A similar comparison would be--> how many Hindus understand Urdu? :wtg: Atleast compare apples with apples and not oranges.

Now that would be a logical thign to do. :lmao: ... and word-play in name of debate has a congenital aversion with logic. anyway his theory I have shredded into pieces already, now it's just egotistic inertia talking so enjoy...

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

As expected no more words or lectures about tolerance

Aree yaar, some of us don't like harping about the same subject over days. I know you guys are obsessed with the whole Islamic thing. I can handle a few posts a day on such topic, not a 100.

There are more than thousand posts every day on board not everybody gos through every one of them.. long live free will.. i am sure none of the poster pay u a visit with katat in tow and insist u to read do they.. :wtg:

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

Wikipedia is not a authentic source for demographic info ... heres the real deal from the horses mouth... (2000 Census) http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t37/tab01a.pdf

Those are the numbers for language spoken within the household, as in principal language of a home. The number of people with basic Spanish language would surely be more than that. Which is the whole issue here. Noone is suggesting to understand Islam inside out but a basic knowledge would help. xxx

they have basic knowldege and that's why there is this love for islam .. more they will know more the love will grow...... see u are nobody as far as islamic interpretation is concerned neither am i anybody and those who matter there version if islam and ur version has nothign i common.. u may like people to believe sthg which islam is not but well for that to happe u will have to first sell ur version among muslims.. this forked tongue policy of one version for kafirs (particularly when all-out offensive is not plausible) and one version for muslims where they have no fear of reprisal is not going to work........... it's nto medieval time people have got eyes ears and they do see and hear things and yes even read stuff from the main source itself not some euphemised version.. :wtg:

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

I can bte my bottom cent u have not gone through quran even once

You can debate the Koran with me if you wish - though why i dunno ( i am anti-Koran as well but not blindly like you are). And i doubt you've yourself read the Koran completely - If you had, you'd realize that the Koran is far less hateful and discriminatory than the Bible or Manu Smiriti. But i doubt you've read the bible or Manu Smiriti either. As a demonstration of your back-to-front Koran readership, why don't you tell us the meaning of the verses known as Sirat-al-Mustaqeem and which surah it occurs under.

[ViVeriUniversumVivusVici]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

i live in texas and i think i know whats going on here... less than 1% non latino american speak Spanish and those who do are either teachers, or ranchers who employ a number of Hispanic americans. that number is not on the rise and spanish is not the second language. it is taught in schools where students can choose to learn a second language, just like German, Italian and french but it is not a second language of the nation. next time check the facts mate.

Then I am afraid you are not paying attention to where you live. Much like you I have lived in Texas(Houston to be precise) for a while and I know how people in Houston know/do know Spanish very well. This is what Wikipedia says: Spanish is the most widely taught non-English language in U.S. secondary schools and institutions of higher education, indicating its importance among non-Hispanic Americans. Perhaps as many as 100 million people in the United States have some basic knowledge of Spanish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_in_the_United_States Since US population crossed 300 million last year it means almost 1/3rd, 30%plus population speaks Spanish. Considering Hispanic population in USA is supposed to be under 15% it is pertinent to note that as much Non-Hispanic know Spanish as do the Hispanics. Hispanics of any race: 14.5% or about 41.9 million. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States Got that mate? Let me advice you what you did to me - get your facts straight(more so since you live in Texas!) xxx

that is such a load of cow refuse that its funny... if you think wikipedia is an accurate source of knowledge then you are better of reading tabloids for updates on current affairs. when they say that a 100 million americans have a rudimentary knowledge of spanish, that implies understanding a few words. 100 million out of the 300 million americans is a very very liberal figure and grotesquely inaccurate. you really need to get your head on straight... and i repeat this, yes spanish is taught as a second language in schools, but just as french, and german. spanish is often learnt by non hispanic students but that does not mean that they are able to hold constructive, comprehensible conversations in spanish when they graduate from high school. english is, and shall remain the foremost language of the united states, and infact, one of the prerequisites for naturalized citizenship. spanish is spoken almost exclusively in hispanic quarters and no, there is no freakin attempt by the non hispanic population to learn spanish to be better acquainted with the 15% of the population. since you lived in houston (congratulations), here is a statistic from the Houston Independent School District: for every spanish as a second language classroom, there are 4 english as a second language classrooms. what do you suppose that suggests?

[ViVeriUniversumVivusVici]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry If i may be so insolent to suggest this: Let us abandon this thread in the name of reason. We have on one side an individual that uses illogical conjecture and inaccurate statistics to drive home (remarkably unsuccessfully that is) a non sequitor; whereas on the other side we have a few over zealous chauvinists (including yours truly) who are unintelligent enough to respond to each inaccurate and baseless allegation/statement.

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry Still no replies, why I am not surprised :chin: Probably getting ready for the next hit&run attacks. Shouldn't take too long when no reasoning is necessary :hic:

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6367773.stm Damn these ignorant hindus :wall: :wall:

[Lurker]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry A good read for both normal as well as Jihadi Hindus. In 1857 a largely Hindu army found a symbol in the Mughal emperor. The contrast with the Babri demolition in ?92 is striking

? This is Zafar Mahal in Mehrauli. Now, if you have been to Delhi as a tourist, or if you have been to this part of Delhi as an old Delhiwala, then chances are no one has directed you to this place. But this is the summer palace of Bahadur Shah Zafar, the last Mughal, and my guest is who else but William Dalrymple.You are writing this series of books about Delhi, teaching us Delhiwallahs what our city was all about. It?s almost like one of our Indian writers going to New York and London and teaching them about Harley or Hyde Park. Well, we Scots have exactly the same. The guy who wrote the great accounts of Scottish history, was a Canadian. So there?s a precedent in my own country. So I?m getting my revenge now. ? You know history fascinates me, but it also confuses, confuses me because, look at 1857. Reading your book, there is this whole touching section of the destruction of Delhi?s Mughal monuments. Monuments, but mostly Mughal. By the British. And you write about it with a great deal of pain. You make the Raj out to be the villain there. It?s amazing that how little we read about that. We read about Jallianwala Bagh, we read about other atrocities. We know that Muslim invaders destroyed many Hindu monuments. But there is so little mention of what the British did to Old Delhi in 1857. I think there?s a very interesting story here. Because, I think in that sense Savarkar has kidnapped your narrative of 1857. He emphasised strictly Mangal Pandey in Barrackpore and Rani of Jhansi in Jhansi. Now, they are great heroic figures and great national heroes, but ultimately, in the story of 1857, they are frankly side-shows because of the 1,39,000 sepoys who rose against their Britsh officers, 1,00,000 went straight to Delhi. Now these are upper-caste Hindus, and who do they get to lead the rebellion ? the Mughal emperor. ? The Mughal emperor who was emperor only in name. But still had enough prestige. That?s even more surprising. ? Shahanjah-e-alam Dilli sey Palam. Now, he didn?t even have up to Palam. He just had the walls of the Red Fort. Zafar, by 1857. And yet, the prestige of the name is such that these Hindus from the opposite end of? now remember, these guys are from eastern UP and Bihar, they are not local guys from here ? they go to Delhi and they ask Zafar to lead them. And the contrast of that with 1992, with the destruction of the Babri Masjid, is very striking. ? The fascinating thing is that here is this army, the majority of which is upper-caste Hindus. Eighty-five per cent. ? Eighty-five per cent upper-caste Hindus who need a symbol, and this symbol for them is the Mughal emperor in Delhi. No matter how decrepit he is, but they want that symbol and they have no problem with the fact that he is a Muslim. Right? Sure. What it implies is that the big division with the two great religions took place after 1857. Took place in the second half of the 19th century and not before. And I think that?s really important. ? I?ll come to that, but the other thing you talk about is how ? a fascinating thing ? how clerics are calling it a jihad. And you mentioned stirring lines of poetry where somebody says ?now the sword of Islam has risen and now the Christian infidels are being driven out and destroyed?. And this is the end of, so to say, the Christian sway over the world. This is Azad. The great Azad. ? And yet, 85 per cent upper-caste Hindus. Absolutely. I think this ? some of this, has been slightly misreported. I think it is worth making quite explicit what the argument is. I am not saying 1857 is the jihad. Period. What I am saying is that within the uprising in Delhi, there?s a substratum of jihadis. ? No, no. I am not saying that. What I am saying is even when the clerics are calling it a jihad and the ruler is a Muslim, an army that is 85 per cent upper-caste Hindus has no problem with it. Well, that is not entirely true, because certainly the court and the sepoys and the city of Delhi managed to keep together on Hindus and Muslim lines. There was no divide, but the jihadis do create a problem, actually. Because when they raising a flag from Jama Masjid... they are only about 10 per cent of the fighters. ? They are always only 10 per cent. Nonetheless, they do create division. And particularly, one of the kind of key moments in the uprising in Delhi is on August 1, which is Eid, when the jihadis and Arabs, they want to slaughter a cow. Now Zafar, who is not known for being very proactive, and is called a sleepy guy, when he hears this, he realises this is catastrophe. I mean, if the army divides on Hindu, Muslim lines and the city divides on Hindu, Muslim lines, the uprising would be over. What he does is ? he can?t arrest the jihadis for he hasn?t got the power ? but he can arrest the cows. So there is this long stream of documents in the mutiny papers, which are letters from Zafar to the Kotwal saying go and arrest the cows in the city. The Kotwal says fine. Then somebody says there is barely room in his Kotwali for 100 cows and there are a thousand cows in Delhi, at least. In the end, they take a census of the cows instead. They didn?t actually have to arrest them. ? If one reads your book, until 1857, Delhi under the Mughals is great symbol of inclusivist, pluralistic Islam. A pluralistic culture where you find Hindus and Muslims sharing the same poetry, enjoying the same mushairas. ? Then, it begins to change. Can I give a conspiracy theory? Please go ahead. ? It is said the British figured it and they figured that their future lay in pushing ahead that divide. If not creating a divide, then widening the divide. And divide and rule begins then, leading to the partition. Well, you have references to divide and rule earlier, but what I think really is the case is that you get much more self-consciousness of Hindus and Muslim identities. Among Muslims, you have Deoband growing up. Among Hindus, you have the Arya Samaj. ? And the British thrived on it. The British thrived on it but they didn?t have to discourage it very strongly either. I am the first to criticise the British. This book in the West has been accused of West-bashing and Brit-bashing. But I think there were enough willing collaborators to make divide and rule possible. It?s an important point to remember. ? But the story of the subcontinent?s marginalised Muslims, or the demonised minority begins in 1857? The marginalisation of Muslims begins in 1857. What you get after 1857 is that the prestige attached to Mughal culture disappears. People are no longer interested in the whole gamut of Mughal attributes ? the old Mughal politeness is regarded as elaborate nonsense. Mughal poetry loses its high prestige and people want to write like Wordsworth and there?s a wonderful description by Azad when he says ? and the same thing you could say about America ? that once the British won in 1857, suddenly everything about them became attractive. Clothes that were laughed at before suddenly seemed very attractive, their modes of education and so on. And you find that the Mughal culture shrinks in prestige and shrinks in its attractiveness and more and more people want to go into English language education. The most crucial thing is that the same year Ghalib dies is the year when Mahatma Gandhi is born. So you have one world going down and there is this new English educated, English-speaking world rising up. It?s that world which wins India?s independence. It isn?t the old feudal elite. It is the products of Anglicised schools and using, in many ways, the Western political methods, political parties, protest marches rather than, you know, a mass uprising. ? And the decline of Muslims that begins in 1857, then in some ways is completed in 1947, when the elite leave to go to Pakistan. I was reading one of your essays after 9/11. You talk about an inscription from Jesus at Buland Darwaza at Fatehpur Sikri and then you say ?The Islam I love seems to be in danger.? The inscription on Buland Darwaza is worth pondering on because this again is one of the great Muslim entrances. An entrance to a mosque, a fantastic monument of Islamic architecture and yet it quotes Jesus: ?The world is like a bridge. Cross over it but do not build a house upon it.? There has always been this tradition in Islam of quoting sayings of Jesus and Jesus has been revered as a prophet. I think the relationship between Christianity and Islam is like a half-empty glass of wine. Do you look at it as half-empty or half-full? ? Well, that?s more complicated because we have lived together also for a long time. But you lived sometimes in bloodshed and sometimes in harmony. ? And sometimes in both. This is true. See Akbar is also the most spectacular example of a Muslim ruler who is pluralistic, liberal, looks to all religions. ? I found it more interesting because people have to figure it out that Islam is not all Taliban. Well, there are many Islams. ? And the way to understand Islam is not just through the car bomb or the human bomb. It?s more complex. Well, and the same is true of Christianity and the same is true of Hinduism. Not every Hindu is Bal Thackeray. But what is certainly true is that at the moment is that certain extremists of the Islamic world are getting over headlines. And people forget about, in the West people are not aware of the Sufi traditions. ? Tell me, if Ambika Soni were to call you tomorrow and say, ?William Dalrymple, you know more about Delhi?s history than the rest of us. Name five spots that we need to preserve and build and we?ve got a blank cheque.? Which five? First one is of course the saddest monument in Delhi, the Red Fort. The damages were mainly done by the British. It?s not your fault that it is in the state that it is but it badly needs... ? And we had sixty years to fix it? You had sixty years of fix it. And you haven?t done anything about that. Tuglaqabad is still decaying, Purana Qila, any of these. ? What others? Well, there are so many. Roshanarabagh, which is a great Mughal garden, is in terrible state now. What other monuments? I mean Zafar Mahal could do with a facelift. May be Coronation Park in the far north, one imperial monument. But I hope with the 1857 anniversary some money would be put to preserve some of the 1857 sites. For example, way out on the Rohtak road is the Badli ki Sarai which is now next to the new sabzi mandi, the new vegetable market. Now this is the site where one of the most important battles of 1857 was fought but there?s no signpost to it. It is used as a public urinal. ? I only hope Ambika Soni is hearing and reading your book. I think your book should be the essential reading for our children and grandchildren.

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/24227._.html xxx

[apocalypse]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry What do u mean by Jihadi Hindus?

[Lurker]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

What do u mean by Jihadi Hindus?

Right wingers, fans of Modi, Thackeray, Bajrang Dals etc etc.

[apocalypse]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

What do u mean by Jihadi Hindus?

Right wingers, fans of Modi, Thackeray, Bajrang Dals etc etc.

There is a difference between fanatics and jihadis

[Lurker]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

BTW when did Savarkar Get the oppurtunity to narrate India's History ... considering how the Left leaning Nehru did all the honors and its his version that is still taught in schools post 1947 ?

Why dont we do it this way BB. I have ordered the Darlymple book and when that arrives I shall write a bit from that. Seems like an interesting book, to me anyway, regardless of what viewpoints one has. Can you dig up Savarkar books somehow? That way we can have a more meaningful discussion on this? xxx

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

And ohhh the Red fort was not built by the Mughals ...

Here we go again. Apparently the mughals built notihng and jacked everything from the hindus. I guess thats what happens when you believe nutters like Savarkar. :wall: