'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

what is the population of muslims in India who trace their ancestry to pasthuns, iranians and other central asian tribes.

This question, even if someone can provide the correct answer, is rather academic and moot point. Simply because, take a look at your family and see how many generations ago you have information about. There might be the oddball special case here and there but chances are you, much like me or 99% people here, cannot trace their direct ancestors to more than 200 years ago ( and even then that'd be pushing it, 200 generations = 8 generations approximately. That is dada-ke-dada-ke-dada-ke dada story. Since Islamic invasions started happening around 1200 years ago, i doubt anyone can credibly claim in the entire subcontinent who their precise ancestors were unless they were recent arrivals ( like say Baghdadi Jews to Kolkata). Claims however, may be made motivated by several factors but doesn't mean it is true or there is any substantiation for it. For all we know, any of our ancestors long ago here (unless you are from places like Sikkim/Assam/Manipur etc, where historic penetration of Muslims is lacking) could've been central asian/arab invaders.

My conservative estimate would be less than 20% muslims belong to this category.

I think that regardless of how many muslims claim otherwise in the entire subcontinent, 20% or so Muslims can 'accurately' claim to be Pashtun/Iranian/Turk/Arab in ancetry since i think that is what the % of muslims (though its just an educated guess) in subcontinent are who are recent arrivals ( recent as in within the last 200-250 years and thus have 'distinct' familial memory of comming from abroad). India under the colonial era ( ie, 1750s onwards) was extremely cosmopolitan as the British shipping routes brought in the more enterprising people from all over- predominantly Arabia/Iran etc. due to geographical closeness. This was especially true through the late 1800s to 1930s when there were ample Turks, Iranians, Arabs etc. living throughout India as the British didnt give a hoot who lived where, who died where, etc. so long as situation remained peaceful for them to tax the hell out of the farmers and plunder India's resources.

[Gaurav]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers Good point Bheem. CC with the current crop of politicians the chance of your recommendations getting implemented is very low. I have no real solutions either but Hindus definitely were short changed by the partition and still are getting short changed.

[Lurker]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

You are the intellectually most dishonest fellow I have ever come across. I keep giving you tresult fo election fought by muslim league on basis of pakistan's creation and u keep shutting ur eyes to that fact.. it was overwhelming majority wso overwhemling that muslim league won each and every seat of muslim region..

Whats with that judgemental atitude DR? I think you are the most moronic person on this board. A definite right winger with his head up his arse. As for your "keep giving results" what crap. I would decide if you have indeed given me anything, not you surely. You seem to beleive you are judge, jury as well as the attorney. Well guess what. You are not. You are only a fool.

without any grievance u got to be foling urself even after partition grivnace never seems to end. eck it's not india specific phenomne can u find me a place where doesn't harbour the feeling of being wronged.. be it uk usa or anywhere this theme never changes..

A typical anti-Muslim stance. Here is something you need to realize. If 15-20% of Indian population(maybe more) doesnt want to be with India there is nothing you would be able to do about it. Period!! That this 15-20% of Indian population has not that itself suggests that you are living in a place where the sun doesnt shine.

it goes like this muslims are so fuckkkked up they can't coexist with anyone unles they have some sort of special privileges accorded to them ala malyasia. If u belief otherwise find me a place where they are comfortable with presence of others as equal citizenry.

Okay I have to ask. Do you seriously behave like this all the time or were you having just a bad day?? I mean come on man what kind of a discussion is this? Thus far I have been patient to you but you seem to just revel in cr@p talking, even when I have been nothing but decent. So first thing is be decent or get the f@ck out of my face. Capisce?? Now where the hell did the discussion of Malaysia came from? Or US/UK. Why dont you stick to the topic and concentrate on India mate? If you are interstested in Ummah across the world go ahead and open a thread on it..as it happens 90% of them are about that anyway!!! One thing is for sure though. When people say that education doesnt mean a man is smart it is not only true for Muslims, you are a sterling example of what a man should not be. xxxx

[Lurker]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

You do have a valid point. Even I feel Partition as a concept is a messed-up phenomenon. But , I do feel the British policy of "divide and rule" did play a part in fueling the mistrust between hindus and muslims.

Fair enough. But here is my question KR. Did British create "Divide and Rule" or were the divisions already there to be exploited? As a ruling class who can blame British on exploiting the differences? Heck isnt that what today's Indian politician do based on caste/religion etc etc. It is pertinent to note that British Government did not exactly descend into India. It was the East India Company that started as traders in India and a lot of their efforts(initially anyway) was to merely make sure their trade was not in harm's way. And in the process became Indian Power Player.

Second important part being some members of the ummah always felt that religion comes first over even the country.

Yes and No. Yes because obviously there are Muslims who think like that, even today. Personally I think it is highly condemnable that you would want your religion infront of your country. No because that atitude is not a problem in itself if its a private emotion. I mean who the hell cares if my neighbour thinks like that but doesnt do anything against India? It is his religious philosphy and let it be. The problem I have with that atitude(pointing finger that Ummah always felt like that) is that it allows Hindus to go completely scott-free. It suggests Muslims created divisions in India or were in the least largely responsible for the divisions in India. That line is obviously wrong. Since Independence we have had the majority of leaders Hindus, and guess what we still have the same divisions - caste/religion etc etc. The Hindu leaders have not exactly done any different than suggested "Muslim line of thinking", have they? xxxx

[Lurker]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Naahh cant be that naive Lurks .... first of all its not a private emotion if it involves the country and secondly history is proof that these "emotions" get acted upon .... as recently as Kashmir .... So the question is how long do we live in blissfull ignorance and for what logical reason ?

How do such emotions get acted upon Bheem? Here is a question to you - If indeed Ummah is more important for a Muslim that his country, why have the Bihari Muslims not taken arms and went fighting against Indian soldiers in Kashmir? You can substitute Bihari by Telugu/Tamil/Assamiya whatever.

BTW any thoughts on how Gandhi was blatantly pro-Muslim despite being bitten .... based on the evidence I provided?

Not yet. I owe you a response for that surely. Would do that today. By the way I did reply yesterdayday, not sure if you have checked that already. xxx

[Lurker]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Just as the ML thingy in the pre-partiion days to the current Kashmir thingy and now slowly to other parts ... interesting you mention Bihar ... the other day there was Taliban training video shot in Bihar .... what has Bihar Ummah done to stop that and not proliferate such message ? Isnt it obvious that they have found new pocket of support for their seperatist ideology ?

Sorry that doesnt answer my question BB. No I am not brushing away Bihar Taliban Training but I am sticking to the issue that I had raised first. If you want I can answer your question about Bihar Taliban Training too. Coming to the question I raised. If Muslim Ummah indeed considers religion above nationality and that this philosphy finds resonance in India then it is only logical to assume that a Bihari Muslim would indeed take up arms against Indian soldiers and Indian Government. Have they? If not then why not.

and dont you find a problem with how easily most of the Kashmiri muslims no longer identify themselves as Indians anymore ?

Do I find a problem with how a lot of Kashmiri Muslims do not identify themselves as Indian? Of course I do. But the pertinent point is how many of them considered themselves to be a part of India when India became Independence in the first place! I would say that a large part of Muslims that dont identify with India today didnt identify even in 1947. And then there are others that have been either brainwashed by Pakistani activities, pushed into a corner by Indian Security Forces, and driven by feeling of Independence. Can you tell me that Muslims In Kashmir were all pro-India in 1947 and today they are anti-India and it is all due to the religion?

I already responded to your post yesterday ..... take your time.

Did you? Sorry I will check that up as well. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Whats with that judgemental atitude DR? I think you are the most moronic person on this board. A definite right winger with his head up his arse. As for your "keep giving results" what *****. I would decide if you have indeed given me anything, not you surely. You seem to beleive you are judge, jury as well as the attorney. Well guess what. You are not. You are only a fool.

Mods don't want gutter talk but seem to be oke with when it comes from u ur anyway it's their call. Again u have so conveniently overlooked the following facts.. Jinnha fighting election on basis of pakistan and winning by landlside among muslim constituency....Any sane person without apologist mind wud know what it means.. try reconsiling this fact with tur marvel of not all muslim wanted pakistan.. yes certainly not all wanted in fact 50% in NWFP never wanted it but in the part which is India today verdict was unequivocal in support of pakistan and election result shows that.

A typical anti-Muslim stance. Here is something you need to realize. If 15-20% of Indian population(maybe more) doesnt want to be with India there is nothing you would be able to do about it. Period!! That this 15-20% of Indian population has not that itself suggests that you are living in a place where the sun doesnt shine.

It's nto just desire it's the cost involved too and in my view that's what deters them. If these people didn't have desire for separate state they won't have started working for separate electorate right after independence. Thanks to Sardar patel they got the boot.

Okay I have to ask. Do you seriously behave like this all the time or were you having just a bad day?? I mean come on man what kind of a discussion is this? Thus far I have been patient to you but you seem to just revel in cr@p talking, even when I have been nothing but decent. So first thing is be decent or get the f@ck out of my face. Capisce?? Now where the hell did the discussion of Malaysia came from? Or US/UK. Why dont you stick to the topic and concentrate on India mate? If you are interstested in Ummah across the world go ahead and open a thread on it..as it happens 90% of them are about that anyway!!! One thing is for sure though. When people say that education doesnt mean a man is smart it is not only true for Muslims, you are a sterling example of what a man should not be.

Tube-light ever heard of explaing by example that's where malaysia came. Ad-hominem tirade aside find me a place where peace-loving muslim brother of yours are nto busy with secessionist traitorous activities. Yes, don't worry about my intelligence I shudder when islamic apologist find me intelligent . PS: I still think u are one of the most intellectually dishonest person I have ever come across, u have trumped CC by a mile.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Long story short, the form of democracy practiced in Britain (and thus India in colonial times as well as post colonial times) is representational democracy. Meaning that the nation is broken up into tiny little pieces ( ridings/electorates/districts/states/etc) where different candidates contest for votes. Ie, you can win 90% of your district ( or even 100% as you claim in Jinnah's case) but your actual vote earnt is typically a fraction of that because typically you are winning each riding from anywhere between 51% votes to 100% votes.

What a cop out. Had there been opposition to Jinnah's belief system there would have been parties like Frontier Gandhi in place even in other areas but there were none. it's nto like Jinnah used to win all mslim election before hsi pakistan theory among muslim constituency but the moment he asked vote in name of pakistan suddenly each and every constituency went to muslim league.

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

What a cop out.

I just explained to you some basic democracy theory. You claimed that since Jinnah had 100% victory in muslim ridings, he had near-complete support. I've used Gore-Bush as a demonstration that it is utterly ludicrous to think so. And as usual, you cannot address the point. If there is anyone intellectually lacking or being dishonest, it is you and your cohort of fundie hindus. I've also asked you to substantiate your claim that he won every single muslim constituency and asked you to provide the voting breakup of those constituencies. Until you can provide the info, your speculations about Jinnah's support base is utterly lacking merit.

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

CC with the current crop of politicians the chance of your recommendations getting implemented is very low.

No sh!t. Human history is proof that the proper solution to a societerial problem is almost never implemented because usually those in charge are in charge due to fanaticism spread by the societerial issue and thus lack basic understanding of the issues.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

What a cop out.

I just explained to you some basic democracy theory. You claimed that since Jinnah had 100% victory in muslim ridings, he had near-complete support. I've used Gore-Bush as a demonstration that it is utterly ludicrous to think so. And as usual, you cannot address the point. If there is anyone intellectually lacking or being dishonest, it is you and your cohort of fundie hindus. I've also asked you to substantiate your claim that he won every single muslim constituency and asked you to provide the voting breakup of those constituencies. Until you can provide the info, your speculations about Jinnah's support base is utterly lacking merit.

Clowns he won every single constituency go google u will find it.. in provincial election he lost few in NWFP due to Khan abdul Gafafr khan's opposition. I have no time for ur baseless logic bordering on did u check every single vote did u do this did u do that. here is the excerts from the book Transfer of Power in India [align=center]World War II broke out in 1939. The Congress refused to cooperate with the British and resigned from all its provincial governments. The Muslim League promised all support and thus occupied the space vacated by the Congress. It passed Pakistan resolution in 1940. The allurement of a separate sovereign Muslim State and the fear of Hindu raj, as propagated by the Muslim League, brought almost all Muslims in League?s camp. All Pirs and Ulemas, except a few, worked for it. Conversely, the fear of division of their motherland and prospect of ?Ramrajya? united the Hindus under the Congress umbrella. In the Central and Provincial Assembly elections of 1945-46, the Muslim League won all the 30 reserved Muslim seats of the Central Assembly. The Congress too won all the 57 non-reserved (Hindu) seats because of consolidation of the Hindu votes. It got 91.3 per cent of the votes cast. The vote count of the Muslim League was 86.6 per cent of the votes cast in Muslim constituencies, (V.P. Menon?s Transfer of Power in India). [/align] 86.6 percent sounds like complete support to me because no muslim part was without hindu populace and 13.4 percent should be hindus. I repeat overwhelming number of those muslims who wanted united India were in the region which is today pakistan. In other part pakistan's support was complete.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

I think that regardless of how many muslims claim otherwise in the entire subcontinent, 20% or so Muslims can 'accurately' claim to be Pashtun/Iranian/Turk/Arab in ancetry since i think that is what the % of muslims (though its just an educated guess) in subcontinent are who are recent arrivals ( recent as in within the last 200-250 years and thus have 'distinct' familial memory of comming from abroad).

I can agree on this. Even I feel that some of the Pathans/Iranians can trace their roots and could possibly be immigrants within the last 200-250 years. My estimate would be 20% or less can trace their ancestral roots back to Iran and Afghanistan.

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Clowns he won every single constituency go google u will find it.. in provincial election he lost few in NWFP due to Khan abdul Gafafr khan's opposition.

SO what clown ? He can win every single constituency and still have less than 60% total support in the overall vote bank. I've demonstrated this to you and you are running away from this.

I have no time for ur baseless logic bordering on did u check every single vote did u do this did u do that.

Every single vote ? I said provide the voting breakup of every single constituency if you want to find out how many supported Jinnah and how many didnt. I've explained to you (obviously beyond your intellectual capacity to understand when demonstrated even by real world examples) why that information is necessary if you want to comment on how much popular support he had.

86.6 percent sounds like complete support to me because no muslim part was without hindu populace and 13.4 percent should be hindus.

No, it isnt. 13.4 % is hindu on average for the entire PAK-BD region but in reality, there would be several constituencies (in places like Balouchistan/west Punjab/Bangladesh) where a constituency is nearly 100% muslim. There would also be constituencies in places like Bangladesh where hindus would outnumber muslims. Besides, what is the source of the claim for that book ? Which Indian Civil service or British Civil service records does it reference ? Establish credibility of the book you are reading first, then pander it to us.

I repeat overwhelming number of those muslims who wanted united India were in the region which is today pakistan. In other part pakistan's support was complete.

Baseless speculation from your incomplete understanding of what the election represented and how it was conducted. Again, i am not surprised.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Fair enough. But here is my question KR. Did British create "Divide and Rule" or were the divisions already there to be exploited? As a ruling class who can blame British on exploiting the differences? Heck isnt that what today's Indian politician do based on caste/religion etc etc. It is pertinent to note that British Government did not exactly descend into India. It was the East India Company that started as traders in India and a lot of their efforts(initially anyway) was to merely make sure their trade was not in harm's way. And in the process became Indian Power Player.

No , british did not create "Divide and Rule" policy , they just exploited it. I can agree with your assessment here.

Yes because obviously there are Muslims who think like that, even today. Personally I think it is highly condemnable that you would want your religion infront of your country.

Agree with you. And this percentage of Ummah are indeed the problem that we must address ASAP without being to politically correct. If they need to be booted out of the country , so be it. As far as I am concerned , they are enemies of democracy . And so are the Shiv Sena. But , thankfully , we are talking about a very small percentage of Ummah population here.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers See do u find any cohesion between muslim folks and non-muslim folks anywhere in the world even today.Why are we vilifying British for creating this division. Are britshs in Thailand are british in Malaysia are british in indonesia are british in france. They follow exclusivist idieology to the letter hence division is there to start with .

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

See do u find any cohesion between muslim folks and non-muslim folks anywhere in the world even today.

Yes. Qatar for example. Muslims and non-muslims there get along just fine and i know this because i LIVED there. But again, you do not want examples that contradict your illiterate views.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers ^ don't you think that exclusivist idieology is more of a new phenomenon in the sense that it is from the last 100 years or so , that it has shown it's ugly head.

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

don't you think that exclusivist idieology is more of a new phenomenon in the sense that it is from the last 100 years or so , that it has shown it's ugly head.

Again, a purely academic question because the poster you are directing this to has clearly demonstrated his/its inability to think !

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

No, it isnt. 13.4 % is hindu on average for the entire PAK-BD region but in reality, there would be several constituencies (in places like Balouchistan/west Punjab/Bangladesh) where a constituency is nearly 100% muslim. There would also be constituencies in places like Bangladesh where hindus would outnumber muslims. Besides, what is the source of the claim for that book ? Which Indian Civil service or British Civil service records does it reference ? Establish credibility of the book you are reading first, then pander it to us.

Clown if u read my post I have unequiovocally said in baluchistan in Kalat region in NWFP mthere were large chunk of mulsim who wanted divided India we are talking here about muslims in the region which is India today. Now are u willing to claim that there was no 14% hindu population in some region in region comprising today's India.. if yes let me know I will further corner u with bare naked facts.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

See do u find any cohesion between muslim folks and non-muslim folks anywhere in the world even today.

Yes. Qatar for example. Muslims and non-muslims there get along just fine and i know this because i LIVED there. But again, you do not want examples that contradict your illiterate views.

Muslim and non-muslim get along fine whennon-muslims are ready to live as constitutional second class citizen this is where from I started. Are u willing to claim now that in Qatar this mechanism is not in place.