The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

to admit there is even a remote possibility that islam is not the perfect or best religion

Err by that logic, there is no religion. You will find very few muslims who'd admit the possibility that Islam is not perfect. Just like you will find very few Chrisitians who'd admit the possibility that Jesus was not God's son. Or that Ram was an ordinary bloke. So whats the point ? You can't expect someone to believe in something wholeheartedly unless they thought it was right in the first place !!

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

to admit there is even a remote possibility that islam is not the perfect or best religion

Err by that logic, there is no religion. You will find very few muslims who'd admit the possibility that Islam is not perfect. Just like you will find very few Chrisitians who'd admit the possibility that Jesus was not God's son. Or that Ram was an ordinary bloke. So whats the point ? You can't expect someone to believe in something wholeheartedly unless they thought it was right in the first place !!

Err Jesus or Ram is not Christianity or Hinduism, same way md isn't Islam, unless of course we all missed some exclusive grammar lecutre. Just because many christians are just as extreme as muslims doesn't validate their extremism. And err again, you're wrong even then. Tell that jesus, ram or md are not divine rather normal human being to christians, hindus or muslims, what do you think would happen to you? I can guess you'll figure out some impossible scenario which only makes me believe some people who said Vancouver pot is the best. And I won't be surprised by your bs again, given that you could think of gems like same probability of people getting killed in india for apostasy just like in muslim countries. And before you go pedantic again, what was your point then? You always keep harping about how muslims are as liberal as hindus. Just wondering how? Someone already left the tolerance as a measure of that. I just gave you another scenario and the answer should be quite easy to figure out unless you've been in a cave for your whole life or overdosing on pot for a long time.

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry And just for the record, I personally always have had my doubts about the divinity of ram, but it doesn't belittle the teachings of ramayana one bit for me. I don't need imaginary angels flying down from heaven to utter god's words to uneducated (even by the standard of that time) people to have any values. Who would've thought that a "jihadi" hindu would think this way? Now if only the "educated progressive" muslims would open their mouth about war crimes, sex mania, pedophilia etc.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

What ? Absolutism is not about having reference point -without which there is simply no basis of comparison. If you claim to be thinking similar to enlightenment era thinkers but your viewpoints are in direct conflict with *the* biggest proponents of enlightenment philosophy - such as Voltaire or JJ Rosseau, then you are not an enlightenment thinker ! Similarly, if you claim to know and more importantly, understand hinduism but your viewpoints are in direct error to *the* hindu scholar of modern times - Vivekananda, you are in error.

Pardon me , but rubbish logic here. Pacificism is one aspect of Hinduism of which you and Vivekananda are proponents of . He (Savarkar)may not know Pacisifism aspect , but surely he may know Hindusim and you may know only Pacifism apect ,but not Hinduism . Again , your claim that you know and he doesn't is wrong.

Yes. All the time. But its just a thought, not a conviction.

Better make it a conviction. You claim to know and claim others do not know , when the fact could be , you do not know and others know. Savarkar in this case.

Irrelevant. What applies to Arjuna is different from what applies to COMMON MORTAL HUMANS ! Arjuna was a half-God-avatar. Different playing field, different rules - and it is said so in hinduism too. Which is why all hindu scholars before the new-age ignorant hinduvta movement began, emphasized on not blind-copying or blind-application of legendary examples involving supernatural beings.

Arjuna fought like a human and the discourse was given for a human not for avatar. Same playing field , same rules , I say.

By that logic, its like saying 'since when does a christian have to follow the apostles to be considered a christian'. Religion is refenced by its proponents and the scholars in those religions. If you dont want to follow Vivekananda but still consider yourself a perfect hindu, you'd have to prove Vivekananda wrong first.

And if you don't want to follow Sri Krishna , then you have to prove Sri Krishna is wrong. Even Vivekanada won't dare to prove Krishna wrong. Again , you don't know if Savarkar knows, all you can claim is he doesn't know and you do , and this could be perfectly wrong because he could be the one who knows and you could be the one who doesn't.

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry LOL, KR, you don't know much about mr. know-it-all :hic:

[kumble_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

LOL' date=' KR, you don't know much about mr. know-it-all :hic:[/quote'] One can accuse Savarkar for being bigot , but to accuse him of lack of knowlege without any basis for it is ludicrous.

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

Again , your claim that you know and he doesn't is wrong.

In that case, this line of thought can be applied to anybody in any religion, given that religion is not an empirical science. However, in my opinion, if one claims that hinduism is not pacifistic, then the person knows naught about hinduism.

You claim to know and claim others do not know , when the fact could be , you do not know and others know. Savarkar in this case.

I am not saying i know more than Savarkar - i may/i may not. I am saying that Vivekananda did know more than this guy and since he contradicts Vivekananda, he will win no sympathy from me. Just like you don't contradict einstien in special relativity, you dont contradict vivekananda on hinduism unless you prove him in error first.

Arjuna fought like a human and the discourse was given for a human not for avatar. Same playing field , same rules , I say.

Not so. Vishnu Purana elaborates.

And if you don't want to follow Sri Krishna , then you have to prove Sri Krishna is wrong. Even Vivekanada won't dare to prove Krishna wrong.

Erroneous comparison IMO. Vivekananda was a regular joe in the same boat as us - trying to figure out hinduism. He just did it better than anyone else. So if vivekanda said 'no, you are understanding this wrong' or you happen to disagree with vivekananda, then its between you vs Vivekananda. Not vivekananda vs Krishna.

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

Tell that jesus, ram or md are not divine rather normal human being to christians, hindus or muslims, what do you think would happen to you?

Depending on where you are and to which sort of hindu/christian/muslim you make those comments to, you could meet with anything in between polite disagreement to getting your head lopped off.

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

LOL' date=' KR, you don't know much about mr. know-it-all :hic:[/quote'] One can accuse Savarkar for being bigot , but to accuse him of lack of knowlege without any basis for it is ludicrous.

The basis is his contradiction of the most knowledgable hindu scholar of the past 500 years without proving that scholar to be in error first. :wall:

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

You always keep harping about how muslims are as liberal as hindus.

No,i don't. I've expressed my displeasure towards Islam several times here. However, i do not believe in exgaggerated demonising of all aspects of Islam as some tend to do here. And my point was, once you take ambition or poverty out of the equation - ie, negate the really poor, illiterate ones and the really rich,powerful and agenda-driven ones and focus on the middle class, there is remarkably little difference in attitudes and responses to various religious scenarios.

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

Tell that jesus' date=' ram or md are not divine rather normal human being to christians, hindus or muslims, what do you think would happen to you?[/quote'] Depending on where you are and to which sort of hindu/christian/muslim you make those comments to, you could meet with anything in between polite disagreement to getting your head lopped off.

I'm talking about the very middle. Although I'll say may be you won't get your head chopped off by middle class muslims, but they'll oppose you vehemently and may be beat you up, try it at your own risk, I'm talking from experience (didn't get into physical fight though, but was close). And again the % of muslims, christians and hindus who'd kill you for saying that is significantly different whether you like it or not. And 10% is not comparable to 90%, just to get you some idea, not claiming it's the correct exact %, unlike some here. But reality check should suggest it's quite close to figures like that.

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

You always keep harping about how muslims are as liberal as hindus.

No,i don't. I've expressed my displeasure towards Islam several times here. However, i do not believe in exgaggerated demonising of all aspects of Islam as some tend to do here. And my point was, once you take ambition or poverty out of the equation - ie, negate the really poor, illiterate ones and the really rich,powerful and agenda-driven ones and focus on the middle class, there is remarkably little difference in attitudes and responses to various religious scenarios.

Again, I'm talking about the middle class, and you're very wrong. As a very simple example challenged you and shwetabh in the other forum to ask the muslim posters here about their religion. As you might've noticed one reply already about how "liberal" they can be. Others who are not replying have at least the same "liberalness" in their mind. Hell, I've even queried phds about this, and never could get any muslim even close to saying that yeah it's possible that koran really isn't the words of god or is not perfect or best. Try it yourself, but at your own risk. On the other hand they'll start BS about how scientific koran is, i'm sure many here think the same way.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

In that case, this line of thought can be applied to anybody in any religion, given that religion is not an empirical science. However, in my opinion, if one claims that hinduism is not pacifistic, then the person knows naught about hinduism.

And your opinion and is wrong and irrelevant. Hinduism is for Dharma over Adharma . Please read your history about Mahabharat , Ramayan etc. Good truimphs over Evil and sometimes battles are fought for achieving it . Krishna /Kamsa , Ram/Ravan , Pandava/Kaurava etc. are few exampes.

I am not saying i know more than Savarkar - i may/i may not. I am saying that Vivekananda did know more than this guy and since he contradicts Vivekananda, he will win no sympathy from me. Just like you don't contradict einstien in special relativity, you dont contradict vivekananda on hinduism unless you prove him in error first.

Yes , you did claim that you know Hinduism and he does not. Read our old posts. And even in this post , according you since Sarvarkar does not agree with Pacifism , he knows nada about Hinduism and you claim you do , since you follow it. Einstein never would have noticed special relativity and the fact that Newton's equations don't acount for e=mc^2. So , does it mean Newton doesn't know science. He was wrong in one aspect , but right in lot of other aspects like gravity. Just like Pacifism is one aspect of Hinduism which is right.

Erroneous comparison IMO. Vivekananda was a regular joe in the same boat as us - trying to figure out hinduism. He just did it better than anyone else. So if vivekanda said 'no, you are understanding this wrong' or you happen to disagree with vivekananda, then its between you vs Vivekananda. Not vivekananda vs Krishna.

No , it is not between vivekananda vs Krishna , it is between you and Sarvarkar. You claim to know Hinduism and he doesn't , and I am stating that you don't know if he knows or not knows. All you know is he could be a Bigot. But so could be members of muslim league. So why accuse only RSS/VHP .

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

Krishna /Kamsa , Ram/Ravan , Pandava/Kaurava etc. are few exampes.

Common point you miss in ALL those examples : It was (if you believe in hinduism that is) Gods vs Demons and such like. This is the same reason why hinduism believes that in times of great evil, an avatar of the Lord would be born to rid the world of the evil - like Krisha for Kamsa or Ram for Ravana or Narasimha for Hiranyakashipu(sp?). Ie, it is NOT your job to rid the world of evil. Your job, as a hindu, is to follow the dharmic path and lead the life as per guided. This is the reason Hinduism does NOT ask its followers to go rid the world of adharm. To be dharmic is to lead a life of dharma. Not to battle adharma by any means necessary. That, for a hindu, is the job of the Kalki avatar. I fail to see why so many here would contest this, since this is very very clearly spelt out in several hindu holy texts.

And even in this post , according you since Sarvarkar does not agree with Pacifism , he knows nada about Hinduism and you claim you do , since you follow it.

Err no. I don't follow hinduism - i am not a hindu. I said he knows nada about hinduism because Sarvarkar was millitant and millitancy has ZERO PLACE in hinduism. This is categoric and established in the hindu texts and stressed upon by EVERY SINGLE hindu scholar from the past before this 'new age hinduvta nonsense' took off. So, even though i think this guy (Savarkar) knows squat from just reading his stuff, the fact that his stuff is contradicted by not one but SEVERAL of far far more established and influential hindu teachers in the past puts his stuff in even more ridiculous realms in my eyes.

and I am stating that you don't know if he knows or not knows.

And i am stating that he doesnt know his stuff if his stuff contradicts the greatest hindu mind of the last 500 years without even proving that this great mind (vivekananda) was wrong. It is quite simple really. If your viewpoints are different from an erstwhile established scholar, inorder to prove your viewpoints are right, you must first challenge the established scholar's viewpoint and prove it wrong. Sarvarkar or the legions of fundie hinduvtaas don't even bother proving or debating Vivekananda - they just make assinine assumptions and leaps of logic with the rote 'this is what it means to be a hindu' slogan attached to it which totally cotradicts vivekananda. And if you think Sarvarkar is a greater thinker than Vivekananda and understands hinduism better, you can live in that blissful oblivion. I won't contest it.

So why accuse only RSS/VHP .

Where did i say it was only RSS/VHP that were the problem ??? Look, as i said many times before, i am a buddhist and i come from a hindu family. I am much more interested in hinduism/buddhism/jainism than Islam/Christianity and therefore, i am far far more concerned about how these religions/philosophies progresses than what Islam is up to or what Jews are up to. One reason hinduism is losing its integrity is because we have too many wannabe islamic experts in hinduism, who are more interested in trying to show down Islam or denounce muslims than concentrating on ridding the cobwebs from our dharmic philosophies and progressing them. So yes, it concerns me far more on a personal level when hindus turn radical. I don't care how 'less radical' they are compared to 'other radicals' - when something or someone close to you starts to falter even a little bit, you are more hurt/concerned than a purely hypothetical issue concerning a stranger you don't know. In other words, i am far more interested in discussing and eliminating even the 'minor ills' in hinduism or buddhism or jainism or sikkhism than dwelling on Islam or Christianity and their version of fundie nutters.

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

As a very simple example challenged you and shwetabh in the other forum to ask the muslim posters here about their religion.

I do not get your point. Obviously a muslim will not admit easily that Islam isnt perfect. The same way a christian won't admit that Jesus isnt son of God or Ram is Vishnu avatar for a hindu. I cannot see how expressing doubt over one's religion is the benchmark for moderation : for all religions involve a degree of blind faith. So why are you asking a muslim to demonstrate his/her 'moderation' by saying Islam isnt perfect when the average hindu or christian or jew or buddhist would not concede the same grounds for his/her religion ?!?

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

I do not get your point. Obviously a muslim will not admit easily that Islam isnt perfect. The same way a christian won't admit that Jesus isnt son of God or Ram is Vishnu avatar for a hindu. I cannot see how expressing doubt over one's religion is the benchmark for moderation : for all religions involve a degree of blind faith. So why are you asking a muslim to demonstrate his/her 'moderation' by saying Islam isnt perfect when the average hindu or christian or jew or buddhist would not concede the same grounds for his/her religion ?!?

Not quite right. Many hindus will concede scriptures are not perfect, and that with time some parts of those may be outdated, add to that very tolerant nature of hindu scriptures, and you can see why hindus are tolerant than muslims christians or jews. On the other hand no muslim will ever think anything less than koran being perfect even with so many holes in it. If you think this sort of faith is exactly the same as hindus then it's no use. And so far it seems to be beyond your comprehension.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

Common point you miss in ALL those examples : It was (if you believe in hinduism that is) Gods vs Demons and such like. This is the same reason why hinduism believes that in times of great evil, an avatar of the Lord would be born to rid the world of the evil - like Krisha for Kamsa or Ram for Ravana or Narasimha for Hiranyakashipu(sp?). Ie, it is NOT your job to rid the world of evil. Your job, as a hindu, is to follow the dharmic path and lead the life as per guided. This is the reason Hinduism does NOT ask its followers to go rid the world of adharm. To be dharmic is to lead a life of dharma. Not to battle adharma by any means necessary. That, for a hindu, is the job of the Kalki avatar.

Looks like you are losing the plot here, mate.I know it doesn't cost you anything to post rubbish, but please do so in a miserly manner. It is the duty of every hindu and for that matter anybody else to fight for the good and ward off evil. Every religion preaches this universal truth. Looks like after converting, you have a forgotten your hinduism. It is not adharmic to fight evil. It is not adharmic to fight for your rights. It is not adharmic to fight for justice. It is not adharmic to go to war to fight evil.

Err no. I don't follow hinduism - i am not a hindu. I said he knows nada about hinduism because Sarvarkar was millitant and millitancy has ZERO PLACE in hinduism. This is categoric and established in the hindu texts and stressed upon by EVERY SINGLE hindu scholar from the past before this 'new age hinduvta nonsense' took off. So, even though i think this guy (Savarkar) knows squat from just reading his stuff, the fact that his stuff is contradicted by not one but SEVERAL of far far more established and influential hindu teachers in the past puts his stuff in even more ridiculous realms in my eyes.

I know you don't follow hinduism . But don't take cheap shots at it all the time and preach others not do so regarding Islam. I have no problems if Hinduism get's criticized , heck even I do so, but your holier than thou attitude is quite frankly annoying to say the least. Don't make Hindu scholars sound like wimps. They were not ! Again , criticize Savarkar if you must for being a bigot , but to suggest that he does not know Hinduism is ludicrous.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

I do not get your point. Obviously a muslim will not admit easily that Islam isnt perfect. The same way a christian won't admit that Jesus isnt son of God or Ram is Vishnu avatar for a hindu. I cannot see how expressing doubt over one's religion is the benchmark for moderation : for all religions involve a degree of blind faith. So why are you asking a muslim to demonstrate his/her 'moderation' by saying Islam isnt perfect when the average hindu or christian or jew or buddhist would not concede the same grounds for his/her religion ?!?

Not quite right. Many hindus will concede scriptures are not perfect, and that with time some parts of those may be outdated, add to that very tolerant nature of hindu scriptures, and you can see why hindus are tolerant than muslims christians or jews. On the other hand no muslim will ever think anything less than koran being perfect even with so many holes in it. If you think this sort of faith is exactly the same as hindus then it's no use. And so far it seems to be beyond your comprehension.

Most hindu posters here concede that Hindu scriptures are imperfect. But to suggest otherwise by posters like CC , is dishonest to the core. Some o f the Hindu posters here including yours truely routinely criticize our draconian customs like sati,caste system,manu smriti , varnashram dharma etc. I have never seen CC and muslims posters own up to draconian customs in their religion like polygamy, burqa etc. On the contrary all of them claim that their religion is perfect.

[Anakin]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry No they are best at making wild claims as hindus are ignorant, muslims are as liberal as hindus, probability of hindus killing others for apostasy is the same as for muslims even in their sharia law enabled countries, there is nothing wrong with sharia, dubai is as progressive and liberal as india, etc. Some of them just go away after proclaiming these, while few love to debate just for the sake of it ignoring reality any way possible.

[CC1981]

Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry

revisit that thread where I explained to you the reason for the KShatriya and what their purpose in life is

Their purpose is protection of the masses. Not pre-emptive strikes or opression of others. Its proactive and defensive, not reactive and aggressional.

also read up on the Parashuram avatar and what happens to the Kshatriyas who dont do their duty ..

Yet another example on how it is the job of a God avatar to deal with those who don't do their duty. Not yours or mine.

And could you be any more wrong about waiting for Kalki to get rid of the evil

Incorrect.

the avatars are usually undertaken when the "Good men" arent able to deal with Evil

It is undertaken when there is a scenario resulting in action that could lead to a lot of deaths/suffering. Need a being of superior Karma, hence the avatars. Good men are supposed to deal with evil by setting an example of peaceful existance and spreading their words, not talwaar-bandook dishum dishum seeking out evil bad ones to defeat.