Jatropha - India's magic cash crop

[CC1981]

already do. they use lithium ion batteries and regenerative braking. recharging time: 9 minutes for a 300 mile journey. and in city driving conditions, make that 350 miles. look up tesla motors.

Okay...i should've qualified my comments better...is that car you speak of even remotely affordable ( ie, in the 25 grand or less range) ? I'd hazard a guess it is nowhere near affordability on a bulk consumer basis. Btw, how on earth does a car have better range in city conditions than highway ? I thought highway driving is the most fuel-efficient.

there are something called organic plastics. its actually a soybean oil derivative that has polymers quite like those in plastics and can be moulded just like plastic. had this technology since 1940s when george washington carver of the tuskege university was winding down an illustrious career in soy bean related research. p.s. look up george washington carver, they guy is an inspiration.

Thanks for the info. I will definitely look into it. Thanks to you too, GP.

[THX_1138]

Okay...i should've qualified my comments better...is that car you speak of even remotely affordable ( ie, in the 25 grand or less range) ? I'd hazard a guess it is nowhere near affordability on a bulk consumer basis. Btw, how on earth does a car have better range in city conditions than highway ? I thought highway driving is the most fuel-efficient. Thanks for the info. I will definitely look into it. Thanks to you too, GP.

Thats what i said in my very first post and my previous posts in previous threads... we need to work on mass production of Lithium Ion Batteries that are at the cutting edge of all battery technology which is not saying much since they were first developed around the Apollo space program and have not seen any improvements since. In all Lithium Ion battery operated cars, the price is split at an incredible 60-40 range where 60 percent is simply the cost of the batteries. This is where india and for that fact china too come in. We have the technology and we have the ability to mass produce Li-Ion batteries such that the cost is driven down. At the moment, we have achieved just the same with solar panels driving down the unit cost of solar power from 28 cents a kilowatt hour in 2003 to about 21 in 2006 (without any new technology being introduced). And for your final query, how does a car give better mileage in the city than on the highway... well that is the outcome of what i have often mentioned "Regenerative Braking". i.e. when the car is slowing down, instead of losing all the torque to the brakes, a part of the torque is redirected to recharging the batteries. hence, a part of the charge is recovered as the vehicle slows down, brakes etc. This is also very readily available technology since it is in use in all Hybrid vehicles since that is how they recharge the batteries that run the electric motor that supplements the gasoline engine. hence, in the city when you speed up and then slow down, you put back some of the charge as opposed to on the highway where you are continuously discharging the batteries. look up the mileage specs for any hybrid vehicle, the city mileage is higher than that of the highway. finally, what is this obsession with range? how far do you suppose a regular vehicle with a 13 gallon tank goes to? and considering that the average american drives 250 miles a week, about 35 miles a day, which is certainly more than what an average indian drives a day, simple, cheap as dirt, lead acid batteries can supply enough charge for that range. come home, plug in the car, go to bed. wake up, remove the charging plug and drive away... the solutions are there, within reach, all we lack is to break the shackles of close mindedness and over familiarity with routine to adopt them. to be honest, all that prevents me from driving an electric car is that none are available here right now for purchase, and the only other option is to customize my own for about 3000 dollars. unfortunately that customization is done by garage mechanics and hobbyists whose skill i am skeptical of. if however, GM or Toyota offered an electric car (as they did in 1994 before they were discontinued since they presented a threat to the Internal combustion engine), i would buy one tomorrow. go watch this movie "who killed the electric car" absolutely worth the time. google stanford ovshinsky, he runs this firm in new jersey that is a maverick in battery technology and its implementation.

[THX_1138]

finally let me just add this... if you ever sat behind the wheel of an electric car you would realize that this machine can really freakin zip! currently only one vehicle exists amongst all street legal internal combustion engines that can outrun the tesla roadster... its the 350,000 pounds sterling porche carera GT

[THX_1138]

Okay...i should've qualified my comments better...is that car you speak of even remotely affordable ( ie, in the 25 grand or less range) ? I'd hazard a guess it is nowhere near affordability on a bulk consumer basis. Btw, how on earth does a car have better range in city conditions than highway ? I thought highway driving is the most fuel-efficient. Thanks for the info. I will definitely look into it. Thanks to you too, GP.

the japanese company eliica motors has even made a prototype luxury limousine that has a range of 400 kms per charge and a top speed of 200 kmph. there are no limousines that come even remotely close. and for this ultra luxuries vehicle, 70% of the entire cost is simply the cost of the batteries.

[CC1981]

Lithium Ion Batteries that are at the cutting edge of all battery technology which is not saying much since they were first developed around the Apollo space program and have not seen any improvements since. I

The rest of your post was very illuminating and heartfelt regards for that. But i gotto disagree with this part- i worked at Ballards for a while -though not directly at the fuel-cell dept, i was in a technical position (through co-op) for 4 months. The entire point of Ballard's existance is that it has developed fuel-cell technology to levels beyond the 1960s you speak of.

finally, what is this obsession with range? how far do you suppose a regular vehicle with a 13 gallon tank goes to?

My obsession with range is specific to my demands for a vehicle. I dont require a vehicle for regular commuting- Vancouver has excellent public transportation that is more than adequate for me to go all the places i want to (job/school/friend's places, bars, airport, downtown, etc). My requirement for a vehicle however is due to my affinity towards camping & long drives. I have a genuine problem if range is severely restricted due to electric cars. Though a 300 km range sounds adequate, especially if recharging it is as simple as finding a proper adapter plug and plugging it into the proper voltage socket. I have one final query about electric cars- they are super silent and i think it could pose problems in mass traffic- we do rely a lot on the engine-noise of a vehicle to alert us of its presence when driving or crossing roads etc. Do you think that the super-silence of electric cars could cause a lot more accidents or is there ways around this ? PS: I've driven an electric car- though its top speed was only 85kph and it was a solar powered car ( a lot of north american universities have a rolling solar car contest as one of the 'club activities' in engineering). gotto say that its acceleration is something to marvel at, as well as how much more real-time responsive the engine is to your commands. It messed up my driving the first time i drove it- it almost seemed to defy newtonian physics !

[THX_1138]

The rest of your post was very illuminating and heartfelt regards for that. But i gotto disagree with this part- i worked at Ballards for a while -though not directly at the fuel-cell dept' date=' i was in a technical position (through co-op) for 4 months. The entire point of Ballard's existance is that it has developed fuel-cell technology to levels beyond the 1960s you speak of.[/quote'] I am talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. Fuel cells are a rather ellaborate device which is NOT A BATTERY! its an engine! its a device that takes in compressed hydrogen, combines it with oxygen and releases electricity (heat that is converted using a thermocouple) and water. These devices have not seen a decline in price since the only place they are used are in the space program and the handful fuel cell powered cars. Lithium Ion batteries are different, they are BATTERIES, i.e. they need to be recharged. wanna see one? go buy a laptop and notice how quickly you can recharge it from a zero charge. see how efficiently it works and how small it is. unfortunately its bloody expensive and it has not been improved upon in quite some time. and it still remains very expensive. this is what we can break with our ability to mass produce.

My obsession with range is specific to my demands for a vehicle. I dont require a vehicle for regular commuting- Vancouver has excellent public transportation that is more than adequate for me to go all the places i want to (job/school/friend's places, bars, airport, downtown, etc). My requirement for a vehicle however is due to my affinity towards camping & long drives. I have a genuine problem if range is severely restricted due to electric cars. Though a 300 km range sounds adequate, especially if recharging it is as simple as finding a proper adapter plug and plugging it into the proper voltage socket.

they use regular 110v sockets. most electric cars come with an elaborate home recharge station as well as a portable one. a lot like plugging in a recharger. you take the bloody thing, plug one end into the wall and forget it. period. and once again, and for the last bloody time... its 300 miles, i.e. about 480-500kms. more than you get on a full tank from an scv or any car larger than a compact.

I have one final query about electric cars- they are super silent and i think it could pose problems in mass traffic- we do rely a lot on the engine-noise of a vehicle to alert us of its presence when driving or crossing roads etc. Do you think that the super-silence of electric cars could cause a lot more accidents or is there ways around this ?

you are the first person complaining about too little a noise. want to counter it, attach a small circuit with a speaker to imitate your favorite vehicle's noise, but really of all your objections so far, this is the least sensible if not downright stupid.

PS: I've driven an electric car- though its top speed was only 85kph and it was a solar powered car ( a lot of north american universities have a rolling solar car contest as one of the 'club activities' in engineering). gotto say that its acceleration is something to marvel at, as well as how much more real-time responsive the engine is to your commands. It messed up my driving the first time i drove it- it almost seemed to defy newtonian physics !

thats a solar powered car which is a derivative of a golf cart engine. its a vehicle that does not need to be recharged and is not practical unless we can make solar panels that can trap much more than the current 4-6% incident energy on them. thats not what i am talking about here. electric cars are a lot more practical, lot more faster and accelerate a lot better.

[gator]

THX... all good and correct points... there was so much of pressure on GM when they came out with the electric car.... there could have been a lot more development if not for political pressure.... developing tht battery further aint so hard, but politics..... lets see, GM is planning to launch another....

[THX_1138]

THX... all good and correct points... there was so much of pressure on GM when they came out with the electric car.... there could have been a lot more development if not for political pressure.... developing tht battery further aint so hard' date=' but politics..... lets see, GM is planning to launch another....[/quote'] actually quite the reverse! GM sued the California government since they had raised the proposed emission standards to compare to the levels then prevelant in Japan and Europe! infact, Detroit is currently fighting a legislature that would force them to meet mileage and emission standards by the year 2015 that most japanese vehicles have had since 2001! infact the EV1 the electric launched by GM was forcibly taken away from the drivers who kept requesting GM that they wished to purchase them but were not permitted and eventually destroyed. Why? well think about it, the electric car was faster, quiter, and much more fuel efficient, never needed anything more than a window washer fluid refill for maintenance, had a transmission built into the drive i.e. very few moving parts and above all suffered considerably little wear and tear. a vehicle such as this would have forced all the motor vehicle manufacturers to rethink their entire approach, put big oil out of business and thus was the target of the wraith of both big oil and detroit.

[gator]

GM sued the California government since they had raised the proposed emission standards to compare to the levels then prevelant in Japan and Europe! infact, Detroit is currently fighting a legislature that would force them to meet mileage and emission standards by the year 2015 that most japanese vehicles have had since 2001!

i didnt quite get tht.... u saying, GM killed it electric car cos they couldnt meet california standards??? why would an electric car have emission problems.... it had a proper and commercially viable model available, with huge demand.... california's emission standards increase affected the european models the most because of their high percentage of diesel models... diesels were banned in california a few years bak.... infact, a 5 yr old jetta tdi sells here on the used market for as much as a new car rate....

[THX_1138]

i didnt quite get tht.... u saying, GM killed it electric car cos they couldnt meet california standards??? why would an electric car have emission problems.... it had a proper and commercially viable model available, with huge demand.... california's emission standards increase affected the european models the most because of their high percentage of diesel models... diesels were banned in california a few years bak.... infact, a 5 yr old jetta tdi sells here on the used market for as much as a new car rate....

ok here is what happened: (in the chronological order of events)

1. California in the mid 90s under a resurgent democratic held state congress pressed for rigid emission standards and passed a resolution which demanded that automakers introduce a zero emission vehicle.
2. GM launched the EV1, Honda launched an electric compact, Toyota launched an electric variant of the RAV 4 and Ford sat on its arse.
3. GM's EV1 was a clear favorite amongst these as it was small, cheap to operate and thanks to the 4billion GM invested, had a state wide (mostly along the coast line in San Fran, LA and Sacramento) infrasturcture where vehicles could be recharged while away from home. Usually they required to be recharged for 6 hours for a 60 mile journey since they used Lead Acid batteries.
4. Noticably, none of the automakers let people purchase the vehicles. they were all "leased", hence at the end of the lease, you had to approach GM and request them to renew your lease or else you lost your vehicle as the it belonged to the automaker.
5. Again noticably, none of the automakers advertised them. GM did launch one ad campaign but consumer review studies revelead that the advertisement was very perplexing and uninformative. Infact, over two thirds of the people had no idea what was being advertised. such was the bigotry of the ad that it did not mention that the vehicle is electric, zero emission, and above all very affordable.
6. around this time, GM began to launch its Hummer which had hitherto been a successful combat vehicle. an internal memo declared that GM was more interested in pressing for the Hummer as compared to the EV1 and intended to discard of the latter.
7. slowly and steadily as the lease terms expired, GM refused to renew the leases. in a classic example, an individual took his vehicle in to a GM show room to have his wind shield wiper fixed but was later informed that he could not drive his vehicle home as it had been recalled.
8. a few maveric individuals finally tracked down the location of all the recalled electric vehicles to a secluded parking lot from where they were being steadily taken to a landfill where they were being, and this is true, being crushed and destroyed.
9. in the mean time GM and long with Ford sued the state of california to remove the mandatory emission requirements and the zero emission vehicle launch requirement.
10. on the side, GM, Honda and Toyota were busy destroying their electric vehicles and in a notorious event, were caught red handed destroying brand new shinny vehicles on tape for a live local news channel who was at the landfill/junkyard for some other reasons.
11. the maveric supporters who had tracked the vehicles staged a 24 hour vigil preventing GM from remove more vehicles from the parking lot by not permitting the vehicles to be removed form the lot. GM called the police...
12. the supporters them immediately took up pledges in amount of over 1.3 million dollars to purchase the remaining vehicles on the parking lot right there and then.
13. GM refused, the last few vehicles, one of which was leased to noted celebrity and environmentalist Ed Beagly Junior was recalled in 2003. it not awaits destruction.
14. GM and the state of california reached a settlement, the mileage requirements and zero emission vehicle clauses were anulled.
15. there is only one surviving prototype at a auto museum which was donated by GM, of course with the engine removed.

if there ever was an example of greed superseeding consideration and forsight, this was it. almost like poetic justice, GM and Ford went on to suffer massive losses and were soon surpassed in automobile sales by Toyota and Honda who were busy perfecting low emission and high mileage vehicles throughout the 90s. in 2005, toyota launched its Pirus, a 60 mile a gallon vehicle, GM launched the Magnum, a 14 mile a gallon vehicle. but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. in San Jose, a bunch of engineers formed Tesla motor inc, which will launch its first vehicle for commerical sale in august 2008 (currently there is a waiting time of over 2 years for new bookings, such is the demand). the vehicle, its body designed by Lotus has a rear drive electric motor engine that runs on Lithium Ion batteries stored under the passenger seats. recharging time: 10 minutes to 30 minutes for an average of 200miles or more of driving. currently the Porche Carerra GT is the only commerical automobile faster than the Tesla Roadster. The Roadster costs about 90K and gives a mileage economy of about 2 cents a mile, judging by contemporary oil prices, 120-150 miles a gallon.

[CC1981]

I am buying this Tesla roadster if/when the price drops to 50K or less. Lotus is a seriously heavyweight name in the mix.

[CC1981]

THX- you seem to know more than anyone else here on this topic - can you clarify on the charge-up time please ? the Tesla motors inc. site says that charging takes overnight/2-3 hrs. Earlier you said it can be charged in minutes...eh ?!? 2-3 hrs charging time i suppose is pretty decent for the average user but if you do run out of charge on the road, its a serious refuelling issue...i dont think my employer will be happy to hear 'my car died' as an excuse to miss half a day's work.

[THX_1138]

THX- you seem to know more than anyone else here on this topic - can you clarify on the charge-up time please ? the Tesla motors inc. site says that charging takes overnight/2-3 hrs. Earlier you said it can be charged in minutes...eh ?!? 2-3 hrs charging time i suppose is pretty decent for the average user but if you do run out of charge on the road' date=' its a serious refuelling issue...i dont think my employer will be happy to hear 'my car died' as an excuse to miss half a day's work.[/quote'] there are two chargers: the home charger and the portable one. both convert AC to DC and thus there is a drop in efficiency depending on how stable your source is. usually for home units, there is a big capacitor (not literally big) that acts like a voltage stabalizer, and thus permits a higher amplitude DC conversion. hence, charging at home will be faster. moreover, there are two types of batteries. Lithium Ion that takes very little time, and the other, Nickle Hydride or Metla Hydride which are not as effecient as the Li-Ion ones but a lot less expensive, they take more time. the reason they say it takes overnight is since they suggest that you charge it at night when you are asleep. as they make the Li-Ion batteries cheaper and better, the charging time will drop and so will the price. right now, more than half the 90K goes towards the batteries and they come with an optimal 1000 charges warranty. beyond that the efficiency of the batteries drops. hence, you are looking into a battery change once every three to eight years depending on your use. the price is not likely to drop anytime soon since the batteries are still expensive.

[THX_1138]

THX- you seem to know more than anyone else here on this topic - can you clarify on the charge-up time please ? the Tesla motors inc. site says that charging takes overnight/2-3 hrs. Earlier you said it can be charged in minutes...eh ?!? 2-3 hrs charging time i suppose is pretty decent for the average user but if you do run out of charge on the road' date=' its a serious refuelling issue...i dont think my employer will be happy to hear 'my car died' as an excuse to miss half a day's work.[/quote'] there are several gauges that indicate charge and it also has a back up. i.e. it will not permit you to use a certain amount of remaining charge if you every drop low. that remaining charge would be saved for a 20 odd mile journey home or to a charger. sort of like, here is the point of no return, you have fuel only till the next gas station, leave all else and go home. also when you are at work, the portable charger works like using a cell phone charger, i.e. plug it into the wall socket in the parking garage and when you are leaving work, its fully charged.

[CC1981]

Btw, THX, whats your opinon on factors such as 'charge loss when sitting idle' and 'low return of charge with repeated recharging' for these batteries ? PS: If battery is to be changed every six-eight years and you earlier said that in electric cars, the battery cost itself is 60% of the total cost, it'd be like spending 50 thousnad dollars every six-eight years for this 90K roadster...how is that worthwhile ?

[THX_1138]

Btw, THX, whats your opinon on factors such as 'charge loss when sitting idle' and 'low return of charge with repeated recharging' for these batteries ? PS: If battery is to be changed every six-eight years and you earlier said that in electric cars, the battery cost itself is 60% of the total cost, it'd be like spending 50 thousnad dollars every six-eight years for this 90K roadster...how is that worthwhile ?

the engine shuts off during idle time. this is done in all hybrids at the moment. there is an AC setting that is says "economy". when you press that, then every time the car comes to a hault, the engine shuts off to save fuel, and when you accelerate, it uses the electric motor to move and then restarts the engine to take over. the economy setting boosts your fuel economy for a good 5 miles per gallon to about 15 miles per gallon depending on traffic. as for the batteries wearing out, thats what i meant by optimal charge. most lithium ion batteries dont charge all the way after about 1000 charges, but they dont become utterly useless. they are recycled. hence, when you need to change the batteries, the car comes with a warranty that will provide for it. you pay a small insurance premium during your coverage that includes battery overhaul etc. but believe me, this would be only repair you will ever need on your car. change the batteries... period. and some day when the batteries are cheaper, you could do that at wal mart (though the batteries are a lot bigger). on the other hand the lead acid batteries need to be replaced each year but would cost well under a 1000 bucks.

[CC1981]

Yeah but when you say that price of electric cars have 60% of the price in batteries, that batteries would require replacement in 6-8 years and the overall cost is 90 thousand dollars, you are essentially saying that a person is spending around 50,000 dollars on a new fuel cell every 6-8 years....on the long run, its like buying a house!

[THX_1138]

Yeah but when you say that price of electric cars have 60% of the price in batteries' date=' that batteries would require replacement in 6-8 years and the overall cost is 90 thousand dollars, you are essentially saying that a person is spending around 50,000 dollars on a new fuel cell every 6-8 years....on the long run, its like buying a house![/quote'] partly correct... but your batteries arent worth 0 when they are no longer optimum. they are replaced for a small fee, paid at the time of purchase of the car. look at it this way, instead of forking out a 1000 each year for repairs, you pay an additional 5 for a 10 year maintenance package or something.

[gorah_pindu]

The human race desperatly needs commercial space development, in order to sustain its economy - although fusion reactors would be pretty helpfull too. Right now, even most radioactive ores are only going to last a couple of centuries at most, and renewable sources of electricty, of which dams are the only significant one right now, will never account for a majority of power generation in all likelyhood.