A philosophical argument in favour of nihilism

[gorah_pindu]

Id like to sumbit to you an argument in favour of nihilism, the belief that no action or belief is any more desirable than another, because there are no universal truths or realities from which philosophical systems may be arrived at. In other words, id like to argue that life is meaningless, and all philosophical views are irrelevent. This pointlessness extends to the ideal of nihilism itself, and this entire pointless argument... :hysterical: Can truth ever be determined with any certainty? Even though the possibility is remote, the world itself may be an elaborate illusion. We cannot ever claim to know whether God exists or not, without being somewhat dishonest, since not only is conclusive proof an impossibility, but nothing approaching what most people would consider conclusive proof can ever be be found in favour of God, and no atheist can ever find a similar level of proof against an area of existence which can never be directly observed (if it exists). While a philosophical sceptic might doubt everything in the world, in practice, we have to live within the science of the world in order to survive - and thus we make the assumption that the laws governing the world (science) are correct. If this science which governs existence is to be believed, then all human motivations amount to nothing more than chemical interactions. All human actions are therefore only made more or less desirable due to mechanics - humans can only feel compassion for example by being familiar with the plight of another, or imagining that plight - hence a casuality list written on a piece of paper causes no emotional reaction unless a person forcibly considers the plight of others within the context of some sort of familiar relationship. This compassion is in turn only a defence mechanism against herd retribution, and makes a member of the species more likely to pass its genetic material onward - one's evolved instincts protecting oneself. All posetive human behavior, including the following of laws, whether godly or secular, is therfore only a selfish defense mechanism, designed to prevent harm befalling oneself. Removing the fear of retribution from a human would thus create a remorseless killer and rapist, taking pleasure from any source he/she could, without limitation. Godly laws work by instilling fear of retribution, and secular laws work on the principle that hurting others will indirectly hurt onself. In short, all human actions are self-obsessed ones (no matter how indirectly), and there is no point pretending otherwise - we are all selfish to the core. Within those two systems of philosophical motivation (religious and secular), there are various beliefs which aim to create a better life for humans. They can be secular, like nationalism, atheism, communism, or religious, like the various religions. They each promise a better life (heaven and heaven on earth in the case of religion for example, and heaven on earth in the case of most secular systems). These belief systems, causes or idealisms encourage humans to believe in a philosophical system for their own selfish betterment - and when they dont produce the desired results, people either practically abandon them, or fanatically insist on their truthfullness, and blame their failure on incorrect implimentation or outside interfearance (this argument should sound familiar to anyone who has ever heard a fanatic, whether nationalist, or communist, or religious, rant about their ideology - its always a case of "country X isnt a real follower of belief Y" or "country X was prevented from implimenting true belief Y by enemy Z"). Even practicality is an ideal - who is to say that being practical is any preferable to being fanatical? Afterall, a fanatic derive some measure of pleasure from his/her fanatical belief just the same as a practical person might derive some form of pleasure from rejecting an ideal, and moving to another. So, in conclusion, no action is preferable to another. Even this pointless post is a semi-aware attempt at idealistic self-betterment by a person who believes that if everyone was aware of the futility of ideals and causes, there would be less cases of fanatical violence and bigotry in the world, limiting his freedom to enjoy life. But I would merely be imposing my own non-definative idea of a better world on others, by attempting to eliminate things like bigotry, which I see as undesirable - because who is to say that the fanatic who wants to purge some 'foreign' influence is any less right in their own desire? Since there is probably no inherent right or wrong, or truth, neither action are more or less right than the other. I dare say that cynics, sceptics, and people who literally believe in nothing (nihilists) are more realistic about life, and have in my opinion reached the most philosophically honest and justifiable 'belief' (oh the irony), but then, who is to say philosophical realism is any more desirable? So carry on as you were :haha:

[Lurker]

Can truth ever be determined with any certainty?

I believe that is the crux of the argument. In my opinion Truth is like Beauty, it lies in the eyes of the beholder. One reason why I never claim to say "I speak only the truth" or "I am merely stating the facts"..truth/fact are often variance depending on time/people. Who can say with any certainty that there is any absolute truth? Frankly this is one reason why I steer away from philosphy. If one gets too deep inside it, it create a feeling of depression a palpable gloom. No wonder many of the great philosphers were brooding, lonely men. It is hard to think so hard and not be consumed by the sheer irrelevance of everything. I beleive this is one reason why Religion has become such an integral part of many human beings(I am not by the way). There are many questions which we do not know answers, and often it is better to just accept that there is a Superpower, someone out there that controls the world and knows the answers, rather than thinking there are no answers at all. xxx

[varun]

Nihilism can be well served if applied to negative emotions like stress, worry, fear, anguish, etc. In other words, "upar uth jao" and see the bigger picture and the pettiness and pointless-ness of it all and your stress/worry levels can be reduced :cantstop: Even though reason might dictate that everything is indeed pointless (as we're finally going to die and thereby the world ceases to exist for the consciousness that "I" think is "me"), the problem with applying Nihilism to everything that we do is that our minds and bodies are genetically programmed to function in a certain way which rejects nihilism. Evolution has guaranteed this programmatic behaviour, and we cannot escape our most basic instincts of survival and species-expansion. These basic instincts ingrained in us which make us feel "alive" is contrary to what nihilism advocates and thus even though nihilism might be what reason prefers, it's not "natural" for us as living organisms.

[King]

I never knew of Nihilism. I guess we can find quite a few Nihilists (if you can call them that) on the streets. There are these perfect professionals that one day kick everything away and lead a life of streets just because they have got sick and tired of the general way of living. The plasmas, gadgets and the rest won't tempt them. They seem to realize all they need is couple of meals. The Govt provides them the dole money and they use that for their 3 meals a day. There are not too many of this type where I live but they seem to really be happy in the state they are in. Only we folks reckon they aren't happy but they must be laughing at us guys that is working arse off to get sucked into the absolutely needless stuff. I've shown a trait of philosopher I'm told for the scant respect I show towards money but am not over money. I did have worrying days in my 20s where I really wanted to make truck load. I'm lot easy now, money doesn't really inspire me anymore. I just take whatever comes my way.

[gorah_pindu]

I believe that is the crux of the argument. In my opinion Truth is like Beauty, it lies in the eyes of the beholder. One reason why I never claim to say "I speak only the truth" or "I am merely stating the facts"..truth/fact are often variance depending on time/people. Who can say with any certainty that there is any absolute truth? Frankly this is one reason why I steer away from philosphy. If one gets too deep inside it, it create a feeling of depression a palpable gloom. No wonder many of the great philosphers were brooding, lonely men. It is hard to think so hard and not be consumed by the sheer irrelevance of everything. I beleive this is one reason why Religion has become such an integral part of many human beings(I am not by the way). There are many questions which we do not know answers, and often it is better to just accept that there is a Superpower, someone out there that controls the world and knows the answers, rather than thinking there are no answers at all. xxx

Yes, I agree with your comparison with the maxim that 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' - belief seems to be equally as relative. Although one who looks deepy into the world is bound to 'feel the void stare back into him' as Nietzche put it - I wonder if religion really does provide any more relief? Ill try to explain what I mean: We seek this same chemical happyness in life. Some pople achieve it through spirituality, some people achieve it through materialism. In the end, devotional belief to a god is no more constant a source of chemical satisfaction, than say, brosing shops everyday, or reading tons of books - even a religious person has regular moments of questioning, just like the guy who sits on the couch watching TV and sometimes questions his worth. I dont think either system is any better than the other - both spiritualism and materialism provide 'hits' of happyness. Thus by acknolweding the lack of any meaning in life, and undersanding what makes me chemically happy, im better able to manage happyness in life. Take this example: When a human dosent have contact with fellow humans on a 'friends' level for too long, it withdraws into depression - it starts to question its own worth, meaning of its existence, etc - this 'existential dread' or 'angst' is as certain as a light switch being turned on. So, in light of this, I am able to better withstand trivial bouts of angsty depression, knowing that they are only an inevitable chemical reaction, and I place importance on the realtionship with my friends, knowing that it is one of the primary sources of happyness in my life. I dont realy think religion as a system is any better or worse at comforting people than materialism - its just a matter of preferance. I suppose spirituality dosent require economic participation to work - but on the other side of the coin, materialism helps the economy, and anyone with a source of income can engage in it. Thats why im largely unmoved by calls for greater spirituality in modern life - its just another source of entertainment for the brain like any other.

Nihilism can be well served if applied to negative emotions like stress' date=' worry, fear, anguish, etc. In other words, "upar uth jao" and see the bigger picture and the pettiness and pointless-ness of it all and your stress/worry levels can be reduced[/quote'] Yeh, exactly - it lends perspective to those things.

Even though reason might dictate that everything is indeed pointless (as we're finally going to die and thereby the world ceases to exist for the consciousness that "I" think is "me")' date=' the problem with applying Nihilism to everything that we do is that our minds and bodies are genetically programmed to function in a certain way which rejects nihilism. Evolution has guaranteed this programmatic behaviour, and we cannot escape our most basic instincts of survival and species-expansion. These basic instincts ingrained in us which make us feel "alive" is contrary to what nihilism advocates and thus even though nihilism might be what reason prefers, it's not "natural" for us as living organisms.[/quote'] True - humans are drawn towards ideals, causes, beliefs, etc, out of an evolutionary drive. We become fanatics about ideals because we start to think of people who follow them as our tribe, and others as the enemy tribe (religious and secular strife). And we tend to follow systems, and rarely re-evaulate our beliefs due to the nature of the human brain's pathways. Very good observation.

I never knew of Nihilism. I guess we can find quite a few Nihilists (if you can call them that) on the streets. There are these perfect professionals that one day kick everything away and lead a life of streets just because they have got sick and tired of the general way of living. The plasmas, gadgets and the rest won't tempt them. They seem to realize all they need is couple of meals. The Govt provides them the dole money and they use that for their 3 meals a day. There are not too many of this type where I live but they seem to really be happy in the state they are in. Only we folks reckon they aren't happy but they must be laughing at us guys that is working arse off to get sucked into the absolutely needless stuff. I've shown a trait of philosopher I'm told for the scant respect I show towards money but am not over money. I did have worrying days in my 20s where I really wanted to make truck load. I'm lot easy now, money doesn't really inspire me anymore. I just take whatever comes my way.

Yes - infact, to a certain extent im like that. I would be happy with a job that isnt too hard or highly paid, as long as I could still buy the things I wanted, like books, internet, TV, games, etc - I wouldnt mind being a call centre worker my entire life as long as I had a decent set of friends, and plenty of entertainment - im content with that. Of course, there is still pleasure to be gained for some, in greater academic achievement - I have largely done my degree only for recognition that im not a dimwit, rather than out of any interest in the subject. I guess a lot of the artists and philosophers who went into jobs well below their level had a similar lack of interest in money.

[gorah_pindu]

"The Gods themselves are later than creation, so who knows truely whence it has arisen?" - Rig Veda "Thou feels pity where pity has no place. Wise men feel pity neither for what dies nor what lives. ... I am indifferent to all born things, there is none hom I hate, none whom I love." - Krishna, Bhagvad Gita "Those who love nothing in this world are rich in joy and free from pain." - The Buddha The western steriotype of the east may have been one of sprituality, but in the end, it seems the philosophy of the east contain strong elements of nihilism. And this nihilism is comforting, as varun mentioned above - stess/worry levels can be reduced.