Lurker Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Only states that he mentions "Punjab", "Sind", "Gujarat" , "Bengal".And he mentions only north Indian rivers and geographical terrain. I don't want to buy your spin here. Sorry ! KR. A little clarification here. When Tagore wrote Bengal he did not mean West Bengal or the land of Bengalis. NO. At the time Bengal meant pretty much area east of UP, including Bihar, Assam, Tripura, modern Bangladesh and so on. If you would recall Bengal was partitioned in 1905 for "better administration" by British and Indian Nationalists had strongly opposed it as it was more on religious lines rather than anything. The outrage was so much that in 1912 the two Bengals were again unified. The Anthem Jana Gana Mana was composed in 1911 so if anything Tagore was highlighting, rather cheekily, to show how Bengal was all one and not two. xxxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark BTW, I am not a Bengali , how the heck am I supposed to get the English translation Jana Gana mana, atleast the first stanza, is in Suddha-Bhaasha bengali- which is as close to a living version of sanskrit alive today as possible in the whole world. Hell, Suddha Bhaasa is 90% sanskrit and 10% bengali. You imagine too much my friend , when you assume that he is talking about this state , that state etc . I do not imagine- i KNOW. I do not want to reveal more personal info but i can assure you that i am perfectly aware of Rabindranath's compositional tilt as thoroughly explained and catalouged by VishwaBharati University. I've explained to you why Punjab or Bengal are used instead of their geographical moniker and why Dravida is used instead of TN-Karnatak-AP-Kerala. But to that you have no counter. Maybe because you are out of your depth when it comes to music or poetry ? I don't want to buy your spin here. Exactly- you don't want to. Thats all there is to this really. You don't want to see it the right way. Instead you wanna be a typically regionalist-minded southie who quite hypocritically assumed to lecture me on regionalism few days ago and throughout this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Again , US national anthem does not selectively mention certain states and ignores an entire region. No region has been ignored. That has been categorically proven. It has also been categorically proven that all regions of india are described-some by name, some by language and some by geography. Their is no bias in the anthem unlike ours which can be easily inferred as regional National Anthem. It can be easily inferred so by fools who do not bother understanding the poem. Why am i not surprised that you are one of the 'jump up and pay attention' brigade who doesnt engage brain when it comes to the anthem ? In my opinion , it is much better national anthem than ours and ideologically brilliant I must add. Oh yeah- an anthem that can be used by pretty much ANY nation speaking english and with a flag with stripes and stars on it is a better one than a unique national anthem that actually describes the nation. Right. Oh i forgot - Tagore didnt specifically mention your precious lil state. Boo-freakin-hoo. Waa-waaah! Seesh..regionalism ki bhi hadh hoti haye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark regionalism ki bhi hadh hoti haye. CC fell flat on his face.... u were recently embarrassed, when u argued tht regionalism is more important than country.... what happened.... didnt suit ur convenience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Umm dude please. STOP. You just cut-pasted from wiki. And no, it is not an accurate translation- a vague one. Obviously I googled it . I am not a bengali .How the heck am I supposed to translate. ? As i said- he mentioned bengal because there is NO OTHER EASIER WAY of representing Bengal in a poem. BS ! Their is was no need to mention Bengal at all in my opinion. He already mentioned Ganga and going by your moronic logic , since Most of the Bengal region lies in the Ganges Delta , it was already covered by the word Ganga. If you can't do better or you aint got something better- please don't complain or ask for it to be scrapped. Now THAT is moronic. It is moronic not to scrap this National Anthem which was made before partition which actually INCLUDES PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH. Going by your moronic logic and wild imagination about the central idea of the poem , Punjab , Sind and Bengal can and will be inferred as including PAKISTAN and BANGLADESH. Yes it does. Dravida has been used to describe the language/culture of the southern four states in ancient india - not just by us northies but by your southie ancestors too. It is a LINGUISTIC appeallation ! More so the race , Don't forget that !. More reasons to scrap this word , and revisit the National Anthem. And that is a ridiculous opinion - punjab and sindh are historically and culturally as much India as anywhere else on this planet - regardless of what transpired only FIFTY years ago. Besides, this poem was penned before the partition and was penned to reflect the complete subcontinent minus afghanistan. Again , if it is written before partition , time for revising this ancient crap because we have two new countries Pak and Bangla. Also in 2005 , people wanted Sindh to be removed and replaced with Kashmir and rightly so. He is using geographical terrain and linguistic/historic names to COVER all of India. Ganga-Jamuna is in reference not just to the rivers but also the land around it. Vindhayas is not just the mountain ranges - it represents central india. If Gangas Delta covers Bengal , as I have mentioned earlier , then why use Bengal again ? Touchie touchie southie, thou art ! Just admit it - you want your state to be named and thats all there is to it. You arn't satisfied with being referred to as Dravida- which you got to share ith 3 other states - nevermind that 8 states share the 'himachal' and you don't see any of them hollering about it. No, I don't want any state to be mentioned unlike you. Who is touchy now ? Instead of Bengal wtf is he gonna say to identify bengal ? land of ganga-brahmaputra and its delta ? Good **** luck making THAT go into a poem. Ganga is enuf , in my opinion. After all , Ganges Delta covers Bengal. :hic: :hic: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark when u argued tht regionalism is more important than country Err no i did not. I said culture is, not regionalism. I painstakingly defined India as ALL the cultures in the subcontinent, not just geographical markers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark when u argued tht regionalism is more important than country Err no i did not. I said culture is, not regionalism. I painstakingly defined India as ALL the cultures in the subcontinent, not just geographical markers. the kid twists again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark regionalism ki bhi hadh hoti haye. CC fell flat on his face.... u were recently embarrassed, when u argued tht regionalism is more important than country.... what happened.... didnt suit ur convenience? CC talks from arse most of the time. I think we is stupid to be indulge him . :hic: :hic: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark He already mentioned Ganga and going by your moronic logic , since Most of the Bengal region lies in the Ganges Delta , it was already covered by the word Ganga. It has already been mentioned that in tagore's time, Bengal was today's Bihar,Bengal, Meghalay,Tripura and Assam. Ie, NOT just the ganges. Going by your moronic logic and wild imagination about the central idea of the poem , Punjab , Sind and Bengal can and will be inferred as including PAKISTAN and BANGLADESH You will find that Rabindranath, too, was a culturalist over a nationalist if push came to shove. As a result, his India is the entire united India, not today's divided India. More so the race , Don't forget that !. More reasons to scrap this word , and revisit the National Anthem. The race thing is a western interpretation/misunderstanding. In india dravida has been always used to refer to culture and language. NOT race. Also in 2005 , people wanted Sindh to be removed and replaced with Kashmir and rightly so. Wrong- the supreme court thinks otherwise. Sindh represents the millions of Sindhis in india today. And Kashmir is already covered by himachal. If Gangas Delta covers Bengal , as I have mentioned earlier , then why use Bengal again ? Answered above. No, I don't want any state to be mentioned unlike you. Who is touchy now ? You are the one whining about your state not getting mentioned. I think we all know who the touchy one here is. Ironically, you dont even KNOW what the anthem means except for an half-arsed translation in English- a language so so terrible to translate indic languages into. And the ironic thing is, you were lecturing me about patriotism a few days back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark I think we is stupid to be indulge him . You is stupid because you does not even understand the poem you are trying to nitpick. Simply going by how it sounds like an illiterate man who is pissed because he heard punjab mentioned but not karnatak...too uneducated to know that Dravida includes karnatak. :wall: Typical touchie southie as i said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark CC is soon going to claim that he is Tagore's Grandson. :lmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Exactly- you don't want to. Thats all there is to this really. You don't want to see it the right way. Instead you wanna be a typically regionalist-minded southie who quite hypocritically assumed to lecture me on regionalism few days ago and throughout this thread. You are a regional minded bong who made a blanket statement that Southies know less about Jainism/Buddhism than Northie. And that theory fell flat on your face , because their are more jains in karantaka then many North Indian states. So , please don't embarrass yourself further and please get some life. It's weekend and am gonna sign out now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Tagore was a regionalist? Maybe he was. After all, the national anthem of Bangladesh does not contain any reference to Noakhali! (BD's anthem "Amar Shonar Bangla, Ami Tomae Bhalobashi", was written by Tagore, immortalised by freedom fighter Iqbal Ahmad, who sang these lines when he was being flagellated by his Pakistani captors) Cannot believe the poet's name is being dragged through the mud like this. Have you read his poems, listened to his songs? It's not his fault that Jano Gano Mano was adopted as the anthem. He never suggested it himself. There are far better creations of his, which simply refer to India, the land, and make no reference to its provinces. Some of his patriotic songs, and I am as big a Tagore fan as they come, make you want to stand up and march, or dissolve in tears. Jodi Tor Dak Sune Keu Na Ashe...Bhango, Bandh Bhenge Dao....Ebar Bidaye De Ma, Ghure Ashi...Sankocher Bihobolotay Nijeri Opomaan..Ah, I've never heard an Indian poet create the magic that he did. He inspired a generation of freedom fighters all over the land. Why, he even inspired foreigners! After the 1965 military coup in Indonesia that brought Suharto to power, communist revolutionary Njoto was given the death sentence by a military court. His last words in the court room were two lines of a famous Tagore song: amar jeerno pata jabar belay barey barey daak diye jaay notun patar barey barey ("Withered leaves of mine call upon the new as they depart" ) Just stunned to read some of the stuff written here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
head coach Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Tagore was a regionalist? Maybe he was. After all, the national anthem of Bangladesh does not contain any reference to Noakhali! (BD's anthem "Amar Shonar Bangla, Ami Tomae Bhalobashi", was written by Tagore, immortalised by freedom fighter Iqbal Ahmad, who sang these lines when he was being flagellated by his Pakistani captors) Cannot believe the poet's name is being dragged through the mud like this. Have you read his poems, listened to his songs his songs? It's not his fault that Jano Gano Mano was adopted as the anthem. He never suggested it himself. There are far better creations of his, which simply refer to India, the land, and make no reference to its provinces. Some of his patriotic songs, and I am as big a Tagore fan as they come, make you want to stand up and march, or dissolve in tears. Jodi Tor Dak Sune Keu Na Ashe...Bhango, Bandh Bhenge Dao....Ebar Bidaye De Ma, Ghure Ashi...Sankocher Bihobolotay Nijeri Opomaan..Ah, I've never heard an Indian poet create the magic that he did. He inspired a generation of freedom fighters all over the land. Why, he even inspired foreigners! After the 1965 military coup in Indonesia that brought Suharto to power, communist revolutionary Njoto was given the death sentence by a military court. His last words in the court room were two lines of a famous Tagore song: amar jeerno pata jabar belay barey barey daak diye jaay notun patar barey barey ("Withered leaves of mine call upon the new as they depart" ) Just stunned to read some of the stuff written here. Dhondy nice post. Some of them no nothing about Tagore. Thanks for your insight. For the guys who make these false arguments: "The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Cannot believe the poet's name is being dragged through the mud like this. Just stunned to read some of the stuff written here. Right on Dhondy. Reason is rather simple. As always Indians have managed to be ignorant about their heroes. Tagore's place in Indian history should have been second to none, including Gandhi. He was one man who pretty much had it all nahin? I mean he was a great thinker, a phenomenal writer, a superb academician, a musician who invented his own style, a Nobel laureate, a superb painter..I mean what was he not? He could write Gitanjali in the same vein as he could diss out "Ekla chalo re". It is unfortunate that stellar Indians like him are largely unknown by us. And if anything the knowledge, or the lack thereof, seems to be sinking by the day. xxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Jodi Tor Dak Sune Keu Na Ashe THIS has gotto be the most patriotic song i've ever heard....the tune, the words, the speech..no wonder that this song evokes such passion in the bengali crowd whenever its sung. I just wish it could be translated to hindi or more people knew Bengali to realize how brilliantly moving and inspiring this song is. But nevermind. These guys here dont even KNOW what Jana gana mana means and relies on that poorly translated piece of english to make their completely idiotic claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Tagore was a regionalist? Maybe he was. After all, the national anthem of Bangladesh does not contain any reference to Noakhali! (BD's anthem "Amar Shonar Bangla, Ami Tomae Bhalobashi", was written by Tagore, immortalised by freedom fighter Iqbal Ahmad, who sang these lines when he was being flagellated by his Pakistani captors) Cannot believe the poet's name is being dragged through the mud like this. Have you read his poems, listened to his songs? It's not his fault that Jano Gano Mano was adopted as the anthem. He never suggested it himself. There are far better creations of his, which simply refer to India, the land, and make no reference to its provinces. Some of his patriotic songs, and I am as big a Tagore fan as they come, make you want to stand up and march, or dissolve in tears. Jodi Tor Dak Sune Keu Na Ashe...Bhango, Bandh Bhenge Dao....Ebar Bidaye De Ma, Ghure Ashi...Sankocher Bihobolotay Nijeri Opomaan..Ah, I've never heard an Indian poet create the magic that he did. He inspired a generation of freedom fighters all over the land. Why, he even inspired foreigners! After the 1965 military coup in Indonesia that brought Suharto to power, communist revolutionary Njoto was given the death sentence by a military court. His last words in the court room were two lines of a famous Tagore song: amar jeerno pata jabar belay barey barey daak diye jaay notun patar barey barey ("Withered leaves of mine call upon the new as they depart" ) Just stunned to read some of the stuff written here. Look Mate. I see your point about Tagore and would agree that we should not accuse him of anything lest of all regionalism and willing to retract any comment about the great tagore. My posts are directed more at the National Anthem ,thab the poet . It's only when this CC character butted in and started needlessly accusing me of being "touchie Southie" that this debate got heated up. How come you always give this guy a free pass ? I never see you criticize him when he makes blanket statements like "Southies are more image conscious ", "Touchie lil Southie", "Southie don't know Jainism/Buddhism" etc to name a few. Also, you take Bheembhai, DR to task more times than not fail to do so , when this CC character posts inflammatory things like "Christanity is the dumbest religion " , "bible is illogical" . Why the double standards mate ? If you are a honest broker , you should not take sides and I see you side with CC more often than not ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark I think we is stupid to be indulge him . You is stupid because you does not even understand the poem you are trying to nitpick. Simply going by how it sounds like an illiterate man who is pissed because he heard punjab mentioned but not karnatak...too uneducated to know that Dravida includes karnatak. :wall: Typical touchie southie as i said. I won't dignify a response to this garbage. Keep ranting ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Dhondy, instead of taking cheap shots in a midst of a discussion, refer to specific posts and raise your specific objections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Re: Murthy apologises for anthem remark Lurker, yes, "Ekla cholo re", that inspiring piece that exhorts you to follow the path you believe in, even if not a soul accompanies you, actually reads, "Jodi tor daak sune keu na ashe, tobe ekla cholo re, IIf nobody responds to your rallying call, then walk alone) and later... Ore o-obhaga, keu jodi noi dai sath tobe ekla cholo re.. (Oh unfortunate, if nobody lends you support, then you must march in soiltude) The man was beyond class. He was a magician. There wasn't a dry eye in the land when Khudiram Bose went to the gallows with this valediction on his lips: "Ebar bidaye de ma, ghure ashi, hasi-hasi dekhbe jogotbasi" (Let me go, mother, let me go away, Let the world watch me go with a smile on my lips) I shiver at the poignancy of those words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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