Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

If Christians are the most illogical bunch,then how do you explain the most logical form of government i,e Social Democracy that is prevalent in mostly Christian countries.

Because they arn't christian and gave up christianity ! Social democracies- lets see- that'd be Canada, Iceland, Norway,Sweden, Denmark. All countries where church attendance is around 10% or less. Canada is predominantly atheist. People often tick the religion boxes anyways these days bec. in the 70s many picked atheist and the catholic church went apeshit with door to door annoying prosthelysations.

No Sir, they are officially listed as Christians. In fact , take the case of Canada, 2001 census lists 71 % of it's citizens identify themselves as Christians. And let's not forget that Social Democracy is based upon the principles of Jeudo Christanity. So , one can conclude that Christianity is the most progressive religion in the world and hardly illogical , I must add.

[CC1981]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

In fact , take the case of Canada, 2001 census lists 71 % of citizens identify themselves as Christians

I told you why. Hell, in 2006 census, a lot of my friends who never go to church picked christian. It keeps the door-to-door-annoyance away. I can tell you for a fact that practicing/believing Christians are very very few in Canada and ironically, in Vancouver, we have more chinese/korean christians than white christians.

And let's not forget that Social Democracy is based upon the principles of Jeudo Christanity.

It is not. Judeo-Christian philosophy is not deep enough to provide any cohesive economic guidelines.

So , one can conclude that Christianity is the most progressive religion in the world and hardly illogical , I must add.

Ironic thing is, the rise of western power on a global scale ( late 1700s, early 1800s) coincided with a remarkable drop in christian zeal across the west and taking hold of libertarian values.

[Lurker]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker KR, Within USA if you look around then the states with more religious Christian population, what is predominantly defined as Bible Belt, are almost all ranked lowest by most barometers. Be it education, per capita income, health benefits etc there is a greater chance of finding a Missauri and Alabama than a Massachussetts. Religious Christians generally come across as good people with strong values. I have spent a few years in Bible belt and have never had a problem. Thanks perhaps to the whole laizzez-fair thing. However there has been instance when the discussion has turned religious(I generally stay away from such conversations) and I have felt not only a strong fervour for their own religion, but also a feeling of rank dismissiveness towards other religions, sometimes almost hostile. Also do remember that the poorest segment of American population - Hispanics and African American are generally very religious group. xxx

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

It is not. Judeo-Christian philosophy is not deep enough to provide any cohesive economic guidelines.

My point is Social Democracy is based on Judeo-Christian philosphy and this is proclaimed even in the constitutional charters of USA and Canada. I am concerned with only the social aspect, the framework for which is provided by Judeo-Christian philosphy. Economic guidelines are provided by legislative and governmental branches. It is pretty aparent that Christanity is much more progressive than any other religion as can be seen by the bill of rights provided in Western democracies.

[CC1981]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

My point is Social Democracy is based on Judeo-Christian philosphy and this is proclaimed even in the constitutional charters of USA and Canada.

Thats called appeasement buddy. But in reality,social democracy has nothing to do with christianity.

I am concerned with only the social aspect, the framework for which is provided by Judeo-Christian philosphy.

The level to which judeo-christianity addresses the social aspect is very very topical compared to even Islam,let alone other religions.

It is pretty aparent that Christanity is much more progressive than any other religion as can be seen by the bill of rights provided in Western democracies.

Arrey baba, the western democracies became democracies and introduced the bill of rights AFTER christianity started to fade ! its all mid 1800s stuff- when people finally realized that Darwin made more sense than Adam and Eve. Christianity starting to collapse = individual rights and eglatarian systems rising. THat is an unmistakable correlation across entire western world that makes christian claim to progressive western philosophies to be ludicrous!

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

Thats called appeasement buddy. But in reality,social democracy has nothing to do with christianity.

The level to which judeo-christianity addresses the social aspect is very very topical compared to even Islam,let alone other religions.

I don't understand the appeasement angle, especially in the 17 th century. I don't know much about Canada , but definitely in USA , Madison and Co were religious christian folks who drafted the consititution based on Judeo-Christian philosphy. Their has been only 24 ammendments ( I believe) to the constitution in the last two hundred years which goes to show that the root is strong. Again , social democracy is based on the principle of judeo -christanity, You need to differentiate the theology and the actual philosophy here. I am talking more of the philosophy of the Christian religion " such as love you neighbor as you would love yourself and free will", thou shall not steal " etc. These commandments form the basis of US constitution. Therefore, I personally feel that Christanity cannot be clubbed as most illogical otherwise it's philosophy would not have been so logical vis a vis US constitution. Contrast that with Sharia which encourages "talaq talaq talaq", polygamy etc. That is more illogical to me.

[CC1981]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

I am talking more of the philosophy of the Christian religion " such as love you neighbor as you would love yourself and free will", thou shall not steal " etc. These commandments form the basis of US constitution

Look,those things are standard two line phrases strewn across the bible that every religion has. If love thy neighbour and free will is all it takes to proclaim it a christian philosophy, then hinduism too is christian philosophy. In reality, christianity has little or no core philosophy. Which is why almost all european philosophers worked outside of christianity. Those guys were christian, yes, but the philosophy they implemented was directly from the French revolution- which has nothing christian about itself. Christian worldview, by far, is the most illogical i've encountered.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

KR, Religious Christians generally come across as good people with strong values. I have spent a few years in Bible belt and have never had a problem. Thanks perhaps to the whole laizzez-fair thing. However there has been instance when the discussion has turned religious(I generally stay away from such conversations) and I have felt not only a strong fervour for their own religion, but also a feeling of rank dismissiveness towards other religions, sometimes almost hostile.

I think you have a valid point here. Even I have worked in Tennesse for a long time and have come across Religious Christians who are condescending towards other religions. But that hardly makes Christianity illogical which is the crux of my debate with CC. Far from it , I think it is one of the more logical abrahamic religion out there. The basis of US constitution is Judeo-Christanity. It's not as if Ameica was liberal in 17 th century. In fact America was much more conservative religious country back then and even Madison was supposed to be extremely religious. And we just have only 24 ammendments to the Constitution which was drafted in 17 th century by Madison and Co.

Also do remember that the poorest segment of American population - Hispanics and African American are generally very religious group.

I would agree here about Hispanics who are actually mostly catholic , but I don' t think African Americans are necessarily religious.

[Gaurav]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

But that hardly makes Christianity illogical which is the crux of my debate with CC. Far from it ' date=' I think it is one of the more logical abrahamic religion out there. [/quote'] Use your brain!?Do people get resurrected and fly to heaven? Please don't abuse the word "LOGIC"!!!!!

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

But that hardly makes Christianity illogical which is the crux of my debate with CC. Far from it ' date=' I think it is one of the more logical abrahamic religion out there. [/quote'] Use your brain!?Do people get resurrected and fly to heaven? Please don't abuse the word "LOGIC"!!!!!

Use your brain too ! Did Brahma create the Universe ? Does one Brahman year equals 4.3 Billion calender years? Does Vishnu have four hands? All religons are illogical if you see that way. I am just disputing CC's claim that Christanity is the most illogical religion.

[CC1981]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

But that hardly makes Christianity illogical which is the crux of my debate with CC. Far from it ' date=' I think it is one of the more logical abrahamic religion out there. [/quote'] Use your brain!?Do people get resurrected and fly to heaven? Please don't abuse the word "LOGIC"!!!!!

Use your brain too ! Did Brahma create the Universe ? Does one Brahman year equals 4.3 Billion calender years? Does Vishnu have four hands? All religons are illogical if you see that way. I am just disputing CC's claim that Christanity is the most illogical religion.

Look- i already explained to you that modern democracy has nothing whatsoever to do with christianity. Democracy, libertarianism, etc. are concepts that lie outside of a religion like Christianity. Hell, in ancient India, Greece, etc. we had democracies thousands of years before the west to similar eglatarian levels. So what Christianity has to do with libertarianism is beyond me. And this is not about who made this world or whether God has five hands or a brahma year being 4.3 billion years or whether Jahovah created this world in 7 days. Those are domain of beleif but who knows whether it is plausable or not. But judeo-christianity is the only faith stream where believers believe highly stupid shit like 'water floating around in space covering the whole world, protecting it from the sun' or 'adam and eve'. You are missing the entire point that the western democracy is because of declining beleif in Christianity. Martin Luther tore apart Catholocism in western/northern Europe in the 1500s and this led to a chaotic 1600s and early 1700s with a lot of 'hertical' wars and stuff. This led to the period known as 'age of enlightenment', where a lot of critical thinkers could freely speak their minds for the first time in christianity. This produced the american charter of independence as well as the french and italian revolutions. Finally, christianity experienced the biggest and most catastrophic decline in the west after Darwinism came to the fore. Pretty much only Ireland, US and NZ have any significant number of christians left in the western world who actually believe in this stuff or go to church. Look- forget what it says in the census- censuses are not very reliable simply because the amount of misinformation that gets put in it. Look at church attendance record- the very basic and easiest way of determining whether a person is a practicing christian or not. And the church record in most of the western world is around 10%.

[Gaurav]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

But that hardly makes Christianity illogical which is the crux of my debate with CC. Far from it ' date=' I think it is one of the more logical abrahamic religion out there. [/quote'] Use your brain!?Do people get resurrected and fly to heaven? Please don't abuse the word "LOGIC"!!!!!

Use your brain too ! Did Brahma create the Universe ? Does one Brahman year equals 4.3 Billion calender years? Does Vishnu have four hands? All religons are illogical if you see that way. I am just disputing CC's claim that Christanity is the most illogical religion.

Ummm! Where did I say that I believed all that? You tripping or something? Cause if you are then give me some gear as well :hic: I don't believe any religious crap as they are all fraud! I am free thinking Atheist :wtg:

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker CC , Please refer to this article for the Judeo-Christian Roots in US constitution. You don't deny that Madison was a religious christian , do you ?. All I am saying is to single out Christanity as the most illogical religion is wrong , whereas the truth of the matter is others are far worse. some excerpts - http://www.xmission.com/~nccs/newsletter/may03nl.html Principle: Separation of Church and State Judeo-Christian Roots "Render therefore unto C?sar the things which be C?sar's, and unto God the things which be God's." (Luke 20:25) American Founding Ideal: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. (First Amendment, U.S. Constitution) Judeo-Christian RootsPrinciple: Reliance on the Providence of God Principle: Teaching the Law of Liberty to Next Generation Judeo-Christian Roots "And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. (Deuteronomy 6:7) American Founding Ideal: "Let [the Constitution] be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges, let it be written in primers, in spelling books and in almanacs, let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation." (Abraham Lincoln, "The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions", January 27, 1838) Principle: Sanctity of Contract Judeo-Christian Roots "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth." (Numbers 30:2) American Founding Ideal: "No state shall.pass any. law impairing the obligation of contracts." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 10, Paragraph 1) Principle: Two Witnesses Judeo-Christian Roots "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death." (Deuteronomy 17:6) American Founding Ideal: "No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 1) Judeo-Christian Roots "For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones. And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee. Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 54:10 - 17) American Founding Ideal: "We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states; .. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." (Declaration of Independence. See also John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1987, pp. 355-377) Principle: Law of God forms basis of good human laws Judeo-Christian Roots "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. (Psalms 19:7 - 8) American Founding Ideal: "Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams, February 22, 1756 (Federer, William J., America's God and Country Encyclopedia Of Quotations , FAME Publishing, Coppell, Texas, 1994, p.5) "These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil .... This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this... "The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law, and they are to be found only in the holy scriptures ... [and] are found upon comparison to be really part of the original law of nature. Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these. William Blackstone (Federer, p.52) Principle: Religion and Morality form basis of Liberty

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

But that hardly makes Christianity illogical which is the crux of my debate with CC. Far from it ' date=' I think it is one of the more logical abrahamic religion out there. [/quote'] Use your brain!?Do people get resurrected and fly to heaven? Please don't abuse the word "LOGIC"!!!!!

Use your brain too ! Did Brahma create the Universe ? Does one Brahman year equals 4.3 Billion calender years? Does Vishnu have four hands? All religons are illogical if you see that way. I am just disputing CC's claim that Christanity is the most illogical religion.

Ummm! Where did I say that I believed all that? You tripping or something? Cause if you are then give me some gear as well :hic: I don't believe any religious crap as they are all fraud! I am free thinking Atheist :wtg:

Jesus ! If you are agreeing that all religion are illogical or can be percieved to be illogical , then what is your point. :shrug: :shrug: My point is can't single out Christianity (by CC) when their are others which are far worse.

[Lurker]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

I think it is one of the more logical abrahamic religion out there. The basis of US constitution is Judeo-Christanity. It's not as if Ameica was liberal in 17 th century. In fact America was much more conservative religious country back then and even Madison was supposed to be extremely religious. And we just have only 24 ammendments to the Constitution which was drafted in 17 th century by Madison and Co.

KR, I beleive you might be onto something here. Let me explain my understanding with an analogy. Mahatma Gandhi was a god-fearing Hindu but his actions, specially towards minorities, was hardly driven by Hinduism. In a way you can take it as the seperation of Church from State. The difference between Dharma and Rajniti. I beleive this has what has happened with Christian states. We can perhaps trace the shades of this to Magna Carta where for the first time Church was supposed to be kept away from rule of law in the land. Now this happened in 13th century but obviously it took time to flourish in its truest sense. But if you look at any of the French or American Revolution(or Russian for that matter) they were driven by Man's Emancipation and not any religious zeal. I think in this sense Christianity is very different from Islam where till today the revolutions(be it Iran or Afganistan) has a religious zing to it. It also makes me think that this may be one of the reasons why British rule in India does not invoke as much resentment as the Islamic rulers in India does. British ruled India much more recently, their rule was marred by rape and plunder of India, brutal murders as witnessed in Jallianwallah Bagh etc..but one thing they can not be criticized about was religious zealotness. The Brits did not rule as Christians in India but as English. They did not attack Hindus, or Muslims for that matter, solely on religion. True they did their own divide and rule thing but religion did not lead them to make decisions for them. I wonder if Indian history would be different if Brits had attacked at Indian religious roots instead of economic/political ones. Bear in mind that the first major revolution of 1857 came when the issue of cow-pig fat laden cartiridges surfaced. To summarise I would say indeed the Democratic, free-thinking thoughts has its roots in Christian ruled state but how much of that was due to the religion itself is open to debate. xxx

[CC1981]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

CC , Please refer to this article for the Judeo-Christian Roots in US constitution

It is in error.

You don't deny that Madison was a religious christian , do you ?

So ? So if today, me being a buddhist, i endorse a thoghtstream by Osama, Osama's thoughtstream becomes Buddhist ??

Principle: Separation of Church and State Judeo-Christian Roots "Render therefore unto C?sar the things which be C?sar's, and unto God the things which be God's." (Luke 20:25)

Who wrote this article ? The one who did is into revisionist history. Jefferson quoted Voltaire, a huge critic of Christianity. Not the bible. Rest of the quotes are all revisionist history that totally glosses over the fact that the US constitution is based on ideas that were thought by enlightenment thinkers like Voltaire, Russeau, Hume, Paine, etc. ALL of whom directly challenged the role of church and state,which previous to the enlightenment era, were the ONE AND THE SAME. It seems like there is some serious conservative revisionist history going around there. Oh and another thing - most of America's founding fathers - Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, etc. were not Christians but Deists.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker Good writeup, Lurker. I agree with your points regarding Gandhi and the British rule. In fact , like you mentioned British did not rule as religious zealots . In fact , that could be the reason why , the framework for Indian constitution was built around the Grand daddy of all the social democractic constitution which is the British one. I would agree that British rule does not invoke as much resentment as the Islamic rulers because they didn't advocate Christian rule in India. Now, CC's point about Christanity being the most illogical religion out there begs for debate , because just like you summarized Democratic, free-thinking thoughts has its roots in Christian ruled state and I feel this wouldn't have been possible if Christanity to what it had evolved in the last two hundred years was so illogical.

[CC1981]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

Now, CC's point about Christanity being the most illogical religion out there begs for debate , because just like you summarized Democratic, free-thinking thoughts has its roots in Christian ruled state and I feel this wouldn't have been possible if Christanity to what it had evolved in the last two hundred years was so illogical.

Democratic, free thinking thoughts in the west has its root in age of enlightenment and free thinkers like Voltaire, Paine, JJ Rosseau, etc. - ALL of whom were rabidly anti-christian. Democracy has been around and was in place in other parts of the world long before Christianity even came into existance. Ie, you are crediting the wrong guy by trying to credit Christianity for the democratic developments in the west, when in fact, it was ANTI-CHRISTIAN thinkers like the above who changed the mindset in the west. This is a basic fact that anybody who's taken Philosophy 101 knows. And this is precisely the point which right wingers cannot swallow. Infact, Christianity is NOT a democracy leaning faith- it is absolutist and absolutism cannot co-exist with democracy. 'Do unto ceaser whats his and do unto Lord whats his' refers to giving the state tax as well as dipping into your pocket for Sunday church. Not seperation of church and state- infact, NOT A SINGLE christian denomination believes to this day that governance and religion should be seperate.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

This is a basic fact that anybody who's taken Philosophy 101 knows. And this is precisely the point which right wingers cannot swallow. Infact, Christianity is NOT a democracy leaning faith- it is absolutist and absolutism cannot co-exist with democracy. 'Do unto ceaser whats his and do unto Lord whats his' refers to giving the state tax as well as dipping into your pocket for Sunday church. Not seperation of church and state- infact, NOT A SINGLE christian denomination believes to this day that governance and religion should be seperate.

Jesus. CC, no need to be so condescending. You accuse other posters on that count, and please tell me what are you doing here ?. You are living in a dream world if you think that America in the 17 th Century was not conservative christian country.These guys were hard-core christians who wore their belief on their sleeve. But , I partly agree that french revolutionist ideas of Voltaire , Rosseau etc were also used in building the framework for US constitution. You are again confusing theology with philosophy when it comes to Christanity . If you choose not to believe that US consitution has it's roots on Judeo-Christanity principle , then that is okay with me. But I am afraid, you are gravely wrong here.

Democracy has been around and was in place in other parts of the world long before Christianity even came into existance. Ie, you are crediting the wrong guy by trying to credit Christianity for the democratic developments in the west, when in fact, it was ANTI-CHRISTIAN thinkers like the above who changed the mindset in the west.

Who said Madison , Jefferson etc were ANTI-CHRISTIAN. That's rubbish. In fact , Washington on record denied that he was an atheist. They used to call the Chaplain during the Phildelphia convention. In fact , all these guys helped form the Grand Old Party called the Republican Party which the Christian Right cherish so deeply.

[CC1981]

Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker

You are living in a dream world if you think that America in the 17 th Century was not conservative christian country.

I never said anything about America the society !!! I am commenting on American ideals such as equality,democracy and libertarian values entering the american system - which is categorically and irrefutably a product of enlightenment anti-christian thinkers ( don't get me wrong, i like the works of Rosseau and Voltaire but enlightenment was NOT a good age- it led rize to the white racism on a global scale as well). You forget that America was a minority government-state in the first place, achieved by military objective of the minority. At time of American independence, approx. 60% of Americans wanted to remain part of the British Empire - most of whom immigrated to Canada or back to Britain.

These guys were hard-core christians who wore their belief on their sleeve.

If by 'these guys' you mean average Americans, you are 100% right. If by these guys you mean the founding fathers, you are categorically wrong. America back then was extremely class-seggregated and the founding fathers had far more in common with European upper classes than the common American public - which is why they adopted distinctly European movements like enlightenment movement and Deism by hoardes.

If you choose not to believe that US consitution has it's roots on Judeo-Christanity principle , then that is okay with me. But I am afraid, you are gravely wrong here.

Err no, its not a question of beleif, its a question of noticing which work infuences what. Voltaire and Rosseau had the greatest influence on American constitution and Napoleonic France. This is evident from the fact that American constitution mirrors Rossseau and Voltaire in many groundbreaking objectives, such as seperation of church and state as well as equal rights for all religion. This fundamental facet is a development of Rosseau i think ( or Voltaire- one of the two), which was rabidly critical OF christianity and christiandom. The US constitution isnt based on christianity - it is based on enlightenment philosophers' anti-christian philosophy.

Who said Madison , Jefferson etc were ANTI-CHRISTIAN. T

They wernt per se. But then again, its only patriotic american revisionist history that gives too much credibility to Madison and Jefferson when in reality, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin,etc. borrowed most of their stuff from Voltaire, Rosseau and a lot of Hume - all of whom were anti-christian.

In fact , Washington on record denied that he was an atheist.

he was a deist. Not an atheist. Deism is not Christianity. Look, i don't want to be condescending and i apologise for the previous comment. But fact is, philosophy field has made it abundantly clear that the western ideals we see today that are so cherished- freedom, democracy, individualism, etc. are all a product of anti-christian movement stemming from the enlightenment era. It is very very clear that the west became civilized pretty much only when Christianity started its (so-far) terminal decline in the west : the age of enlightenment. And i will request you not to quote the bible or give any credibility to articles that quote the bible to support a viewpoint. I've read that book front to back and its so self-contradictory that it isnt funny ( by far, imo, the bible is the worst written of any of the major religious books). Pick any, i repeat, any standpoint and i can find you quotes from the bible that both support it as well as contradicts it. Its full of 'X=Y' and then two pages later, the same 'X!=Y' sort of contradictions.