CC1981 Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry It is the duty of every hindu and for that matter anybody else to fight for the good and ward off evil No it is not. If it were, Hindus too would be crusaders. The very fact that it is explicitly mentioned in our puraans that we are NOT ultimate moral authorities and inorder to fight good and evil, one needs the ultimate moral authority (such as an avatar, HENCE its the avatar that rids the world of evil, not us). It is not adharmic to fight evil. It is not adharmic to fight for your rights. It is not adharmic to fight for justice. It is not adharmic to go to war to fight evil. It isnt in a totally defensive and proactive category. But it is when pre-empting or meddling in other people's lands. And it is not adharmic to fight for justice or fight 'evil' - IF you had the knowledge and the karma to discern evil from good and see all possible angles : which you cannot. Hence the avatar- AGAIN ! The problems identified by the neo-hinduvta movements are (mostly, lot of exgaggerations exist) very real and they are correct that it needs to be dealt with. But their solution to the problem is in error in my opinion. Don't make Hindu scholars sound like wimps. They were not ! Hindu scholars arnt wimps - they are respected figures of authority in my book. However, wannabe psuedo-intellectual hindu scholars like savarkar and the RSS/VHP are wimps. I have no problems with the 'aam hindu' or traditional hinduism in a decentralized fashion. But centralized hinduism in the hands of modern day neo-conservative hinduvta is the biggest evil Hinduism has dreamt up since caste/sati as far as i am concerned. One reason genuine Indian authors and viewpoints get discredited because the neo-con hinduvtas exgaggerate it absurdly and are agenda-driven rather than simply being driven by Satyameva Jayate. Most hindu posters here concede that Hindu scriptures are imperfect. So what ? A hindu or any other religious person will concede just as much as their religion allows them to without breaking faith. Hinduism is not scripturally based - no book is the ultimate authority. So a Hindu can say 'sure, Gita isnt perfect'. But a hindu cannot diss Ram. A muslim or a christian's first rule is to believe that their book is perfect. hence they will not diss their 'perfect book'. All i am saying is don't ask a muslim to question the validity of his book as a default position : one cannot be muslim and challenge the validity of the Koran which explicitly claims to be perfect. Sure, you can get the person to realize that it isnt a perfect book but it is unrealistic to expect that a muslim would make that admission all on his/her own. Just like it is unrealistic for a hindu to realize that there is no God all on his/her own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry Most hindu posters here concede that Hindu scriptures are imperfect. So what ? A hindu or any other religious person will concede just as much as their religion allows them to without breaking faith. Hinduism is not scripturally based - no book is the ultimate authority. So a Hindu can say 'sure, Gita isnt perfect'. But a hindu cannot diss Ram. A muslim or a christian's first rule is to believe that their book is perfect. hence they will not diss their 'perfect book'.Yet more BS, but what's new. A hindu can diss Ram just as easily as Gita though one may not want to. But the point is a hindu or anyone can diss everything about hinduism to almost any hindu and still will be fine. Whereas you can probably do the same to <1% of muslims and more % of christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry A hindu can diss Ram just as easily as Gita though one may not want to. But the point is a hindu or anyone can diss everything about hinduism to almost any hindu and still will be fine Ok i see your point. But we are talking about two different things i suppose. You are seeing it as a personal security aspect while i thought you meant from a philosophical aspect. Ie, yes you are right that a hindu will be just fine if he disses Ram unless like he does it standing in the middle of Vaishnodevi or someplace. While a muslim who disses the Koran/Mohd. would be toast in almost all muslim communities. But i meant is that one will still no longer 'be' a hindu if he disses Ram and one won't still 'be' a muslim if he/she disses the Koran. Ie, you cannot do both at the same time because they are incompatible and contradictory. So i don't see how one can expect to come across muslims who are willing to admit the koran isnt perfect bec. one would not BE a muslim if he/she thought the Koran isnt perfect. Its the same phenomenon in every religion : you cannot violate a fundamental clause and still be part of it. Thats all i am trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry Sweet Jesus in Heaven. CC ,you are quickly losing the plot here and the quality of your post is taking a free fall southwards. I have a feeling even you do not believe in some of the things that you are write. It's very difficult to debate somebody whose thought process is so different and which defies every conventional wisdom. You need to realize that even the enlightenment thinkers like Voltaire fought against oppression , fought against Adharma , fought against perceived evil. Fighting for Dharma does not make us a muslim fundo or crusaders like the way you suggest. And the very fact that you converted tells me that your perceived path of Vivekanada's teaching is bogus or you are bogus. So what's it gonna be ? Finally , you certainly do not know whether RSS?VHP is a psuedo-intellectual hindu scholars or a real one. You certainly do not know if savarkar knows his Hinduism or not. You can accuse him for being Bigot , a muderer etc but NOT as person who lacks knowledge .And RSS/VHP are as much wimps as members of muslim league or maoist organisation. Now , if you set a different barometer for what a hindu can concede or any other religious person will concede without breaking faith, then please set a Barometer on the degree of Fanatism/Fatalism in a religion. Going your logic one can also concede that people following Abrahamic faith are more rigid and fanatic than a Hindu ever will be. So , if few Hindus form RSS/VHP , to accuse them of being neo-conservative is akin to accuse Muslims of being fanatic. And this can be deduced from yor own logic which says Hindus can concede much more on their religion versus others. Therefore, an average Muslim is much more Fundo than a average Hindu. THerefore , an average Muslim equals RSS/VHP member in degree of fanatism . Am I right in my assessment ??Please humor me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry You need to realize that even the enlightenment thinkers like Voltaire fought against oppression , fought against Adharma , fought against perceived evil. They fought through the power of the pen, not the power of the sword. And the very fact that you converted tells me that your perceived path of Vivekanada's teaching is bogus or you are bogus. So what's it gonna be ? No i didn't find Vivekananda's teachings bogus - infact Vivekananda himself was a great admirer of Buddha and respected Buddhist philosophy. And unlike the neo-con fundie hinduvtas, Vivekananda had no problem admitting the buddhist contribution or jain contribution towards hinduism, instead of trying to hog all the credit. Indeed, reading vivekananda oriented me a lot towards buddhism. I disagree with Vivekananda only when it comes to ways for seeking Moksha and i think buddha's method was better. But amongst hindu works, vivkenanda is one of the few who i admire. you certainly do not know whether RSS?VHP is a psuedo-intellectual hindu scholars or a real one. In my OPINION, they are. Any comment about the perception of an organization is, ultimately, an opinion. And this is an opinion i believe i can justify when i have more time or inclination to. You certainly do not know if savarkar knows his Hinduism or not In my OPINION, he does not and i've provided reason for that opinion. .And RSS/VHP are as much wimps as members of muslim league or maoist organisation. Agreed. Now , if you set a different barometer for what a hindu can concede or any other religious person will concede without breaking faith, then please set a Barometer on the degree of Fanatism/Fatalism in a religion. I already have and i already said that the muslims are more fanatical but that is because of Islam's potential to do great harm - this is the aspect that takes root in the extremely powerful or extremely poor islamists but the middle class of any community is more or less comparable than not in terms of attitude. However, it doesn't negate the argument that expecting a muslim to admit the koran to be an imperfect book by default is a self contradictory position. Going your logic one can also concede that people following Abrahamic faith are more rigid and fanatic than a Hindu ever will be. WIll be ? I am not into futuristic predictions but anything and everything is possible. So far they havn't been but the hinduvta nonsense that's started to take hold of India since Indira Gandhi's time doesnt bode well for the track record. The multitude of hinduvtas here who don't mind demolishion of mosques or taking the war to the enemy and waging the crusade is ample evidence for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry We dont even engage in "defensive" strikes We've defended our nation in wars recently quite well. and didnt you say we need to bolt at the first sign of trouble That'd be the prudent thing to do. or wait for Vishnu to take avatar and save the human kind. If you want to fight the muslims, then yes, wait for Kalki. Kindly provide links to subsantiate your claims. I couldnt find any such in the monks site. I have already asked you to read vivekananda's works. I doubt you've read them completely and i have posted them here. I gave you ample verses to substantiate my claim Verses that you do not understand well. Selective quoting the Geeta to support a fundie principle is no different than selectively quoting the koran or the bible to support a similar hateful agenda. Two peas in a pod i say. You have also so far eluded some pointed questions about what it says in the Gita when Arjuna puts down his weapons ... and also about the Pandavas willingness to forgo all the pleasures but for Krishnas insistence to not do so as it would be against their Dharma .... Remember all that ? Yes. So do what the Pandavas did when you find yourself a Krishna avatar to guide you. Krishna's reasoning was he being the supreme Godhead could guide the pandavas (Since now the pandavas picked him and not his army) to the right path. AGAIN- a God avatar, not a mere human taking matters into hand when the stakes are the highest. If you want to do as Arjuna did, find yourself a guide like Krishna first. Otherwise you do not have the authority to. This much would be evident if you bother with the Karma Yoga portion of the gita. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry I disagree with Vivekananda only when it comes to ways for seeking Moksha and i think buddha's method was better. But amongst hindu works, vivkenanda is one of the few who i admire. Buddha's method is certainly better. Selfishly marry, have a wife and young child and then instead of accepting household responsibilities , scour nirvana. No wonder , Hinduism is far better in my opinion. We have 4 distinct stages of life with Brahmachari being the last. Looks like Buddha superachiever . He reached the last stage in just two stages. Road scholar I must say. :hic: Just kidding , man . Hindusim also sucks equally. In fact , all religion are illogical ,in my opinion with some more than other. My motto, accept the supernatural and move on . For me, the supernatural is Vishnu, for some it is Jesus, for some it is Allah. I am fine with that. Now, coming back to topic at hand, I think your idea of Hinduism is too ideal and I am happy that you converted. I hope you find your truth through Buddhism. I certainly find it more appealing than Abhrahmic religion except christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry Selfishly marry ??? have a wife and young child and then instead of accepting household responsibilities , scour nirvana. [/qutoe] Which benifitted himself, his wife, his child and millions of human beings around the planet immensely. Looking at the greater good is no sin. I hope you find your truth through Buddhism. I certainly find it more appealing than Abhrahmic religion except christianity. Thank you - i wish you the same on your road to truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Re: The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry I don't see lurker's 1857 mutiny spin by Dalrymple thread so would use this thread to put my point across.. That article as usual was hihg on emotions mediocre on facts and baloney on conclusions. 1857 by no stretch of imagination was independence movement, this independence movement tag came as an after-thought other wise from kunwar singh to Jahnsi Ki rani all were trying to save their own little riyasat. Yes mostly hindu rulers did come under a geriatric moghal king and I am not susrprised at all Hindus have always been accomodating even today supposedly the most extremist ones like togadia keep sending message of accomodation only to be spurned time and again. Little do they know this beast knows only one thing complete subjugation of the rest eventually parity they never sought. As long as they were ascendant and rest in dhimmi state everythign was fine and dandy but the momnet maratha challenged their writ pide-piper pf islamist from that era sent invitation to Abdali for attacking India. What a unique love for this country they had . :-) Jinnah saheb and his ideological guru Saiyad Ahmed Khan were oke unde rbiritish yoker they used to fear the independence and whence hindu majority. Such was their love for India.:-) And yes when it comes to comparative credibility of Dalrymple or flintoff and Ambedkar on indian history later's view will always be worth much more. If u are nto convinced well then let me know will proccure the CV for comparison sake. :wtg: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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