'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

[CC1981]

Re:

It was your own example !

My own example used in a completely different context (which was relevant). Unlike your's. My context was to illustrate that winning majority electorate does not imply winning majority vote. However, you equating it with ML league vote and equating it to asking Muslims to leave India is irrelevant and an illogical construct since Gore-Bush election issue does not involve a human rights issue.

Can you show me where it says so and an instance of this being put to practice ?

For one,common decency says that you cannot kick me off my property based on any majority consensus about a race/religion. If 99 out of 100 kannadigas wanted to be kicked off of India, it doesnt mean that every single Kannadiga should be asked to leave since there is that 1 out of 100 who didnt and it will infringe on their human rights. For two, it is enshrined in our constitution. For three, Voltaire's basic treatease on rights of an individual ( on which FYI, the French, English, Indian,Canadian and US constitutions are based, along with Adam Smith's treatese) specifically says so. For four, UN charter on human rights, to which India is a signatory, specifically implies so. Since right to property independent of religion is specifically enshrined in the UN charter of human rights (to which India is a signatory), Muslims in India cannot be deprived of their property without their wish or in absence of anything criminal that justifies a penalty of proprietorial seizure. Its as simple as 1-2-3-4. And if you wish to go down the stupid line of thought that India wasnt a signatory to UN human rights charter in 1947, that will not change the ethics or morality of this debate but would be merely exploiting a legal loophole to deliver injustice towards Indian muslims. Each one of these reasons is good enough to blow apart your idea that it is okay to kick people off their properties even if they didnt vote to leave or do anything remotely criminal, nevermind the fact that there are many many more reasons.

specially when the culprits themselves have demanded and voted with overwhelming majority for a seperate nation based on religion ?

The 'culprits' do not include each and every muslim and therefore, the ones who didnt vote to move should not be asked to. Just as simple as that. PS: Repeat after me: An Indian muslim is just as much an Indian as you are.

[CC1981]

Re:

CC dont get jingoistic

Please do not use words to which you do not know the meaning of. I know your grasp of English is very poor at best but take a look at the definition of jingoism: jin·go·ism (j?ng'g?-?z'?m) Pronunciation Key n.Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism Since you are the one here arguing along chauvinistic patriotism, YOU are the jingoistic one, not me.

You will be outta here fatafat if you continue down that route ... Talk decently and keep the tone bland. Is that in anyway unclear ?

As i can see, you cannot admit that your argument was stupid as exposed by me and therefore will go down this route of trying to derail the topic. Nothing in my previous post requires any reminders about decency or tone since i did not address ANYBODY in that post personally. You = gaand faati because your argument was shown up to be a stupid one, to which you have no reply. Now, get back to topic and respond to what i said in my previous post- if you can. Its as simple as that, vatz.

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Talk decently and keep the tone bland. Is that in anyway unclear ?

I do not take orders from you. Is THAT anyway unclear ? You can continue to say the abovementioned line any number of times you wish but it will get ignored just as many times by me. Is that anyway unclear ?

[kumble_rocks]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Anyone who doesn't get that does not understand the basics of human rights, democracy and is categorically fascistic in their thinking.

Why do you debate like this CC. What's wrong with you . Can't you tone down and debate the posts , not the poster. Please try to control your anger and emotions when you post.I hope you understand.

[CC1981]

Re: 'Islamic radicals' chargedwith plot to kill FortDix soldiers

Can't you tone down and debate the posts , not the poster.

I *AM* debating the post, not the poster. The difference between a democratic and fascistic society is that (amongst many,mind you) in a democratic society, a set of pre-determined human rights are NOT subject to democratic vote and revision while in a fascistic society, ANYTHING can be done so long as the majority votes for it- including genocide ( CATEGORICALLY illustrated by Mussolini, who was an ELECTED leader). Therefore, my comments, while may be seen as provocative, was perfectly in line with the post.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Meanwhile Swiss are having referendum to ban Minaraet structure because Minaret is epitome and harbinger of shariah law which is against the secular/democratic ethos of Switzerland. Can't blame them canada has already seen the demand of Shariah, number equation was not right so they didn't get their wish. Can't have it both ways: islam being complete way of life legislating political aspect too and at the same time being treated as the rest of the religion which don't meddle with political process of a given state.

[Lurker]

There is hardly anything ambigous or contextual about what he says ... he is saying what is the root cause for most Hindu-Muslim tensions based on his own personal experiences ...and then goes on to provide his solution .... which is to present the other cheek ... even if it attracts death .. doing anything else was cowardice. but here is the full deal http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL028.PDF it is excruciatingly long so help yourselves ---------------------- and this ........ And in here http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL029.PDF you will find that confession to his secretary Desai (which I mentioned earlier in this thread)... on why he was fasting for no fault of his(As per Desai's reasoning) ... there are many more damning revelations in those collection of works.

BB, Can you specify what exactly are you looking for me to look here? Both the files are pretty large and it would help if I knew what I was looking for. For example second file is 514 pages long, and when I search for "fasting" nothing comes up. Can you point me towards what you consider to this debate? xx

[Lurker]

[MKG] : My error! Why' date= I may be charged with having committed a breach of faith with the Hindus. I asked them to befriend Muslims. I asked them to lay their lives and their property at the disposal of the Mussalmans for the protection of their holy places. Even today I am asking them to practise ahimsa, to settle quarrels by dying but not by killing. And what do I find to be the result? How many temples have been desecrated? How many sisters come to me with complaints? As I was saying to Hakimji yesterday, Hindu women are in mortal terror of Mussalman

goondas. In many places they fear to go out alone. I had a letter from . . . How can I bear the way in which his little children were molested? How can I now ask the Hindus to put up with everything patiently? I gave them the assurance that the friendship of Mussalmans was bound to bear good fruit. I asked them to befriend them, regardless of the result. It is not in my power today to make good that assurance, neither is it in the power of Mahomed Ali or Shaukat Ali. Who listens to me? And yet I must ask the Hindus even today to die and not to kill. I can only do so by laying down my own life. I can teach them the way to die by my own example. There is no other way. . . I launched no-co-operation. Today I find that people are non-co-operating against one another, without any regard for non-violence. What is the reason? Only this, that I myself am not completely non-violent. If I were practising non-violence to perfection, I should not have seen the violence I see around me today. My fast is therefore a penance. I blame no one. I blame only myself. I have lost the power where-with to appeal to people. Defeated and helpless I must submit my petition in His Court. Only He will listen, no one else

Thanks for that BB. Saved me quite some time digging through that 500 page thingy. Coming to the issue at hand yes I would concede that based on this article it does seem that Gandhi had in the very least serious doubts about the action of Muslims. I probably would not go so far as say he was completely disenchanted by Muslims and still tried to appease them simply because I do not know the facts. What I do think however is that there would be times when he would be greatly confused. Let me explain that. Look at it this way. At the time of writing this article the populaion of India(undivided) would perhaps be 35-40 crores, with about 25 crores Hindus and 10-15 crores Muslims(those are just some approximate numbers for the sake of discussion). Trying to make such a large population follow the path of non-violence would have been an impossible task. On one hand you had Muslims who would want nothing to do with Hindus, on the other hand you had Muslims who fought side by side with Hindus. Indeed if you can pick an incident where Muslims attacked Hindus there are also notable incidents where Muslims saved Hindu lives, specially in NW Frontier area where Pathans under Ghaffar Khan's influence ensued even during the darkest hours of Partition that no Hindu lives was lost. My point is that if I try to put myself in Gandhi's position I would be greatly confused, which is what Gandhi seems like when he wrote - " Today I find that people are non-co-operating against one another, without any regard for non-violence. What is the reason? Only this, that I myself am not completely non-violent. If I were practising non-violence to perfection, I should not have seen the violence I see around me today. My fast is therefore a penance. I blame no one. I blame only myself.". I find that last bit kind of utterance of a little confused person, someone who is disappointed by whats going around him and does not know what to say or do. And to be honest can you blame him? The circus that our freedom struggle became at times would go most leaders nuts. That all said I would agree that a man should learn from his mistakes and if Gandhi seriously beleived Muslims had created problems for Hindus he should have kept that in mind. xxxx

[Gaurav]

Lurker you seem to be confused. Bheem's text is pretty clear to me.

[Lurker]

Our business rules and Primary keys are all upside down .... hence the reason we will always find ourselves holding the wrong end of the stick.

Thats quite a deep thought BB.

And think about the mass brainwash that is meticulously conducted by the propaganda mills run by our babus ... Dare I say that but for the power of internet(and some brave souls who put it out there) such pieces of vital information would have been lost or you would have had to go to lengths to get to the bottom of things.

I would disagree on this. The disagreement stems from the fact that me and you have different thoughts and on most debates we shall perhaps be on the opposite side of each other. But so long as the debate is done with a genuine intention and no thought of humilating the other person it is all wonderful. Hopefully we can both learn a few things from each other from time to time.

Many thanks for a pleasant discussion. Cheers.

Thank you for a stimulating discussion. I still owe you a response on the whole Sharia thingy which hopefully I shall get around to doing soon. Cheers! xx