feverpitch Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Bye, bye United. Dateline Athens....Milan versus the greatest European club ever. What are your parameters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator_05 Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Quick review - off the top of my head, so correct me if i am wrong somewhere Real Madrid 9 AC Milan 6 Liverpool FC 5 Bayern Munchen 4 Ajax 4 ...Manutd, Benfica, Inter, FC Barcelona, Nottingham Forest etc. all have 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain of Bhangra Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Yeah Pred, Dhondy's not the only deluded 'pooh fan, I know several in real life. One was on my football team tonight, I played him in with the perfect lofted pass, he scored, and ran past me saying: "Great ball Dal, Gattuso was playing a few like those last night" and gave me a smug look. I'm going to break his legs in training... Anyhow, the scum chairman has admitted that the league is what they really want to win, so hopefully we can win that now that we're so well placed, and show them for the 9th time in 14 years what they haven't touched in 17 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Nobody can reel those figures off the top of their head, Pred, not even you. If Real Madrid and Milan are to be considered ahead of Liverpool, based on what they did in the 1950s and 60s, then Uruguay and Hungary must be considered footballing powers on par with Argentina and Germany. I'm sorry, that's just too far back. All of Liverpool's five Champion's League triumphs have come in the modern era. Despite all their might and financial clout, Real Madrid have only 3 titles in that period. Milan have 4. Don't forget the fact that after the Heysel disaster in 1985, Liverpool was thrown out of Europe for six years. They were at their absolute peak during that period, having won the Cup under Joe Fagan in 1984, building on Paisley's three triumphs, and losing that fateful 1985 final to Juventus by a solitary goal. I reckon they were robbed of two or three European titles during those six years. They won the domestic league no less than three times in those six years. So yes, the greatest European club, if not ever, certainly of the modern era. And Dal, I am no Kop supporter, but I find it churlish not to give credit where it's due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator_05 Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Errr...Milan won the CL in '89, '90, '94, '03 and also made several finals; namely the '91 final vs Red Star Belgrade, '93 final vs Marseille, '95 vs Ajax. Juventus also dominated in Europe, making every single CL final from '96 'til '98, and then one in '03. That is the kind of domination which Liverpool haven't achieved yet. 2 CL finals in 3 seasons is a good start, but it's hilarious that you can even term them the greatest ever European club when they can't even win their own league. They haven't even won a single Premiership title, while Milan won several Scudetti during the '90's (they even went one season unbeaten) and Juventus have won '97, '98, '02, '03, '05, '06 IIRC and several more. Real Madrid won La Primera in '95, '97, '01 and '03 as well. Those three clubs won titles and competed at the forefront of the European football for three decades, while Liverpool rotted away in the 90's and didn't make any impression on the big boys in Europe until their CL win in 2005. Compare that to Milan, Juventus, et al who frequently challenged for honours since and 80's. The Heysel thing is just conjecture - bear in mind that Everton were winning leagues back then as well, so it wouldn't been smooth sailing for Liverpool. By the same token, we could mention Marseille and Milan as well - who served bans in the early 90's and were thereby "robbed" of a chance to dominate Europe as they should have. Marseille definitely would have won another 3 CL's with the squad they had; Boli, Deschamps, Voller, Papin, Boksic etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feverpitch Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Errr...Milan won the CL in '89, '90, '94, '03 and also made several finals; namely the '91 final vs Red Star Belgrade, '93 final vs Marseille, '95 vs Ajax. Juventus also dominated in Europe, making every single CL final from '96 'til '98, and then one in '03. That is the kind of domination which Liverpool haven't achieved yet. 2 CL finals in 3 seasons is a good start, but it's hilarious that you can even term them the greatest ever European club when they can't even win their own league. They haven't even won a single Premiership title, while Milan won several Scudetti during the '90's (they even went one season unbeaten) and Juventus have won '97, '98, '02, '03, '05, '06 IIRC and several more. Real Madrid won La Primera in '95, '97, '01 and '03 as well. Those three clubs won titles and competed at the forefront of the European football for three decades, while Liverpool rotted away in the 90's and didn't make any impression on the big boys in Europe until their CL win in 2005. Compare that to Milan, Juventus, et al who frequently challenged for honours since and 80's. The Heysel thing is just conjecture - bear in mind that Everton were winning leagues back then as well, so it wouldn't been smooth sailing for Liverpool. By the same token, we could mention Marseille and Milan as well - who served bans in the early 90's and were thereby "robbed" of a chance to dominate Europe as they should have. Marseille definitely would have won another 3 CL's with the squad they had; Boli, Deschamps, Voller, Papin, Boksic etc Well said. Applause! IMO, the current Liv team have certainly made it a habit of hitting above their level. That is commendable. With just one classy player and a few journeymen, they have fared quite well in Europe, using their home fixtures [with their fanatical and intimidating supporters] and their defensive discipline and swift counter attacking style to good effect to catch better teams unawares. But the best team? Hardly. We remember the 1974 WC less for Beckenbauer and W. Germany, the winners, and more for Cryuff and Holland, the losers. Same with the 1954 WC and Hungary. Why? Because ultimately, soccer is a sport first, and entertainment for the spectators next. As spectators we demand our imagination to be inspired and whetted. The Magical Magyars and the Flying Dutchmen could do that, unlike their dour and clinical German opponents. Accounting on the other hand, is not a very important facet of the game. Anyway, true domination is not reflected by occasional wins or surprise defeats, but in sustained supremacy. IMHO, Milan of the late 80's- early 90's, Madrid of the late '50's and early 00's, Liverpool of the early '80's, Inter of the mid '60's are good examples. These teams would win everything, domestic and international. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurav Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Liverpool will get thrashed my Milan. Mark my words! I will watch the match as a neutral and just enjoy the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator_05 Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Anyway' date=' true domination is not reflected by occasional wins or surprise defeats, but in sustained supremacy. IMHO, Milan of the late 80's- early 90's, Madrid of the late '50's and early 00's, Liverpool of the early '80's, Inter of the mid '60's are good examples. These teams would win everything, domestic and international.[/quote'] Exactly - sustained supremacy. Liverpool in '05, '06 and '07 were able to concentrate their efforts on cup runs because their title challenges ended prematurely by December anyway, as they would be miles behind Chelsea, Arsenal, Manutd ('05) and Chelsea/Manutd ('07). They play fewer matches by comparision, whereas the Juventus side of the late 90's for instance, played approx 70 matches a season as they were challenging in all competitions, Serie A, CL and Coppa Italia. If Liverpool continue to reach finals and semifinals in this decade with the regularity that the likes of Juventus ('96, '97, '98, '99, '03), Milan ('94, '95, '03, '05, '06, '07) and Real Madrid ('98, '00, '01, '02, '03) did - over the course of 5 seasons or more, then they would lend some credence to Dhondy's theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain of Bhangra Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Dhondy, how can you call them the greatest side when it took them years to qualify for the competition, and even then only because more places were handed out to English clubs? They haven't won the English league since 1990. Even Leeds and Blackburn have won it more recently than them, and Leeds have just been relegated to the 3rd tier of English football. Milan and Real Madrid are by far the best European sides ever, because they smash 'pooh's record in Europe, BUT, also do well in their domestic leagues... I can only remember Liverpooh finishing in 2nd place once in the past 10 years... It's beyond a joke that a team with such a pathetic domestic record can so casually be named as Champions of Europe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator_05 Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Easy on son, even Manutd didn't enter the '99 CL as champions. They had to qualify for it that season... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted May 4, 2007 Author Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United They haven't even won a single Premiership title, while Milan won several Scudetti during the '90's (they even went one season unbeaten) and Juventus have won '97, '98, '02, '03, '05, '06 IIRC and several more. Real Madrid won La Primera in '95, '97, '01 and '03 as well. Milan and Real Madrid are by far the best European sides ever, because they smash 'pooh's record in Europe, BUT, also do well in their domestic leagues... Liverpool have been English champions 18 times, ahead of Manchester United's 15...ahead in fact, of any other English club. Not winning the premiership is definitely a blot on their record, but doesn't take away from the fact that they are the most successful English club ever, and the best European club in my living memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain of Bhangra Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Easy on son' date=' even Manutd didn't enter the '99 CL as champions. They had to qualify for it that season...[/quote'] Yes, but they won the Premiership that season, and had finished 2nd at least... Dhondy, yes, they have won it 18 times, the last of which, I'll remind you again, was in 1990. Man Utd will be winning their 9th title since then if they win the League this season. So by one standard, Real Madrid are not the greatest European club because they won a lot of their trophies in the 50s, but by the other, Liverpool are the best English club because they have the most titles, despite not winning one for 17 years?... Dhondy, you know as well as I do that Liverpool are cr@p, both Chelsea and Man Utd are by far the best 2 English teams at the moment, and the league table reflects this. They would obviously struggle at this stage in Europe, because they are still both in contention for the League title, and have to worry about that, whereas Liverpool usually drop out of the title race by Christmas, and focus solely on whichever cup competition they're not knocked out of by then. I'm sure that Utd would do a hell of a lot better in Europe if they didn't bother with the league for longer than a couple of months... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain of Bhangra Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United ^ Oh, and that's why the 1999 Man Utd side was the greatest team to grace English football, ever. Winning the 2 biggest possible prizes in one season, and then also picking up the best domestic cup is bloody difficult... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted May 4, 2007 Author Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United I'll tell you why I rate Liverpool ahead of United, Dal. Liverpool is the one club that made its dominance count. During the halcyon Bob Paisley-Joe Fagan years, Liverpool won Europe's premier competition no less than four times, apart from losing in that Heysel final. That's dominance. Manchester United has blitzed all comers in England over the 15 years that the Premiership has been in existence, winning it no less than nine times (including the current season), but what does it have to show for that dominance in Europe? One solitary final, one trophy. Even in the middle of their worst drought, Liverpool has made it to two finals, and already won one. I look upon United as a bit of a soft touch. They'll bully the hell out of weak opposition, but the moment they come up against some really big boys, they are shown up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator_05 Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Liverpool have been English champions 18 times, ahead of Manchester United's 15...ahead in fact, of any other English club. Not winning the premiership is definitely a blot on their record, but doesn't take away from the fact that they are the most successful English club ever, and the best European club in my living memory. 18 Division Titles, and not one single Premiership. They all count, but you overlook this fact. I really don't know how you can rate them as the best European club when they went through well over a decade (the 90's + the early '00s) without doing anything of note in Europe. It was only until the '01 UEFA Cup win under Houllier and then the subsequent CL QF in '02 when they finally arrived on the European stage. Back in the 90's, they were being eliminated in the early rounds of the UEFA Cup by the likes of Celta Vigo. But for the resurgence in 2005, Liverpool went through 15 barren years - you can't say the same for Milan, Juventus, Real Madrid, or Bayern Munchen. These clubs had their droughts as well, but they still managed to compete in their leagues and dominated the CL. Liverpool have some way to go before they can be compared to these clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted May 4, 2007 Author Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United You are young, Pred, you weren't around in the late 70s and 80s. Believe me, for those of us who grew up back then, Liverpool was club football. On a trip to the States back in '97, I was out in a diner, when the European owner asked me where I was from. As soon as I said UK, he piped up, "Ah..Liverpool! I love them!" How you can put the Torinos, in particular, ahead of the Merseysiders, escapes me. Despite their dominance at home, they have just two trophies in Europe that really count. First cousins of United, I am afraid. Huge hype, huge fan following, lots of domestic titles, but nothing much to show for on the big stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator_05 Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United How you can put the Torinos' date=' in particular, ahead of the Merseysiders, escapes me. Despite their dominance at home, they have just two trophies in Europe that really count. .[/quote'] I grew up watching the Juventus teams of the mid-late 90s. They were simply breath-taking - a collection of super-stars who played sensational football. Peruzzi in goal, Di Livio, Ferrara, Torricelli at the back, Deschamps and Tacchinardi the orchestrators, a young Zidane, a young Del Piero; best striker in the world at the time, Inzaghi, Nicola Amoruso, Vieri, Boksic, etc. the widest array of talent and class you have ever seen. They made THREE CONSECUTIVE CL finals from '96 to '98 and the semi in '99 (which they lost to Manutd) - that is a scale of dominance which i haven't quite witnessed. They won the '96 one on penalties, but lost in '97 to Dortmund - which was unfortunate as the final was played in Munich and Dortmund enjoyed the support of a partisan crowd; not to mention the two shots off the woodwork, and in '98 they ran into Real Madrid. They bossed everyone, and the best performance i've ever seen was their 4-1 win over Ajax in '97 in the semi final, which saw them run a talented Ajax side (who made the final the season before) absolutely ragged. Looking at the big picture, they still played more finals than Liverpool - 2 wins ('85, '96) and 5 final appearances. When Liverpool play 4 consecutive seasons in the CL without anything less than a semi-final place in each and every season, then we can talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feverpitch Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United I'll tell you why I rate Liverpool ahead of United, Dal. Liverpool is the one club that made its dominance count. During the halcyon Bob Paisley-Joe Fagan years, Liverpool won Europe's premier competition no less than four times, apart from losing in that Heysel final. That's dominance. Manchester United has blitzed all comers in England over the 15 years that the Premiership has been in existence, winning it no less than nine times (including the current season), but what does it have to show for that dominance in Europe? One solitary final, one trophy. Even in the middle of their worst drought, Liverpool has made it to two finals, and already won one. I look upon United as a bit of a soft touch. They'll bully the hell out of weak opposition, but the moment they come up against some really big boys, they are shown up. Have you recently won a British Passport, or are you about to get one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feverpitch Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United How you can put the Torinos' date=' in particular, ahead of the Merseysiders, escapes me. Despite their dominance at home, they have just two trophies in Europe that really count. .[/quote'] I grew up watching the Juventus teams of the mid-late 90s. They were simply breath-taking - a collection of super-stars who played sensational football. Peruzzi in goal, Di Livio, Ferrara, Torricelli at the back, Deschamps and Tacchinardi the orchestrators, a young Zidane, a young Del Piero; best striker in the world at the time, Inzaghi, Nicola Amoruso, Vieri, Boksic, etc. the widest array of talent and class you have ever seen. They made THREE CONSECUTIVE CL finals from '96 to '98 and the semi in '99 (which they lost to Manutd) - that is a scale of dominance which i haven't quite witnessed. They won the '96 one on penalties, but lost in '97 to Dortmund - which was unfortunate as the final was played in Munich and Dortmund enjoyed the support of a partisan crowd; not to mention the two shots off the woodwork, and in '98 they ran into Real Madrid. They bossed everyone, and the best performance i've ever seen was their 4-1 win over Ajax in '97 in the semi final, which saw them run a talented Ajax side (who made the final the season before) absolutely ragged. Looking at the big picture, they still played more finals than Liverpool - 2 wins ('85, '96) and 5 final appearances. When Liverpool play 4 consecutive seasons in the CL without anything less than a semi-final place in each and every season, then we can talk Have you seen the Juve team that beat Liverpool at Heysel? That had Bruno Conti, Platini, Boniek, Rossi and if I remember well Cabrini. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted May 5, 2007 Author Share Posted May 5, 2007 Re: AC Milan v Manchester United Have you recently won a British Passport, or are you about to get one? It's a somewhat snide comment, feverpitch, and I must say I didn't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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