'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Ethnic cleansing is what happens in Kashmir,BD,Pak .... you dont call it cleansing when Ummah no longer wanted to be part of India and votes in favour of the Pakistani leaders agenda ... you just cannot have it both ways ...

Ummah is not 100% representational. There were millions of muslims who didnt want to leave and were pro-partition. They should've been booted too ? And they'd have all happily gone, eh ? SO you'd have gone to the door of a muslim who doesnt want to leave and say 'Jinnah sahib got his country, pack your bags and leave now' and it'd have gone down without a fight or a civil war eh ? As usual, your 'blanket solution' is laughably shortsighted and impractical to implement. But hey, i am just an engineer, what do i know about implimentation or practicality, eh ? :hic: Kicking out a population or killing them off is ethnic cleansing. What you are suggesting by 'boot out the muslim' chant is ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is never justified, not even when facing the Nazis because it opens the door for this act to be ABUSED and MISREPRESENTED in future. I say kicking out because it is obvious that millions of muslims didnt want anything to do with Pakistan, still don't and victimising them would've been unfair and would've split the new country apart. Would've given the Brits the perfect excuse to say ' see ? we told you dumb brownboyz that you arnt cut out to rule. We rule and for 200 years you dumb brownie muslim get along with the dumb brownie hindoo..we leave and in 2 years you got civil war. We are comming back for the sake of YOU. Damn..not only are we better and more compitent than you, we are also nobler! haw haw haw!' As i said, concept of Karma is lacking in your solution.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Now' date=' for the sake of consistency , would you support similar actions by the FBI in USA.[/quote'] A whiteboy sitting in an arab-party sticks out like a sore thumb but a bengali brahmin-turned-buddhist like me can easily grow a beard, wear a topi and recite namaaz in the local masjid.

FBI have been actively using Arabs for this kind of operation. Would you be okay if an Arab FBI infliterates mosques and conducts counter-intelligence ? Or a mexican for that matter who would look like a Arab ?

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Explain why Jinnah's party won pretty much all seats that he contested ?

Because MOST muslims agreed with him ? Most is not all. You need 51% to win a riding, you still have millions who do not agree with him, do not want to win and didnt vote for him. Or do you buy the retarded view that every single muslim voted for Jinnah ?

It was not that most had undying love for India and Hindus .... if that was the case they wouldnt have approved Jinnahs agenda in the first place.

Most people dont want to move to a new country with no posessions and leaving all their posessions behind. Its only the die-hard and the ones escaping violence that were moving. THAT is the main reason why most didnt move. By your plan, they'd have been forced out of India and they would've resisted. They would've had much wider support and even from moderate hindus who'd see it as a clear act of ethnic cleansing and adharm from the twisted fundie hindus.

Now what were those millions doing when they were voting for jinnah ?

Voting for the opposition, not voting at all, etc etc ?? Do you believe Maulana Abdul Kalam to be literally the sole lonely muslim who wanted to stay in India and the rest just stayed because they didnt think it was permament ? What you call pedantics, i call attention to detail- details that are necessary to properly understand a problem/scenario. Given that our art, architecture and philosophy is chock-full of examples towards detail, its no wonder the fundies completely lack understanding of a situation when they dismiss details as pedantics. Anybody who thinks that if you win 100% of the contested seats means you have 100% popular support lacks the basic understanding of democracy where electoral victory is decieded by 51% majority. But hey, such little details are dismissed as pedantics by people with dumb and unworkable solution - because the solution that actually works is too complicated, requires too much attention to detail and too much skill to make it work by their fundie standards. Oh and another thing bheem- you will recieve no attention for your bakwaas from me further on this thread. A proper debate is one when one makes a comment and when asked a question about it, responds with the answer and not diversonary tactics. You've asked me questions about a point of view i presented and i have answered you in this post. But you have not had the balls/intelligence/decency/understanding (pick one you like) to answer the question *I* asked you for your point of view : What do you think Gandhi/Nehru should've done ? Until you keep up your end of the debating responsibility, i am under no further obligation to acknowledge your participation(unworkable, deluded,utterly fantasical and totally fundie hindu) . Samjhe ?

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers So what are you guys having tonight . Me -

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers I just understand this , why do you guys take these debates so seriously . Chill out !

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

So what are you guys having tonight . Me -

Iam having a Spatan ... really good german beer ... :wtg:

have you tried pilsner urquel.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers In fact I like amber beers more than lager. That's why I like Shiner Bock or Sam Adams. So what's your fav beer ?

[feverpitch]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Agreed , policy of aggression breeds more aggression. But we are dealing with an enemy here who are devil incarnates.

Are you talking of the neo-cons?

We cannot reason with these radicals anymore.

Very true! They need to be tried at the World Court for crimes against humanity and given exemplary punishment so that future generations of rabies infected loonies can munch on it before they plan another electoral fraud to wreck havoc on the world.

Gandhi's policy wouldn't have worked with these thug Al queda who are brainwashed beyond hope.

Exactly. Thankfully, they are all far off. Unlike the neo cons, murderous Yankee skinhead soldiers, and the gun nut militias they inspire back in their homes.

Imagine coming to USA ,enjoying all the freedom and other benefits here and then plotting to harm the very country which has given them so much in the name of Jihad.

Imagine bombing countries, stealing their land and oil, killing and miaming millions and then cleiming it was all done for the benefit of those who are there no more toenjoy these imaginary 'freedoms'! What gall!

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Imagine bombing countries, stealing their land and oil, killing and miaming millions and then cleiming it was all done for the benefit of those who are there no more toenjoy these imaginary 'freedoms'! What gall!

You got a point here. If you read my post in the other thread , even I have expressed similar sentiment.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers BTW a question do we have any example in India where some believer neighbour of the clowns helped catch sleeper cells??

[Lurker]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Ok Lurks... heres were you can find it ..... "Hindu-Muslim Tension: Its Cause and Cure", Young India, 29/5/1924; reproduced in M.K. Gandhi: The Hindu-Muslim Unity, p.35-36. direct from the horses mouth just as you wanted it ... "There is no doubt in my mind that in the majority of quarrels the Hindus come out second best. But my own experience confirms the opinion that the Mussalman as a rule is a bully, and the Hindu as a rule is a coward. I have noticed this in railway trains, on public roads, and in the quar?rels which I had the privilege of settling. Need the Hindu blame the Mussalman for his cowardice? Where there are cowards, there will always be bullies."

Thanks for that BB. Can you please put up the entire article if you can? I would like to see the context of the statements. No I am not being a politician and denying a statement based on the proverbial "context" but it kinda beats me that in an article specifically headed "Hindu-Muslim unity: Tension and Cure" he talks about Muslim bullying and Hindu "cowardice" but nothing about the cure aspect? What was the cure modus-operandi Gandhi suggested? To make Muslim a coward or a Hindu a bully? See if you can get us the article. xxxx

[Lurker]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Just out of curiosity , what would have been your solution CC . Would you agree with the assessment that our leadership sold us short during partition.

This wasnt directed to me but let me give this a shot. Did India get short-changed at Partition? Or did Pakistan(and Bangladesh) get short-changed? The answer to that would depend on whether you are an Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi. How many Pakistani do you see who are happy that they got "more" than what they had bargained for? Practically none. If anything you will see Pakistani suggesting they were "honest" people who got the bad end of the bargain thanks mainly to "bania" Hindus. It is unfair to suggest that at partition every Muslim should have migrated to Pakistan. Why should they? That is like suggesting 100% of Muslims wanted a Pakistan. That is also like suggesting 100% of Hindus wanted a united India with Hindu-Muslim population. The truth is somewhere in between. A percentage of Muslim population wanted Pakistan and a percentage of Hindu population did not want Muslims in India, or if the very least not much power sharing with Muslims. Partition as a concept is a messed-up phenomenon. How do you seperate about a billion people with almost 1/10th of landsize of world without any grievance? How do you expect people to just up and leave the place where they have lived, where their forefathers are buried? Looking back I suppose we can agree that Partition was perhaps not a result of British "divide and rule" policy but because Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis were so facked up they just couldnt survive with each other!! Little wonder then that 30,000( or less) Brits ruled over 500 million people. xxxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers Women tend to scare imams: Kanchan Gupta Even as we continue to be in denial about the threat posed by homegrown Islamists (and the charlatans who seek to protect their sinful cause in the garb of protecting human rights) to what passes for an open and free society in India, Britain and the United States of America are coming to grips about this grim reality. The enemy within is as dangerous as the one hiding somewhere in Pakistan and whose whereabouts are a closely guarded secret of which, Gen Pervez Musharraf claims, even the present illegal occupant of Army House in Rawalpindi is ignorant. The FBI has bust a jihadi sleeper cell whose members were planning to strike Fort Dix in New Jersey with the purpose of creating mayhem at the US Army base. The aborted bloodshed would have been described as "justly deserved punishment" for the US-led war on global terror and Al Jazeera would have put the tape on loop during prime time. Unfortunately for the four Albanians, a Jordanian and a Turk who have been arrested in the crackdown, they are unlikely to frolic with houris in the near future; American penitentiaries are far removed from the paradise that is promised to those who shed blood in the name of Islam. Of the six would-be jihadis, one is an American citizen, two are holders of the much-coveted Green Card, and three are illegal immigrants. Meanwhile, five Britons have been found guilty of hatching a conspiracy to set off deadly explosions using "fertiliser bombs" - ingenious devices made of easily available ammonium nitrate - and will now cool their heels in a prison where the other sods are unlikely to welcome them with open arms. Omar Khayam, the chief conspirator, and three of his fellow Islamists are of Pakistani origin; they are believed to have been indoctrinated at Pakistani madarsas, trained at Pakistani terror camps, and served as jihad interns in Jammu & Kashmir. All of them are British citizens and beneficiaries of Britain's social welfare system, which includes free education. And, at least two of them had links with the 7/7 London Underground bombers.

A side story that has been playing out in Britain should enthuse our human rights activists whose conscience is stirred only when killers are brought to justice. Hasina Patel, whose Gujarati origin is obvious from her name and who is the widow of Mohammed Sidique Khan, one of the "martyrs" who blew himself up along with innocent passengers on July 7, 2005, has been arrested for plotting another attack. The police have also picked up her brother, Arshad Patel, apart from a relative, Imran Motala, and Khalid Khalique, whose antecedents remain undeclared. Hasina Patel's lawyer, also of Indian origin, says he is "outraged" and insists she is innocent. Perhaps human rights groups here can begin a signature campaign against British security agencies and demand that the case be transferred out of Britain to India (but not Gujarat).

This would be a natural extension of the campaign of calumny that has been launched against policemen for putting jihadis on a shorter road to paradise. Since media, more so 24x7 television news channels, has chosen to fuel this campaign of calumny and there is by now a clear pattern to blacking out inconvenient reports about Islamist intolerance, a story emanating from the US has been ignored in recent days. Curiously, Indian newspapers and television news channels, which otherwise did not report on the French presidential election, have not failed to publish stories of Muslim immigrants feeling let down by the Left's defeat. They had hoped S?gol?ne Royal would win and remove the ban on hijab at public schools, apart from bringing back the Algerian imam who was expelled for justifying wife-beating as it is "sanctioned by Islam". The unreported American story is also about an imam, forced to resign from a Pennsylvania Islamic Centre for telling a newspaper, "(The) death sentence is warranted" for best-selling author and critic of Islam, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the former Dutch Parliament member. Ali, a brave Somalian woman who has been waging a lonely battle against theocrats who do not believe in women's right to dignity and freedom and has pitilessly exposed the cruel, gruesome practice of female circumcision in Islamic countries, spoke at the University of Pittsburgh, Johnstown, on April 17. Presumably she repeated her thesis on Islamism and fundamentalism being inimical to freedom and liberty. "She has been identified as one who has defamed the faith. If you come into the faith, you must abide by the laws, and when you decide to defame it deliberately, the sentence is death," the Egyptian imam who has been preaching in the US since 1976, told a newspaper later. Obviously the imam was referring to Ali's "defaming the faith" by writing the script of Submission, a film on how Muslim women are subjugated and denied dignity by those who claim to be true adherents of the faith. Theo Van Gogh, the film's director, was murdered by an Islamist in an Amsterdam street on November 2, 2004. Since then Ali has been living in the shadow of death but has not given up her fight. "To feel otherwise," she says, "would be to deny everything I stand for." To appease the Islamists and make peace with those hounding Ali, the Dutch Government moved to strip her of citizenship on the specious plea that she had "lied" about her date of birth, country of origin and name while seeking political asylum. Ali fought back the charges, but in the end resigned from Parliament and has now moved to the US where she is a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. Her book, The Caged Virgin - A Muslim Woman's Cry for Reason, has sold millions of copies across the world. It is not surprising that imams who believe it is alright for men to beat their wives should feel threatened by gutsy women like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and, closer home, Taslima Nasreen - their thoughts would not fetch them a hapenny. And deep within they know paradise is not for those who peddle hate as faith.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

To appease the Islamists and make peace with those hounding Ali, the Dutch Government moved to strip her of citizenship on the specious plea that she had "lied" about her date of birth, country of origin and name while seeking political asylum. Ali fought back the charges, but in the end resigned from Parliament and has now moved to the US where she is a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. Her book, The Caged Virgin - A Muslim Woman's Cry for Reason, has sold millions of copies across the world. It is not surprising that imams who believe it is alright for men to beat their wives should feel threatened by gutsy women like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and, closer home, Taslima Nasreen - their thoughts would not fetch them a hapenny. And deep within they know paradise is not for those who peddle hate as faith.

I agree ,because I had followed this one before . Dutch government got bullied by the ummah in the case of Ali. She had some unflattering things to say about Islam and they were worried that it could lead to more civil unrest. Hirsi Ali wrote the script and provided the voice-over for Submission, a film directed by Theo van Gogh, which criticized the treatment of women in Islamic society. And we all know what happened to Von Gogh. A letter attached to Van Gogh's body with a knife was primarily a death threat to Hirsi Ali. Whatever happened to Freedom of speech . Looks like one particular community of hardcores are truly enemies of it.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Just out of curiosity , what would have been your solution CC . Would you agree with the assessment that our leadership sold us short during partition.

This wasnt directed to me but let me give this a shot. Did India get short-changed at Partition? Or did Pakistan(and Bangladesh) get short-changed? The answer to that would depend on whether you are an Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi. How many Pakistani do you see who are happy that they got "more" than what they had bargained for? Practically none. If anything you will see Pakistani suggesting they were "honest" people who got the bad end of the bargain thanks mainly to "bania" Hindus. It is unfair to suggest that at partition every Muslim should have migrated to Pakistan. Why should they? That is like suggesting 100% of Muslims wanted a Pakistan. That is also like suggesting 100% of Hindus wanted a united India with Hindu-Muslim population. The truth is somewhere in between. A percentage of Muslim population wanted Pakistan and a percentage of Hindu population did not want Muslims in India, or if the very least not much power sharing with Muslims. Partition as a concept is a messed-up phenomenon. How do you seperate about a billion people with almost 1/10th of landsize of world without any grievance? How do you expect people to just up and leave the place where they have lived, where their forefathers are buried? Looking back I suppose we can agree that Partition was perhaps not a result of British "divide and rule" policy but because Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis were so facked up they just couldnt survive with each other!! Little wonder then that 30,000( or less) Brits ruled over 500 million people. xxxx

You do have a valid point. Even I feel Partition as a concept is a messed-up phenomenon. But , I do feel the British policy of "divide and rule" did play a part in fueling the mistrust between hindus and muslims. Second important part being some members of the ummah always felt that religion comes first over even the country.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

That is also like suggesting 100% of Hindus wanted a united India with Hindu-Muslim population. The truth is somewhere in between. A percentage of Muslim population wanted Pakistan and a percentage of Hindu population did not want Muslims in India, or if the very least not much power sharing with Muslims.

You are the intellectually most dishonest fellow I have ever come across. I keep giving you tresult fo election fought by muslim league on basis of pakistan's creation and u keep shutting ur eyes to that fact.. it was overwhelming majority wso overwhemling that muslim league won each and every seat of muslim region..

Partition as a concept is a messed-up phenomenon. How do you seperate about a billion people with almost 1/10th of landsize of world without any grievance?

without any grievance u got to be foling urself even after partition grivnace never seems to end. eck it's not india specific phenomne can u find me a place where doesn't harbour the feeling of being wronged.. be it uk usa or anywhere this theme never changes..

Looking back I suppose we can agree that Partition was perhaps not a result of British "divide and rule" policy but because Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis were so facked up they just couldnt survive with each other!! Little wonder then that 30,000( or less) Brits ruled over 500 million people.

it goes like this muslims are so fuckkkked up they can't coexist with anyone unles they have some sort of special privileges accorded to them ala malyasia. If u belief otherwise find me a place where they are comfortable with presence of others as equal citizenry.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

You do have a valid point. Even I feel Partition as a concept is a messed-up phenomenon. But , I do feel the British policy of "divide and rule" did play a part in fueling the mistrust between hindus and muslims. Second important part being some members of the ummah always felt that religion comes first over even the country.

Secessinit tendency runs in certain community's blood, from china to russia to thailand to what nto same theem plays still we keep rpretending that somehow there is n correlation between their behaviour and faith they follow..

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Second important part being some members of the ummah always felt that religion comes first over even the country.

they are just following directions spelt out in their holy books .. but the question is whats preventing the Non-ummah janta from seeing this danger?

idiocy I guess

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers One general question I have is , what is the population of muslims in India who trace their ancestry to pasthuns, iranians and other central asian tribes. In other words, how many of them trace their roots from afghan , Iran and NW Pakistan along the lines of Mughals and other invaders like Sher Shah , Ghazni etc . My conservative estimate would be less than 20% muslims belong to this category.

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

You are the intellectually most dishonest fellow I have ever come across. I keep giving you tresult fo election fought by muslim league on basis of pakistan's creation and u keep shutting ur eyes to that fact.. it was overwhelming majority wso overwhemling that muslim league won each and every seat of muslim region.. /quote] Actually the intellectually dishonest fellow here can only be you. Either that or you categorically fail to undertsand the finer points of democracy ( a common failing in many Indians i've noticed). I don't know if you ever bothered paying attention when they were teaching Civics in your school but here is the simple answer : Your electoral result can mean a wide variety of things depending on the type of representation. In a direct democracy, where the outcome of an election is decieded by simple majority, it is the most reflective of popular sentiments and is the most transparent democracy. However, direct democracy exists only in theory at national levels, simply because logistics are astronomical and it is hard to form a compromise between parlamentarian systems of governments which have distinct advantages of a senatorial bench. Long story short, the form of democracy practiced in Britain (and thus India in colonial times as well as post colonial times) is representational democracy. Meaning that the nation is broken up into tiny little pieces ( ridings/electorates/districts/states/etc) where different candidates contest for votes. Ie, you can win 90% of your district ( or even 100% as you claim in Jinnah's case) but your actual vote earnt is typically a fraction of that because typically you are winning each riding from anywhere between 51% votes to 100% votes. A basic understanding of statistics and electoral political discourse will demonstrate this to be true. In 2000 US Presedential election, Al Gore won more than half a million extra votes than George Bush in total, yet he won only 21 of the 50 states. This alone shows that your idea that Jinnah had total support of muslims simply because he won all near-total muslim-majority areas is false. He could've easily won 99% of muslim-majority ridings (where 90+% of the population is Muslim) and yet garnered less than 70% of the muslim votes. Until you can provide the precise results of this 'referendum for Pakistan' in terms of how many people voted for who and where these elections were held ( all over INdia ? some select places, what is the definition of this 'muslim regions' ? modern day pakistan-bangladesh ? or all through India ? Where are the parallel demographic survey to say which 'district' is primarily muslim and which district is primarily Hindu ?etc etc), your point is utterly lacking in merit. What you are doing is creating your own version of history by liberally filling in the gaps to things you do not know. This is not only unethical, its the height of stupidity in my opinion. Reality is, as anyone with a proper understanding of history will tell you and your other hindu fundie friends, is that there were many muslims like Abdul Kalam Azad, who wanted nothing to do with partitioning India and were big proponents of a secular government. And the irony of it all is that the likes of you and your friends here can never come up with a working solution to the problem today because you folks lack basic understanding of the problem and how to deal with it. I hope you do not come up with similar trash as above due to your poor understandings of issues you tend to comment on liberally.