Effects of Language on culture and vice versa

[CC1981]

Solid Grounding in culture... like wat having a baby before getting married?? .. dint know punjabi's have a different culture.. :-p well if were tht girl who has done the same thing as mentioned in the OP, i wudnt give a hoot abt the language and culture.. jus *** it.. live with english..

By culture, i mean the arts, the histories, the epics, the music etc. of our nation. That is what i consider culture and so does my friend ( and so do most people, FYI). All this 'baby before marriage = dont give a hoot about that person/is uncultured' is unadulterated boolsheet. There is nothing cultural about the ritualistic boolsheet you or hundreds of millions of other Indians practice- its not culture, its indoctrinated rubbish that blind worship of God/God-avatars or blindly toting a so-called holy book leads to.Nothing wrong in having a baby before marriage and nothing 'great' about having a baby after marriage either... hell, nothing great in the whole concept of marriage either...its a total sham, a total waste of money and utterly unnecessary ( and completely unnatural). If you love someone, you will want to be with them and have babies with them- marriage or no marriage. You certainly don't need to get married to have a kid, there is nothing 'proper' about it and you certainly don't need to publicly proclaim your commitmet to your woman/man- how committed you are/she is, is crystal clear through your day-to-day interactions and heart-to-heart chats. All marriage is, is a pompous ceremony that while being fun and a social occasion, is ultimately, utterly boolsheet. And if you don't love someone and want out, you will walk - a baby or a piece of paper(marriage cert.) won't prevent that. The only reason i'd consider getting married is because of tax breaks for couples or ease of travel (eg: living overseas, easier for spouse to get visa than girlfriend). Anyways, glad to see that neither of you guys addressed my OP- perhaps it was too obtuse for you lot, so let me put it in simpler words: If you had a choice between teaching your kids hindi(national language and language of bollywood/indian culture thats easily accessable from the west) or your mother tongue, which one would it be ??

[Lurker]

If speaking fluent Hindi is the only way to stay connected in India' date= then I, as a citizen of India, have no chances of being connected to my country coz, my Hindi isnt the strongest.

They say 4 things connect India - English, cricket, Bollywood, Railways. I say - None of these are Indian. They are all British legacy, or in case of movies an American invention. Essentially Indians are connected by non-Indian things and that should be an eye-opener for most Indians. I wouldnt side-track the question at bare here, I would say its high time Indian Parliament did something about this whole idea of staying "connected" via a foreign language. xx

[CC1981]

Am I not connected then?

You are connected because you are an Indian who grew up in India/spent significant majority of your life in India..you are already familiar with the culture, you know where to look, how to interface, etc. Try looking at it from the perspective of someone who is not an Indian ( this kid isnt Indian) and is growing up overseas- for him to form the initial cultural link to India, outside of his immediate family would require familiarity with the culture and easy accessibility- which is what knowledge of Hindi provides.

Mother tongue, unequivocally. If the kid is going 'rarely' visit India, that too for a month or two every couple of years, English and mother-tongue is more than sufficient. After all, He/she is Canadian. I dont see that reason for him/her to get entrenched with Indian culture anyway.

Thank you for your response.

[satishg]

CC good points there mate abt marriage and culture :two_thumbs_up: anyway on the OP as MM had pointed out most ppl from south, i am not generalizing here but lets say a majority are not that fluent in Hindi and they do not watch bollywood..but still v are connected to India..i guess our upbringing played a part here, being born and brought up in Tamil nadu and now having come here, i still am connected to my country vry much and the language that is enabling me to do so is English.. so as such ur friends kid is definitely gonna learn English and i would say that the kid shd learn the mother tongue in this case Punjabi and im pretty sure that can also help the kid stay connected with his Indian roots..i mean even wen he goes back to India and if he wants to know abt the Indian culture im pretty sure his English will help him do that..u need not be well versed in Hindi to get to know those stuff rite..So my preference wud be English and the mother tongue

[CC1981]

I wouldnt side-track the question at bare here, I would say its high time Indian Parliament did something about this whole idea of staying "connected" via a foreign language.

Disagree. The whole concept of what is foreign and what is Indian is a function of perception and timeline and is arbitary. If you go back 2500 years or more, there is little difference between Indians and Persians- they considered themselves the same people and were seen by the outside world as the same people- they also fought (eg: against the Greeks, against the Massegatae) shoulder to shoulder. I am fully in favour of English being the lingua franca of India - for one, it IS the global language and it is undeniable that a major economic, social and cultural advantage Indians have over the Chinese or several other 'competitors' is our fluency in English - if we followed the course you are advocating, we would lose that advantage in no time. For two, English's foreign origin is precisely what makes it perfectly suited to be the lingua franca of India- by being foreign, its advocates are unbiassed and is not playing into the hands of regionalism. If you notice, there still is significant resistance to 'hindi-isation' of India ( tamils for eg resisted it and still resist it, so do the Bengalis) simply because it is seen as the hegemony of one group over another simply due to 'strength in numbers' philosophy. English didnt face that kind of resistance, except in the Hindi belt ofcourse because the hindi-stanis have seen it as a challenge to their language hegemony. Reality is, India is a collection of nations, collection of cultures who are united through common bonds of democracy, hinduism and culture. Not language - plus we've spent more time being seperate countries than one nation ala China. The only other alternative is to make Sanskrit the lingua franca of India but that is unfortunately, not feasable. You see, Sanskrit is a really well constructed language- so well constructed that a computer can understand it. That makes it an imperfect language for social purposes, because lets face it, society doesnt function very well when the language is too complicated and is a pain to learn - that is precisely why Sanskrit became prakrit and evolved into modern Indic languages, so going back to that would simply be repeating historical errors. Sorry to say, but English is the best course for India. Remember, one of the hallmarks of our nation is to assimilate foreign concepts and make it its own- lets not lose sight of that.

[Lurker]

Mods, can you split this thread so that the original issue is not side-tracked.

I am fully in favour of English being the lingua franca of India - for one, it IS the global language and it is undeniable that a major economic, social and cultural advantage Indians have over the Chinese or several other 'competitors' is our fluency in English - if we followed the course you are advocating, we would lose that advantage in no time.

There is NO advantage, lets stop kidding ourselves first of all. Firstly, if the argument is how a global language helps economy, then I say why not make a National Language, say Hindi, and see how that impacts Indian economy? But would Tamils be ready to learn Hindi? And if not then why is it fair to ask a Hindi speaking person to learn English? Secondly, by all accounts Hindi is spoken by a large amount of people. Atleast in the following states - Bihar, UP, Uttarakhand, MP, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Rajasthan , Delhi and is very easily understood in the following - Maharashtra, Gujrat, Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh. I would even add states like Bengal(atleast the border areas), Orissa, parts of AP, J&K, Assam and so on. Now lets do a count - That makes atleast 8 states where it is lingua franca, 5 where is it easily second language and another 4 that has a decent understanding. That makes 17 out of total 25. Compare this to English and show me how you can make that comparison even remotely similar. Thirdly, economic benefits. Those are all short term benefits. Till date no civilization has grown on adopting a foreign "connection". Sure we can all learn and improve upon them(case in point Nuclear deal), however to use the foreign tools to resolve domestic issues is quite simply horrendous. Lastly, lets stop comparing ourselves to China. Any sane person who watched Beijing Olympics should marvel as to the pride Chinese take in their culture and not even bring language into consideration. Remember the athletes marching as per the names of country in Chinese alphabets? The day India holds an event like that, the day foregin athletes walk in Hindi(or Sanskrit or whatever) language then you might have a case. xxx

[CC1981]

There is NO advantage, lets stop kidding ourselves first of all.

Utterly disagree...a FOB Indian is far more fluent in English than a FOB Chinese..and thats simply because English is largely integrated into the Indian society unlike China, where it is a completely artificial language they learn solely for the purpose of interfacing with foreigners.

And if not then why is it fair to ask a Hindi speaking person to learn English?

Because it doesnt pander to regionalism. We don't have a majority language - so we have to compromise. The best compromise that works for us is a foreign language under which India came of age in the modern era and lots of its institutions today are thanks to the presence of that language.

Now lets do a count - That makes atleast 8 states where it is lingua franca, 5 where is it easily second language and another 4 that has a decent understanding. That makes 17 out of total 25. Compare this to English and show me how you can make that comparison even remotely similar.

The fluency in English isnt as great as Hindi is in the hindi speaking belt(obviously)- but it is overall the most accessible language in India- the other states (outside the 17 and some of the 17 you mentioned) will see English being more fluent than Hindi.

Till date no civilization has grown on adopting a foreign "connection".

False. I raise you the Roman Empire : who not only linguistically but culturally, religiously and governmentally adopted Greek ethos and flourished- the entire Roman Republic/Roman Empire is a vivid refutation of your claim.

Any sane person who watched Beijing Olympics should marvel as to the pride Chinese take in their culture and not even bring language into consideration.

Yes, i marvel at it too- marvel at how way overboard and 'mountain out of a molehill' attitude they have towards their culture.

[Lurker]

Utterly disagree...a FOB Indian is far more fluent in English than a FOB Chinese..and thats simply because English is largely integrated into the Indian society unlike China, where it is a completely artificial language they learn solely for the purpose of interfacing with foreigners.

So the advantage is when a National leaves Indian shores and NOT inside. To me this is a weird kind of logic that a nation(India)'s economic success is tied in to the amount of brain drain that it does!!! Which developed country was built this way - US? Japan? Korea? England?? please name me some.

Because it doesnt pander to regionalism.

Where does regionalism come into play? I have given you proper numbers, 17 out of 25 states. Now if the remaing 8 have issues of sorts, shouldnt democracy take its course? Or is democracy regionalistic too?

We don't have a majority language - so we have to compromise. The best compromise that works for us is a foreign language under which India came of age in the modern era and lots of its institutions today are thanks to the presence of that language.

And your sense of compromise is going for a minority language??? What school of logic did you go to mate? I repeat what I had mentioned before. 8 states speak Hindi as lingua franca, 5 where is it easily second language and another 4 that has a decent understanding. That makes 17 out of total 25. Now you make find issues of fluency etc but please show me ONE, yes JUST ONE, state in India which is 100% English speaking?? I would say even NE states like Mizoram arent that way. So your assertion is we push a language that is spoken by almost 50-60% of the people and get on board of a language which isnt spoken by a fraction of that?

The fluency in English isnt as great as Hindi is in the hindi speaking belt(obviously)- but it is overall the most accessible language in India- the other states (outside the 17 and some of the 17 you mentioned) will see English being more fluent than Hindi.

Even if the rest states spoke English, which they dont, that will still make them 8 out of 25. Do your numbers. The issue is NOT with Hindi. The issue is with the typical Indian mentality of jumping on a foreign bandwagon(in this case English) and howling tears when it comes to things Indian. Didnt Karunanidhi burn Indian constitution on Marina beach for fear of "Hindi" being imposed?? ANd he is fine with English? Doesnt that tell you a story right there?

False. I raise you the Roman Empire : who not only linguistically but culturally, religiously and governmentally adopted Greek ethos and flourished- the entire Roman Republic/Roman Empire is a vivid refutation of your claim.

Thats an insane argument in the first place. Thats like saying Chinese adopted Indian culture and became famous!! of course Chinese adopted Buddhism, Indian school of thoughts and so on. Heck their language, Mandarin is an apbransh (Hindi word meaning adopted) borrows the term Mantri which in turn means Minister..as in Mandarin spoken by Ministers. Please feel free to read this entire text in Amartya Sen's book Argumentative Indian. Point being if two countries are close, Greek and Rome were not too far, there would be obvious influence. Now help me understand how close India and England are. And while you are it do give me an example where other countries have effectively built civilizations based on things Indian. xxx

[Lurker]

A follow up on this: 8 states that have Hindi as main language ( Bihar, UP, Uttarakhand, MP, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Rajasthan , Delhi ). Combined population 415 million. 5 states that have Hindi understood by a vast majority of people (Maharastra,Haryana, Punjab, Gujrat, Himachal Pradesh). And I say vast as in 75% plus number. I have never met a Marathi or a Haryanvi who didnt understand what I was saying. Anyway the combined population is 199 million. Just the sum of these two(without going into 3rd tier states like Bengal, Orrissa etc) is 600 million plus, an easy majority as far as population number goes. So what is the issue? And if the issue is "Regionalism" is it due to Hindi speaking states?? Or non-hindi speaking states who cant seem to get the number game here? Lastly if Hindi is spoken/understood by 600 million people how many people understand English?? xxx

[Lurker]

Why do you assume that would be the case. Do all Punjabis live only in Punjab. Seriously,the chauvinism shown by some punjabis on this forum is amazing. They make Bal thakerey look sane.

That is indeed the case, unfortunately. I am not sure when this happened, or if it was always like this, but I definitely see a lot of zingoism amongst Punjabis. An example here. Person A is a Muslim chap. He goes on saying how its okay to have "fun" with Hindu, Punjabi, Muslim or whatever girls but when it comes to marriage he will ONLY marry a Muslim. He is immediately tagged as someone whose religion is 2000 years old etc etc. Person B is a Sikh. He shall say the same thing namely - I will only marry a Sikh girl - and all seems to be well with that. I do realize I am doing a generalization, and also raising a religious issue( a no no on ICF) but that is very much true. xxx

[Lurker]

Generally speaking I have had so many discussion on language issue but I have never had one intellactually stimulating on the same. :(( No offense towards anyone but what bothers me is how illiterate most Hindi disliking population is. India is overwhelming Hindi(I have provided the numbers) but still those who dont speak Hindi dont want to learn it. Fair enough. But what is the reasoning here??? Has anyone even said the following, for example: a) Punjabi as a language is OLDER than Hindi and Urdu. So why should Punjabis learn Hindi? b) Bengali as a language is so much richer than what Hindi has to offer. Some of the all time greatest Indian writers have been Bangla. c) Tamil as a language is closest to our Sanskrit legacy. PLus it is atleast 1500 years older than Hindi in origin. There seems to be a complete intellactual deficiency when it comes to matter of language. It is just a pseudo chest thumping cultural pride yada yada. Of course an unarbridged fact is given a chance an Indian Hindi speaking parents(goes for other language too) would let their kids take French, Spanish, Italian over say Assamiya, Oriya or Telugu. xxx

[ludhianvi]

That is indeed the case, unfortunately. Person A is a Muslim chap. He goes on saying how its okay to have "fun" with Hindu, Punjabi, Muslim or whatever girls but when it comes to marriage he will ONLY marry a Muslim. He is immediately tagged as someone whose religion is 2000 years old etc etc. Person B is a Sikh. He shall say the same thing namely - I will only marry a Sikh girl - and all seems to be well with that.

Well, let's get the terminology right: difference between Punjabi and Sikh. More like some 1000 odd years old. In scenario B, you didnt include the 'fun' part

[ludhianvi]

Generally speaking I have had so many discussion on language issue but I have never had one intellactually stimulating on the same. :(( No offense towards anyone but what bothers me is how illiterate most Hindi disliking population is. India is overwhelming Hindi(I have provided the numbers) but still those who dont speak Hindi dont want to learn it. Fair enough. But what is the reasoning here??? Has anyone even said the following, for example: a) Punjabi as a language is OLDER than Hindi and Urdu. So why should Punjabis learn Hindi? b) Bengali as a language is so much richer than what Hindi has to offer. Some of the all time greatest Indian writers have been Bangla. c) Tamil as a language is closest to our Sanskrit legacy. PLus it is atleast 1500 years older than Hindi in origin. There seems to be a complete intellactual deficiency when it comes to matter of language. It is just a pseudo chest thumping cultural pride yada yada. Of course an unarbridged fact is given a chance an Indian Hindi speaking parents(goes for other language too) would let their kids take French, Spanish, Italian over say Assamiya, Oriya or Telugu. xxx

If you're referring to me, then my responses in the thread are directly related to the OP. As an Indian living in India, one should learn Hindi, heck its built into the school system. The scenario in the OP is completely different

[Lurker]

Well, let's get the terminology right: difference between Punjabi and Sikh. More like some 1000 years old. In scenario B, you didnt include the 'fun' part

Alright for the records I am speaking of Sikhs. Second comment was already qualified with 'He shall say the same thing" so not sure why have to repeat the entire statement. As for time period it would be closer to 1500(for Islam, unless you meant Sikhism) or so but who's counting?? The issue was being stuck in past. The key differential, as mentioned before, was chaps A and B shall be looked in different light even though they do the exact same thingy. xxx

[Lurker]

If you're referring to me' date=' then my responses in the thread are directly related to the OP. As an Indian living in India, one should learn Hindi, heck its built into the school system. The scenario in the OP is completely different[/quote'] Why would I refer to you?? Didnt I specifically state - Generally speaking?? And trust me if I did want to give you a response I will do so. My response was clearly about why people never express WHY they do not want Hindi and so on. I suppose I was clear enough so wouldnt want to repeat it. xxx

[ludhianvi]

Why would I refer to you?? Didnt I specifically state - Generally speaking?? And trust me if I did want to give you a response I will do so. My response was clearly about why people never express WHY they do not want Hindi and so on. I suppose I was clear enough so wouldnt want to repeat it. xxx

Well I can give you the reason. Language is very closely related to a culture. If you want to wipe out a culture's identity, then you start infiltrating the language. People fear this and dont adopt another language. Lands are divided based on the language spoken. As for myself, I love learning languages be it English, French , Hindi, Urdu, Japanese, Spanish, Chinese,or Punjabi, or Gujrati, or Marathi, or Tamil. I've tried my hand at all of them:D

[f.b.m]

No offense towards anyone but what bothers me is how illiterate most Hindi disliking population is. India is overwhelming Hindi(I have provided the numbers) but still those who dont speak Hindi dont want to learn it. Fair enough. But what is the reasoning here??? Has anyone even said the following, for example: a) Punjabi as a language is OLDER than Hindi and Urdu. So why should Punjabis learn Hindi? b) Bengali as a language is so much richer than what Hindi has to offer. Some of the all time greatest Indian writers have been Bangla. c) Tamil as a language is closest to our Sanskrit legacy. PLus it is atleast 1500 years older than Hindi in origin. There seems to be a complete intellactual deficiency when it comes to matter of language. It is just a pseudo chest thumping cultural pride yada yada. Of course an unarbridged fact is given a chance an Indian Hindi speaking parents(goes for other language too) would let their kids take French, Spanish, Italian over say Assamiya, Oriya or Telugu. xxx

Fair point, but what I find even more annoying is the large brand of noisy Hindi chest thumping idiots who whinge about how everyone in the country should speak the "national language" (with most of them not knowing that english is our national language too), how its a disgrace that Tamils, Bengalis, Assamese, etc cant soeak hindi and how those who cant speak hindi arent as Indian, blah blah blah. In my experience, most of these folk seem to be from Delhi. (which is unsurprising)

[Lurker]

Fair point' date=' but what I find even more annoying is the large brand of noisy Hindi chest thumping idiots who whinge about how everyone in the country should speak the "national language" (with most of them not knowing that english is our national language too),[b'] how its a disgrace that Tamils, Bengalis, Assamese, etc cant soeak hindi and how those who cant speak hindi arent as Indian, blah blah blah. In my experience, most of these folk seem to be from Delhi. (which is unsurprising)

Fair enough. I suppose there are jokers on all sides. I will keep simple what my issue is with people reluctant to learn Hindi - They never give Hindi a chance. Most of those who go all agressive about how Hindi will kill their "culture" have no idea about their culture in the first place! For example lets take the case of Marathi. It is one of the very best languages I have ever encountered and I was lucky enough to understand it a bit when I was in Bombay. I find it excellent language because: a) It is one of the rare languages where the negativity is right at the end of the sentence. You will never say - Dont hit me, instead what you will say is - Maaru naka. It is almost Yodasque language, a very unique amongst all languages I know. b) As compared to Hindi(I compare it since I have lived in Hindi and Marathi belt) it still retains some of the purest words. For example in Hindi one says Maa Kasam(as in I swear by my mother). Kasam is essentially Urdu and the line between Hindi/Urdu being very thin Kasam has been embraced by Hindi. I personally love the embrace of Hindi and Urdu but I also love how an ordinary Marathi will say Aai Shapath. Marathi also has one of the most vibrant literature and its theatre is easily the best(followed by Gujrati) amongst all languages of India. Although Marathi is probably not the best example since Marathis rarely have anti-Hindi feeling as say Tamil speakers but that example should hold good. If in the end English is selected on the "merits" of literature, contribution to India, roots in Indian culture I am perfectly fine by it. However the reality is English has none of those and yet we have a segment of population who just fails to realize that. xxx

[Sachin_Rulez]

Basically people who do not speak/can't understand hindi belongs to one of the below two categories 1. Do not want to speak or learn hindi at all. Even if they happened to know few words they still pretend not to know anything. Hate bollywood movies big time. 2. Do not hate hindi and try to learn as much as they can (by watching bolly movies or interacting with hindi speaking people, etc) We all know people from which particular state, down south, forms the majority belonging to category 1 (though there are some exceptions). Coming back to OP, yes, kid should learn HINDI. PS: I haven't interacted much with bengalis, so can't really comment if majority of them belongs to cat 1 or not (probably not)

[Lurker]

I missed this before so I would address it now.

Well I can give you the reason. Language is very closely related to a culture. If you want to wipe out a culture's identity' date= then you start infiltrating the language. People fear this and dont adopt another language. Lands are divided based on the language spoken.

That is a strange, and dare I say, a complete hollow argument from a Punjabi. As a Punjabi, which I take it you are, let me ask you what is the 3 Golden words for you? If I am not mistaken it would be Sat Shri Akaal. Now lets explore those 3 golden words: Sat - Truth, has origin in Sanskrit. Other popular meaning being hundred(sau). Shri - A mark of respect. Akaal - A + Kaal basically meaning timeless. How many words of the three are rooted in English??? All the three words have a deep rooting in Hindi. Lets take those words further - Jo Bole So nihaal OR Wahe guri ji ka khaalsa wahe guru ji ki fateh. Again look at the words and see how much influence Hindi, or in the least Indian language, has on the golden words for a Punjabi. So Hindi is going to kill Punjabi?? And how exactly does English help Punjabi? I find it a retarded comment that people beleive a language deeply rooted in Indian traditions will kill a fellow Indian language while a foreign language shall help it survive!! What is it if not intellactual bankruptcy? Lets look at this beautiful song by Hadiqa Kiyani. kYFjg-canyM Hindi is going to kill this Punjabi song with flute, dholak and words Baaji ishq ke di jit loongi Sonya main rab ko dua mangke boohe baariyan while English shall keep it alive?? Which world do you folks live in? xxxx