India joins the N Club

[PaiN_KiLLeR]

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080064332 The 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) has finally given its nod to the Indo-US nuclear deal in Vienna on Saturday. Ending three decades of isolation, India has joined the elite nuclear club. The NSG waiver has come through on the third day of the crucial talks in Vienna after push from the highest political level, the opposing countries gave their nod. Sources say apart from External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee's statement, there is no reference to ban on tests or termination of deal if India tests. US President George W Bush called Prime Minister Manmohan Singh soon after the waiver came through. Congress president Sonia Gandhi congratulated the PM. Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon has told NDTV that the text permits full civil nuclear cooperation between India and the world. Atomic Energy's chief negotiator in Vienna Ravi B Grover told NDTV that it's a clean waiver for India at the NSG, changes in the draft made have been mutually agreed upon. "It's a clean waiver for India. Changes made in the draft is mutually agreed upon. We have no problem with the draft," said Ravi B Grover, Atomic Energy Negotiator. And the prime minister hailed it as a landmark decision. In a statement after the waiver the PM said: "This is a forward-looking and momentous decision. It marks the end of India's decades long isolation from the nuclear mainstream and of the technology denial regime. It is a recognition of India's impeccable non-proliferation credentials and its status as a state with advanced nuclear technology." Welcoming the waiver External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said, "We welcome the decision and thank NSG countries and the final outcome fully meets our expectations. NSG waiver a unique development, it is in India's interest." US Under Secretary, Arms and Control, John Roods has said that it is a historic moment for India and the decision will improve ties between India and the US. Sources have told NDTV that the new draft, which got the go-ahead by the NSG, has no reference to testing, enrichment ban and preprocessing technology ban. However, senior BJP leader Yashwant Sinha said, "We have given up our right to test forever." Criticising the NSG waiver CPI leader D Raja said that India has become a subject of US strategy. He said, "India has become a subject of US strategy and our opposition to N-deal will continue." Speaking about the development, Congress leader Digvijay Singh has said that it is a historic day for India and the Prime Minister and team has achieved an impossible task. External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee's statement on moratorium is a part of the N-waiver received by India. As per reports, Pranab's statement on Friday over India's commitment for non-proliferation played a crucial role in changing Austria's mind. Austria said they were among the last to yield. Meanwhile, China has stressed on balancing energy needs and non-proliferation. So, what does this mean for India? Essentially, it's a victory for Indian diplomacy and it brings India into international nuclear club. What it means for India # Access to nuclear technology without signing CTBT, NPT # India can buy nuclear reactors from US, Russia, France # India will get access to nuclear fuel from world market # India will have access to civilian space technology India will get access to nuclear technology without having signed the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty or Non Proliferation Treaty. It opens up nuclear commerce for India and it can buy nuclear reactors from Russia, France and USA. India will get access to nuclear fuel from the international market and also civilian space technology.

[Prudent]

Great news :two_thumbs_up: slap on the face of pseudo patriots :D

[novpj]

Hats off to Manmohan Singh - he was pragmatic and even risked the govt for the country whereas the right wingers have done nothing but create noise.

[varun]

Great news. How are they planning to dispose of the nuclear waste by the way ?

[Lurker]

Good news. I hope this shall help India achieve Energy Independence and move away as much as we can from fossil fuels. Specially in areas of the country where power supply is more regular and irregular. Regardless to say it will help both domestic and Industrial India. I do have apprehension about the moratorium that comes with the agreement. Ideally I would have wanted to have open options. Also it remains to be seen if this washes off all the sins of Manmohan Govt. To me that would be a bad news considering his party has done little of note otherwise, and in most cases have made the country worse than what it was before.

[seedhi]

Good news. I hope this shall help India achieve Energy Independence and move away as much as we can from fossil fuels. Specially in areas of the country where power supply is more regular and irregular. Regardless to say it will help both domestic and Industrial India. I do have apprehension about the moratorium that comes with the agreement. Ideally I would have wanted to have open options. Also it remains to be seen if this washes off all the sins of Manmohan Govt. To me that would be a bad news considering his party has done little of note otherwise, and in most cases have made the country worse than what it was before.

Lol!! Energy independence? When we are importing nuclear fuel and reactors from abroad how does that achieve energy "independence"? Moreover what are India's options in case of a Pakistani test of a nuclear device? The congress will probably try to use this as an election issue which will be a disaster for it as its still an agreement with no actual impact. Maybe it might affect a tiny fraction of the elite voters. Already congress has hurt itself badly by embracing the SP and burning bridges with the BSP and the Left.

[Lurker]

Lol!! Energy independence? When we are importing nuclear fuel and reactors from abroad how does that achieve energy "independence"?

Thats akin to questioning India's food Independence by asking for International Assistance for its Green Revolution. Remember how that has panned over the years? There is NO need to re-invent the wheel. Specially researching in an area which is very time consuming and takes a lot of resources, human and economical. If we can get the assistance of those who have the technology why not??

Moreover what are India's options in case of a Pakistani test of a nuclear device?

Yes keep making policies with an eye on Pakistan. Then when USA(or China or Russia) does the same cry foul about it. That all said I have already raised this as one of my concerns. Ideally I would like to keep my options.

The congress will probably try to use this as an election issue which will be a disaster for it as its still an agreement with no actual impact. Maybe it might affect a tiny fraction of the elite voters. Already congress has hurt itself badly by embracing the SP and burning bridges with the BSP and the Left.

That remains to be seen. This whole N-issue was widely covered in the media. And indeed this has been the top issue for pretty much a year now. So yes there were be an impact. I personally hope there is little impact as such, not too much a fan of Manmohan Singh's work but will have to wait and watch. xxx

[seedhi]

Thats akin to questioning India's food Independence by asking for International Assistance for its Green Revolution. Remember how that has panned over the years? There is NO need to re-invent the wheel. Specially researching in an area which is very time consuming and takes a lot of resources, human and economical. If we can get the assistance of those who have the technology why not?? Yes keep making policies with an eye on Pakistan. Then when USA(or China or Russia) does the same cry foul about it. That all said I have already raised this as one of my concerns. Ideally I would like to keep my options. That remains to be seen. This whole N-issue was widely covered in the media. And indeed this has been the top issue for pretty much a year now. So yes there were be an impact. I personally hope there is little impact as such, not too much a fan of Manmohan Singh's work but will have to wait and watch. xxx

Come on, we only imported the technology for the green revolution. The fertilizers, soil, water and seeds were ours. In this case we will be importing reactors and more importantly even the fuel which is a huge problem. Anyway, I hope we tread carefully and do not in anyway undermine our own thorium based program since we have deposits of thorium and not uranium. Congress will be extremely naive to project an agreement(without any concrete benefits as of now) as its achievement for five years. It will go the way of India Shining and may be even worse considering the inflation and the internal security situation. I hope we dont get Manmohan Singh next time too, he has no political authority to be PM.

[gs]

I would think, all NSG big shots including US, Russia, France, UK will have economic interests drive their policies. So if India can create a sufficiently big market for them, then they will "understand" India's concerns if it were to conduct a nuke test again. I don't think any of these nations would jeopardize a multi-million dollar deals just for policy/ethics sake. For example, in spite of China's autocratic commie regime, we haven't seen any sanctions on it except for some "preachy" comments now and then. Instead the rest of the world is falling over each other to do business with China. How about Iran? It is openly hostile to the west, but still has a lot of clout simply because of its energy reserves. In short, business/economic interests decide everything. The bar is currently very low and hence any progress in the energy sector is good. Even if the suppliers were to stop supplying nuke material, would it make the energy situation in India any worse than what it currently is?? Instead, India would be in a better position with experience and expertise with the latest civilian nuke technologies. However, consistent research effort and progress on indigenous Thorium based nuke tech is a must. Ending India's nuke apartheid is a BIG step forward and in the right direction.

[gs]

Uncle Sam seems to solidly strong armed the commie regime in China China says it backs India’s nuclear ambitions

China says it backs India’s nuclear ambitions China abstained at razor-edge Uranium talks in Vienna as Indian officials elbowed their way to a diplomatic victory, but the Chinese government said in exclusive comments to Hindustan Times that it supported India's nuclear power ambitions. The comments from Chinese Assistant Foreign Minister Hu Zhengyue were sent to the Hindustan Times on the same evening when reports from Vienna said China had tried to stonewall a quick waiver for India at discussions of the Nuclear Suppliers Group. "Both China and India are major developing countries in rapid economic development. The two countries need secure, reliable and clean energy," Hu, 55, said in a written interview. "Therefore, China understands India's needs for civil nuclear energy and related international cooperation." India has refused to sign the nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, calling it discriminatory. So if it wants to get Uranium without signing the treaty, India needed a waiver from the 45-country NSG, which regulates international nuclear trade. In comments made as the talks were underway, Hu said: "Relevant issues are being addressed in the NSG. China hopes that NSG will find an appropriate solution that strikes a balance between nuclear non-proliferation and peaceful use of nuclear energy." A Chinese official separately told HT that despite the reports from Vienna, "our position has not changed from the text of the (HT) interview." The comments were made ahead of Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi's India visit beginning Monday. India's journey began with an unprecedented agreement in March 2006 that led to the United States changing its laws especially for India to allow Washington to sell Uranium to India going only by its word and past good conduct on nuclear affairs. The battle then went to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and then at NSG. "China believes all countries have the rights to peaceful use of nuclear energy and conducting related international cooperation based on the precondition of honouring international nuclear non-proliferation obligations," Hu said. He also commented on several other issues related to India-China relations. Here are some excerpts from the interview... Relations Strongest Ever "In the first half of 2008, the two-way trade reached US$29 billion, up by 68.7 per cent over the corresponding period of last year. It is the fastest growth rate among China's top 10 trading partners. India Must Relax Restrictions "The total trade volume at the Nathu La border trade market was only over RMB4 million (Rs. 2.4 crores) in 2007. China … hopes that India will further relax and eventually eliminate restrictions on commodities for border trade, which will help fully mobilize the enthusiasm of the businesses of the two sides." Dalai Lama "This year, India adopted measures to ensure the safety of torch relay of Beijing Olympic Games in New Delhi, and check anti-China activities by activists for "Tibet independence" on more than one occasion. China appreciates this. We hope India will continue to abide by its commitments on Tibet-related issues." Alleged Chinese Incursions "(The) China-India boundary has never been formally delimited … Pending an ultimate solution, China stands ready to work with India to maintain peace and tranquility in the border areas.. The two countries signed (agreements on this in 1993 and 1996) … China is serious about these two agreements." Border Dispute "There are still some outstanding issues left by history between the two sides ... It is necessary to proceed from the fundamental interests of the two countries and their peoples and find a fair and equitable solution acceptable to both. It is fair to say that positive progress has been made in negotiations on the related issues."

[Willow_on_fire]

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080064332 What it means for India # Access to nuclear technology without signing CTBT, NPT # India can buy nuclear reactors from US, Russia, France # India will get access to nuclear fuel from world market # India will have access to civilian space technology India will get access to nuclear technology without having signed the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty or Non Proliferation Treaty. It opens up nuclear commerce for India and it can buy nuclear reactors from Russia, France and USA. India will get access to nuclear fuel from the international market and also civilian space technology.

:two_thumbs_up:

[Willow_on_fire]

Hmmmm...not many happy ICFs on this thread....seems like somebody dropped a Nuclear bomb on them...:--D

[suraj]

I would think, all NSG big shots including US, Russia, France, UK will have economic interests drive their policies. So if India can create a sufficiently big market for them, then they will "understand" India's concerns if it were to conduct a nuke test again. I don't think any of these nations would jeopardize a multi-million dollar deals just for policy/ethics sake. For example, in spite of China's autocratic commie regime, we haven't seen any sanctions on it except for some "preachy" comments now and then. Instead the rest of the world is falling over each other to do business with China. How about Iran? It is openly hostile to the west, but still has a lot of clout simply because of its energy reserves. In short, business/economic interests decide everything. The bar is currently very low and hence any progress in the energy sector is good. Even if the suppliers were to stop supplying nuke material, would it make the energy situation in India any worse than what it currently is?? Instead, India would be in a better position with experience and expertise with the latest civilian nuke technologies. However, consistent research effort and progress on indigenous Thorium based nuke tech is a must. Ending India's nuke apartheid is a BIG step forward and in the right direction.

Glad to see that someone has a complete understanding of what it is all about- you nailed it :two_thumbs_up::two_thumbs_up: MONEY MONEY MONEY oooh yeah MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lurker]

Come on' date= we only imported the technology for the green revolution. The fertilizers, soil, water and seeds were ours. In this case we will be importing reactors and more importantly even the fuel which is a huge problem. Anyway, I hope we tread carefully and do not in anyway undermine our own thorium based program since we have deposits of thorium and not uranium.

Fair enough. However our disagreement(I think) was more conceptual rather than in entirety. I am quite comfortable if India does not go about re-inventing wheel all the time. In area like Nuclear technology we may have to spend a lot of money to have a proven solution and while total self-sufficiency would be awesome it would also require a lot of time/money/resources and we dont have that luxury. Further I am happy that India is now importing technologies that can actually change our lifestyle. For almost 2 decades, circa liberalisation, we have been most importing lifestyle - laptops, malls, hollywood, mcdonalds etc.

Congress will be extremely naive to project an agreement(without any concrete benefits as of now) as its achievement for five years. It will go the way of India Shining and may be even worse considering the inflation and the internal security situation. I hope we dont get Manmohan Singh next time too, he has no political authority to be PM.

This morning the news is the Headline on almost every newsmedia. Telegraph(Calcutta), Hindu(CHennai), Indian Express(Delhi), Hindustan Times(Delhi) etc. And its the lead Editorial as well. Most of the coverage has been extremely favourable...thus far. It remains to be seen how Congress "exploits" the issue but I will say that Indians, by and large, get all jingoistic when it comes to Nuclear technology. I would hate to see them get blinded by the deal and forget the mistakes of Congress, Manmohan and Sonia. xxx

[novpj]

Whats a better alternative than Congress? Since Vajpayee has left the scene BJP has become a party of goons - look whats happening in MP and surely you dont think that Mayawati or Mulayam are an option.

[seedhi]

Fair enough. However our disagreement(I think) was more conceptual rather than in entirety. I am quite comfortable if India does not go about re-inventing wheel all the time. In area like Nuclear technology we may have to spend a lot of money to have a proven solution and while total self-sufficiency would be awesome it would also require a lot of time/money/resources and we dont have that luxury. Further I am happy that India is now importing technologies that can actually change our lifestyle. For almost 2 decades, circa liberalisation, we have been most importing lifestyle - laptops, malls, hollywood, mcdonalds etc.

I have no problems about India importing technology etc that can change lifestyles. No need to reinvent the wheel as you say. But importing nuclear fuel is a totally different matter. Its even worse than importing oil as it comes with many many more strings. But I guess since we are (currently) deficient we need to do it, I just hope we go about things carefully.

This morning the news is the Headline on almost every newsmedia. Telegraph(Calcutta), Hindu(CHennai), Indian Express(Delhi), Hindustan Times(Delhi) etc. And its the lead Editorial as well. Most of the coverage has been extremely favourable...thus far. It remains to be seen how Congress "exploits" the issue but I will say that Indians, by and large, get all jingoistic when it comes to Nuclear technology. I would hate to see them get blinded by the deal and forget the mistakes of Congress, Manmohan and Sonia. xxx

Ofcourse, this would be the top news this morning. Just like the 1998 tests were in the news for a month. But this will be off the front pages within a week or even less and out of the general public memory. Congress has anyway sealed its fate by distancing the BSP and the Left. The BSP only has to put up candidates all across India to eat up Congress votes for the BJP to gain. Same thing happened in Gujarat and especially in Himachal and Karnataka elections. This and the delimination factor will probably ensure Congress loses.

[Lurker]

Whats a better alternative than Congress? Since Vajpayee has left the scene BJP has become a party of goons - look whats happening in MP and surely you dont think that Mayawati or Mulayam are an option.

Unfortunately there are not too many better choices(and likes of Mulayam, Laloo, Maywati, Jayalalitha dont count as choice). I hope the coming elections turns out to be a person-based rather than party-based elections. As in the best candidate wins in a constituency and not the party he/she represents. I can not help but think that this would be inherently better than voting along party lines. By the way this N-deal would never have happened if BJP was in power. Cry as they might, and BJP hasnt yet come out and congratulated the Govt anyway, there is no way USA and Western World would give a waiver to a right wing religious bigoted party. So for all the "desires" of BJP for Nuclear deal in the end it was better Congress was in power at the time this happened. xxx

[Lurker]

I have no problems about India importing technology etc that can change lifestyles. No need to reinvent the wheel as you say.

Actually here I differ. I would much rather have us import technologies that affects our nation positively rather than lifestyle. You only have to go to any large cities these days and see how it has been Americanised. Local bazaars have been replaced by shopping malls, even in small towns these days. An average Indian who would choose to walk to the nearest vegetable market, buy a few kg of potatoes and green leafy vegetable, bargain with the vendor and then walk back home is now replaced by couples jumping in the car, driving to nearest mall and having a bite of McDonald's while standing in the check out line. I am not a big fan of that change.

Congress has anyway sealed its fate by distancing the BSP and the Left. The BSP only has to put up candidates all across India to eat up Congress votes for the BJP to gain. Same thing happened in Gujarat and especially in Himachal and Karnataka elections. This and the delimination factor will probably ensure Congress loses.

Thats a fair argument, BSP will eat into traditional Congress SC/ST support. How much does it eat remains a question. Although I would pick a Congress candidate ahead of BSP anyday..generally speaking. xxx

[seedhi]

Actually here I differ. I would much rather have us import technologies that affects our nation positively rather than lifestyle. You only have to go to any large cities these days and see how it has been Americanised. Local bazaars have been replaced by shopping malls, even in small towns these days. An average Indian who would choose to walk to the nearest vegetable market, buy a few kg of potatoes and green leafy vegetable, bargain with the vendor and then walk back home is now replaced by couples jumping in the car, driving to nearest mall and having a bite of McDonald's while standing in the check out line. I am not a big fan of that change.

Bhai sahab, this is what you wrote in post # 14:

Further I am happy that India is now importing technologies that can actually change our lifestyle. For almost 2 decades, circa liberalisation, we have been most importing lifestyle - laptops, malls, hollywood, mcdonalds etc.

I just repeated that and said I have no problem.

Thats a fair argument, BSP will eat into traditional Congress SC/ST support. How much does it eat remains a question. Although I would pick a Congress candidate ahead of BSP anyday..generally speaking. xxx

Well its my analysis of the ground situation. BSP was a big factor in congress defeat in Himachal last Dec. It is clear that Mayawati and BJP have a tacit understanding that she put up candidates to eat congress votes and in return BJP will go easy on her corruption cases. Add to this the delimitation factor and congress is in deep trouble.

[Desi Cartman]

US Senate approves Indo-US nuclear deal. Senate okays deal 86-13