Will you enter politics under Congress party banner?

[Sachin=GOD]

So far, we have 3 people who have said they would not mind joining the congress. Me, Aaku and Lurker . And the rest of them, around 12, wouldn't want to. Its safe to assume that these 12 would vote/join the BJP. Why is there such a big disconnect between the real polls and the e-polls. The BJP always appears much stronger in these e-polls ( not just on ICF). In the last general elections, Congress won comfortably. I used to think that its the uneducated who vote on a larger percentage for the Congress, but that isn't the case. Some of the districts in MP ( where the BJP won) have the lowest literacy levels in the country. Is it a female vs male thing? That females tend to vote ( maybe subconsciously) for a party that stands ( or claims to) for equality and has a historic legacy?

I think the reason is that the BJP's voters are primarily in the urban areas while Congress' voters are mainly in the rural areas. So you will almost always find BJP more popular in these e-polls etc but these urban people usually are lazy when it comes to voting and on election day a majority of them don't go out to vote or have to be coaxed to vote while the rural people vote in large numbers. I personally would never ever want to join a party that has become Gandhi & Nehru Pvt Ltd.

[Lurker]

Lurker' date=' you cannot thrust a language upon someone who doesnt want to learn it. A better way for the government would be to incentivize learning of Hindi, but it should not be made mandatory or the official language for government business.[/quote'] I wouldn't want Govt to push for a language ahead of any other language, and lets be frank that has obviously never happened. However what is also true is that we only have 1 language with the kind of reach that none other comes close to remotely. We can obviously build on that and if nothing atleast be in a position where Indians can speak with each other in a common language. I couldnt care less about which language they filled their forms in really.

[Sachin=GOD]

Only educated people should have the voting rights in india in each constituency. There will be greater chance of bjp being in power then' date=' bsp, sp, rjd will probably be wiped out.[/quote'] kyon bhai, uneducated logon ne kya gunaah kiya hai ???

[Sachin=GOD]

I agree with vaibhav. Only the educated and land/property owners should be afforded voting rights. The illiterate and the ignorant masses have no right to fvck this once beautiful country of ours. Even USA had graduated voting rights in the early goings after independence. I mean lets face if a person can't read or write, how the fvck can he be given a responsibility to elect the better candidate? The Illiterate and the poor are like stray dogs. So it is the job of the fortunate ones to look after the land until these stray dogs can be taught to act accordingly if they want to be domesticated. And don't think I am being unfair sitting behind this computer screen towards the poor. I'm all for compassion towards the poor. Just don't tell me a vote by a guy, who hasn't washed his ass in 10 years, is worth the same as my vote.

you serious?

[Sachin=GOD]

How I wish Atalji was 15 years younger. He was the single reason they had successful coalition, he was true leader, unlike MMS. Lot of his ministers never questioned ABVP. He lead a tight ship. Biggest tradegy for India that Atalji become PM very late in this political career.

+1

[ganeshran]

I wouldn't want Govt to push for a language ahead of any other language, and lets be frank that has obviously never happened. However what is also true is that we only have 1 language with the kind of reach that none other comes close to remotely. We can obviously build on that and if nothing atleast be in a position where Indians can speak with each other in a common language. I couldnt care less about which language they filled their forms in really.

I think the government is already moving towards that direction by encouraging Hindi at the school level and to government employees. It is very advantageous for non Hindi speaking Indians to learn the language as it removes communication barriers for them with the rest of the country. This advantage must be communicated to them so they voluntarily take the initiative to learn the language. What also must be communicated is that the adopting Hindi doesnt come at the expense of anyone's local language or culture. However, our identity is not based on a common linguistic or racial theme. So I dont consider learning of Hindi as a must for national integration, it is quite useful for utilitarian purposes though.

[Vijay.Sharma]

I should have given some numbers but frankly I was kinda tired towards the end of the day so perhaps cut it short but would take the oppertunity now to clarify that. Usually I am not big on Wiki articles or numbers but for this I couldnt find anything on census numbers so take it for whatever it is.

Me too. So the following numbers to be taken with a pinch of salt, I assume? Anyway, let me bring some specifics in there.

A few points: a) The native speakers of Hindi so defined accounts for about 43% of Indians and another 27 to 43% of national population can understand or speak the language So you could add it to range of 70-86% of population who have a working knowledge of the language. b) If you go deeper into the subject here are numbers by native speakers. Hindi - 40% of population Urdu - 5 % Marathi - 7.5% Gujarati - 5% Punjabi - 3%

What is the definition of native speakers - mother tongue? people who can read/write Hindi? people who can talk Hindi? people who can make out what the conversation is about when someone speaks in Hindi? Secondly I don't know where you got those numbers of 43% from. Hindi is a proper language in just 4-5 states of the country - Delhi, Uttar Pradesh, Chattisgarh, Uttarakhand, and Madhya Pradesh. Even in Bihar and Jharkhand people don't speak Hindi. This 43% is a gross generalization where many languages seem to have been mixed in like Bhojpuri, Haryanvi, etc.

So yeah we can hazard a guess and getting past 50% number would not be very difficult for Hindi really.

Even if Hindi can find 80% of Indians having functional knowledge of it, where is the justification to standardize it? Why? How exactly can Hindi make any difference to the lives of Indians who are not from 4-5 states in the north and central part of the country? Firstly, why don't people from these north-central states do the honorable thing and live up to the agreement of learning a new Indian language, especially one from south of the Vindhyas? The whole country except North and Central states learned one other language that is not their state language during the past 40-50 years. The North and Central states have betrayed the cause of Unity in Diversity. So let's please cut this cr@p about Hindi and "rightfully theirs". Bharatvarsha beliongs to every Bharata yaar, and is not exclusive to speakers of a b@stardized language which developed in the last century.

[Vijay.Sharma]

I think the government is already moving towards that direction by encouraging Hindi at the school level and to government employees. It is very advantageous for non Hindi speaking Indians to learn the language as it removes communication barriers for them with the rest of the country. This advantage must be communicated to them so they voluntarily take the initiative to learn the language. What also must be communicated is that the adopting Hindi doesnt come at the expense of anyone's local language or culture. However, our identity is not based on a common linguistic or racial theme. So I dont consider learning of Hindi as a must for national integration, it is quite useful for utilitarian purposes though.

Almost all of India introduced Hindi as a language in the state education system but the North and Central states did not bother to learn a new language. How arrogant is that? Anyway Lurker seems to be propagating that Hindi must be taught at the expense of losing out on your state language. If I got that wrong Lurker, then I don't know why we are even discussing this. My understanding is that you want standardization whereas I am for diversity and no need for any standardization. If Hindi is more beneficial than other national languages then it will survive and thrive. But let's face it that is not happening. If any language is making it's presence felt and bringing us together for standardization purposes it is English.

[Vijay.Sharma]

The sad part is Hindi will not be accepted as a common language because of the congress hauris and marxist historians. Unless we relearn our true History, that of there being no bloody race called aryan race or that no race from outside Bharatvarsha is responsible for developing our culture, we will not be able to agree upon a standard language. Serves us right.

[Lurker]

Me too. So the following numbers to be taken with a pinch of salt, I assume? Anyway, let me bring some specifics in there.

I seconded that with direct numbers from Census of India so its not a Wiki number anymore mate.

What is the definition of native speakers - mother tongue? people who can read/write Hindi? people who can talk Hindi? people who can make out what the conversation is about when someone speaks in Hindi? Secondly I don't know where you got those numbers of 43% from. Hindi is a proper language in just 4-5 states of the country - Delhi, Uttar Pradesh, Chattisgarh, Uttarakhand, and Madhya Pradesh. Even in Bihar and Jharkhand people don't speak Hindi. This 43% is a gross generalization where many languages seem to have been mixed in like Bhojpuri, Haryanvi, etc.

That is clutching at straws mate. In India a language changes every 100 miles. Mumbaiya Hindi is very different from Jamshedpuri Hindi which is completely different from Hyderabadi Hindi. So are we now gonna argue which one is the correct version? The easy answer is Hindi, in whatever form, is easily the common language by far. Again, please check the census numbers and see how that number can go easily way upwards of 60-70% of population of India.

Even if Hindi can find 80% of Indians having functional knowledge of it, where is the justification to standardize it? Why? How exactly can Hindi make any difference to the lives of Indians who are not from 4-5 states in the north and central part of the country?

Depends on what you think is "difference" for a country. To me citizen of a country should be in position to criss-cross its nation without worrying about if he can communicate with local population. Do you truly beleive a villager from Bihar is comfortable travelling to the backwaters of Tamil Nadu? And why is the same villager completely at ease travelling to say Madhya Pradesh?

Firstly, why don't people from these north-central states do the honorable thing and live up to the agreement of learning a new Indian language, especially one from south of the Vindhyas? The whole country except North and Central states learned one other language that is not their state language during the past 40-50 years. The North and Central states have betrayed the cause of Unity in Diversity. So let's please cut this cr@p about Hindi and "rightfully theirs". Bharatvarsha beliongs to every Bharata yaar, and is not exclusive to speakers of a b@stardized language which developed in the last century.

There is no reason to get worked up dude. You brought up the number game, including how Congress numbers are going down yada yada. Now dont turn this game around with a "honorable" and what not. Bottomline, a vast majority of India population speak/understand Hindi and the number of speakers exceeds those of rest of the languages put together. Now either you can agree to that and accept my viewpoint, including questioning where did I get those numbers from OR do the usual song and dance that non-Hindi population does when confronted with numbers, why should Tamilians learn Hindi and not vice versa. xxxx

[Lurker]

The sad part is Hindi will not be accepted as a common language because of the congress hauris and marxist historians.

Not sure about that but as stated earlier I do appreciate BJP as the party who chose to accept it as the leading language ahead of English, for example. Although they have also not make it a political ideology per se.

[Vijay.Sharma]

Depends on what you think is "difference" for a country. To me citizen of a country should be in position to criss-cross its nation without worrying about if he can communicate with local population. Do you truly beleive a villager from Bihar is comfortable travelling to the backwaters of Tamil Nadu? And why is the same villager completely at ease travelling to say Madhya Pradesh?

But then where does the standardization end? You agree that the planet is increasingly becoming a global village? Wouldn't you want a guy from the deep Amazonian forests to be able to travel comfortably without communication problems in the bushes of Australia? You see, this nationalistic call is a pseudo. Standardization works so-so in a factory at best. Standardization/Conformance is an artificial limitation imposed on human abilities and capabilities. Similar to the argument of Hindi, you can make a much grander argument for English to become the planet's language. Isn't an international standard a better option than a national standard?

There is no reason to get worked up dude. You brought up the number game' date=' including how Congress numbers are going down yada yada. Now dont turn this game around with a "honorable" and what not.[/quote']Sorry, either I didn't make my point clearly or you misinterpreted it. The mention of honorable thing to do is in the context of the Unity in Diversity policy embarked upon by India, which I am afraid to say the north and central states of India have betrayed it's cause while the rest of the country voluntarily honored it. Lurker, the point is not about adopting another language. The whole of India except north-central states has already done it. You are now asking the civilization to kill it's cultural heritage for the sake of what, standardization? If you believe that is fair, then why do you not suggest English to be the common language for all of humanity on our planet? Can you please answer this for me?

[Vijay.Sharma]

Not sure about that but as stated earlier I do appreciate BJP as the party who chose to accept it as the leading language ahead of English' date=' for example. Although they have also not make it a political ideology per se.[/quote']if you are not yet sure about the actual History of India (I believe your reference is to that fact of my post) then I urge you sir, to become sure. Please learn about our civilization's true History and please teach your children also the true History of our land. I think you will do a million times greater for our national identity by learning the true History of India first than by focusing on language standardization. Our unity lies in the fact that we are one common civilization: the civilization of Bharatvarsha with all its art and culture. If we focus on that root identity of a tolerant, diverse yet common civilization there is a better chance of ushering in a golden age of India than by trying to forge an identity thru language.

[Lurker]

But then where does the standardization end? You agree that the planet is increasingly becoming a global village? Wouldn't you want a guy from the deep Amazonian forests to be able to travel comfortably without communication problems in the bushes of Australia?

For me it is rather easy actually. I am interested with regards to India only, now if you are wondering about which language should be de facto language of the world maybe you should be having this discussion at the United Nations?

Similar to the argument of Hindi, you can make a much grander argument for English to become the planet's language. Isn't an international standard a better option than a national standard?

I will leave that to folks like you who when cornered by numbers, or as you put it - facts - end up changing the goalposts ranging from "Why dont Northies learn Tamil" to "What about English as the world language".

Lurker, the point is not about adopting another language. The whole of India except north-central states has already done it. You are now asking the civilization to kill it's cultural heritage for the sake of what, standardization?

Dude you will not find enough support even in anti-Hindi crowd. Look I dont want to keep repeating myself so let me make myself simple, succint and clear. a) There may be 15 languages recognized by Constitution but ONLY one language that trumps the rest of them put together in terms of speaking and understanding. b) Purely in terms of numbers every 2 out of 3 citizens of this country is able to converse/understand Hindi (those are census numbers). The 3rd person, generally speaking, acts as the proverbial 3rd wheel and is happy to keep his jhanda on about "its killing my culture" while at the same time hanging onto the coat tail of a colonial language that was basically brought to the land so the local languages could be killed (check my post for mcCaulay in this regards) in the first place. xxx

[Lurker]

if you are not yet sure about the actual History of India (I believe your reference is to that fact of my post) then I urge you sir, to become sure. Please learn about our civilization's true History and please teach your children also the true History of our land.

History is a big subject and I like to keep things in life simple, atleast mine. If a subject as small as language is getting the kind of response as witnessed on this thread do you seriously think there is a point in debating Aryan race etc etc?? I am gonna pass on that mate and let you feel good on your sarcasm skills. :winky:

[ganeshran]

Lurker what do you propose the government do about Hindi that it is not currently doing. What are the set of actions it should take? If you are proposing making Hindi mandatory at any level, then its simply not practical. Adoption has to be voluntary.

[Lurker]

Lurker what do you propose the government do about Hindi that it is not currently doing. What are the set of actions it should take?

It is more to do with people than Government me thinks. In a country as vast as ours, with the kind of population we have and the regional bias that exists any action by the Government will only make for endless arguments (some violent) across different part of the country. Government can facilitate it but the real effort has to come from people, and the first step should be , in my humble opinion, educated folks from non-Hindi belt to give this a serious thought as to whether they would much rather be ignorant about the most widely spoken language in the nation or perhaps do something about it? Personally I think it is stupid to start a language war at this time in history when we should be building our nation, lifting people out of poverty etc. At the same time it should also be said that we are now in 7th decade of our Independence and somehow never seem any time to have even a meaningful debate in Parliament let alone do anything about it.

If you are proposing making Hindi mandatory at any level, then its simply not practical. Adoption has to be voluntary.

Agreed. See above.

[Vijay.Sharma]

For me it is rather easy actually. I am interested with regards to India only' date=' now if you are wondering about which language should be de facto language of the world maybe you should be having this discussion at the United Nations?[/quote']Well, your case is a typical narrow minded nationalistic tribal mentality. This is not a slur, Lurker so please forgive me if you are offended. It's hardly any different from the case of a Kannadav Vedike group or Raj Thackeray. They are also interested only in their group. So, why should your group scope be given more priority than theirs?

[Vijay.Sharma]

History is a big subject and I like to keep things in life simple' date=' atleast mine.[/quote']Of course History is a big subject. But I think if you are truly an Indian at heart then when you are told about your land's History you would at least have the curiosity to learn at least a little bit of the truth. Do yourself a favor - before embarking upon your pseudo nationalistic jingoism first learn a bit about the History of the land and then you may understand why I am referring to your nationalistic pride as a "pseudo". It's just plain, unadulterated jingoism with no perspective or knowledge about Bharatvarsha's civilization. Sorry that you had to hear those harsh words but I am not sorry for saying it. Of course there is! It is about implications of changing the language to Hindi. Will the Tamilians accept it? If they don't then why would you think they won't? Have you ever done a proper root cause analysis in your life and figured how to tackle a problem based on the root causes. I am telling you the root cause of the resistance to other northie languages, especially by Tamilians, is the aryan-dravidian lie that has been taught to us. Now until you handle that root cause you are not gonna solve this problem. Or do you think the problem needs to be solved by forcing ppl to accept hindi? Sorry Lurker, I ain't being sarcastic. I am being very very very direct. I am telling you how it is without sarcasm. It is bloody direct and assertive (probably aggressive even, I'll agree)

[Vijay.Sharma]

It is more to do with people than Government me thinks. In a country as vast as ours, with the kind of population we have and the regional bias that exists any action by the Government will only make for endless arguments (some violent) across different part of the country. Government can facilitate it but the real effort has to come from people, and the first step should be , in my humble opinion, educated folks from non-Hindi belt to give this a serious thought as to whether they would much rather be ignorant about the most widely spoken language in the nation or perhaps do something about it? Personally I think it is stupid to start a language war at this time in history when we should be building our nation, lifting people out of poverty etc. At the same time it should also be said that we are now in 7th decade of our Independence and somehow never seem any time to have even a meaningful debate in Parliament let alone do anything about it. Agreed. See above.

Great! And the people don't find it necessary. So what will you do now?