Lets win BG Trophy at Nagpur - whats the game plan?

[bharat297]

HS ... You realise we also only have 1 left-armer as well. Remember RP Singh really troubled the Aussies in Sydney and Perth.

[SachDan]

all said and done I don't think team management will drop Dravid going in to the all important series decider at Nagpur. hopefully with Father-in-law and Mother-in-law in the stands will help RD bring the best out of him.If at all any cheering is left!!

[Guest HariSampath]

Hari, If you are still presenting the 5 bowler argument after the Bombay 100 all out against a sissy England team then you are either too drunk or need to get a little drunk

Now you are probably drunk Suraj. 100 allout is no justification for not having 5 bowlers. If your idea is we need 6 batters and hence just 4 bowlers, read my posts again . We already HAVE 6 performing batters. Sehwag, Gambhir, Sachin, VVS, Ganguly and Dhoni, who between them have got more runs in one test than Dravid has in 15 tests !! I am just making that 11th position more productive by including Munaf, in place of Dravid . By the same argument...what about 4 bowlers bowling with 600 behind them letting Aus get 570 ?? and that too with Sehwag getting 5 wkts. Bowlers win matches. You go in with 4 bowlers ONLY if you have at least 2 certified , regular 5fers, or a terrific pace pair like Lillee-Thomson, Roberts-Holding, or if we have something exceptional like a Murali-Mendis combo. We dont have that. So we need 5 bowlers. Its really very simple, and just watch....its happening too.

[Guest HariSampath]

all said and done I don't think team management will drop Dravid going in to the all important series decider at Nagpur. hopefully with Father-in-law and Mother-in-law in the stands will help RD bring the best out of him.If at all any cheering is left!!

Dan...whats all this logic behind " cant afford to drop Dravid for the all important" etc....its a truck of bull excretion . thats what it is. It is precisely BECAUSE its an all important Nagpur test, I am saying drop Dravid...hasnt he be playing in all the earlier "all important tests",....averaging 20 over 15 inngs ?? so why have a player who is at the *** end of his career, under tremendous pressure, been a constant and undiluted failure, for an all imprtant game, especially when the other 6 batters are all averaging 60+ now, with tail too batting well .

[suraj]

Now you are probably drunk Suraj. 100 allout is no justification for not having 5 bowlers. If your idea is we need 6 batters and hence just 4 bowlers, read my posts again . We already HAVE 6 performing batters. Sehwag, Gambhir, Sachin, VVS, Ganguly and Dhoni, who between them have got more runs in one test than Dravid has in 15 tests !! I am just making that 11th position more productive by including Munaf, in place of Dravid . By the same argument...what about 4 bowlers bowling with 600 behind them letting Aus get 570 ?? and that too with Sehwag getting 5 wkts. Bowlers win matches. You go in with 4 bowlers ONLY if you have at least 2 certified , regular 5fers, or a terrific pace pair like Lillee-Thomson, Roberts-Holding, or if we have something exceptional like a Murali-Mendis combo. We dont have that. So we need 5 bowlers. Its really very simple, and just watch....its happening too.

By your argument we already have 5+ bowlers- ZK,IS,HS/AM, AK,VS with SRT able to roll his arm too?? can you tell me why do we have to win the Nagpur match if we draw this one- we win the series 1-0 against the World Champions if we draw the next one. And your argument is solely based on the fact that we can comeup with even a half decent score for even 7 bowlers let alone 5 to defend; on our best batting day SRT=6 batsmen, on our mediocre day 10 of our batsmen score 100 so let me predict this right now- there is no way we are going with your proposed lineup in Nagpur; the difference between a RD and SG is barely 1 innnings so all of these " specilaist batsmen" will end up in the line up- like it or not!

[Guest HariSampath]

HS ... You realise we also only have 1 left-armer as well. Remember RP Singh really troubled the Aussies in Sydney and Perth.

Yes, RP did trouble them in Aus, but his form has been a bit low in recent times. Munaf has done extremely well over last 2-3 months, and the fact they have 3-4 left handers will make me prefer Munaf over RP. Munaf also has the ability to come up with a 2 wkt burst and remove top batters all of a sudden, while RP can go a bit down if he is not starting well. Munaf has good aggression, I think he will seize a chance and do something good.

[DomainK]

Hari Sampat must be very fast on the key board. Never seen anyone else make such long posts so consistently. May be Lurker comes second.

[Guest HariSampath]

By your argument we already have 5+ bowlers- ZK,IS,HS/AM, AK,VS with SRT able to roll his arm too??

We DONT have 5 bowlers, and thats precisely my argument. We have only 3 bowlers in this test, Zak, IS and Mishra ( I cant count Sehwag, he is not a regular specialist, and like I said earlier, he is a very effective option to get an odd 3fer)...of course forget about Kumble. SRT ? ....look, if rolling the arm over makes a bowler....then swinging a willow makes batters...LOL...we have 11 in all games, by your definition

can you tell me why do we have to win the Nagpur match if we draw this one- we win the series 1-0 against the World Champions if we draw the next one.

Yes, I can tell you. Its a test match. We try to win. We dont have to win....but the moment we go in "trying to draw"...we risk losing it. The moment anyone tries to defend against Aussies, they will get on top. Aside from all that. Cricket matches are played to win. Simple. Thats what Dhoni thinks , and I agree.

And your argument is solely based on the fact that we can comeup with even a half decent score for even 7 bowlers let alone 5 to defend; on our best batting day SRT=6 batsmen, on our mediocre day 10 of our batsmen score 100 so let me predict this right now- there is no way we are going with your proposed lineup in Nagpur; the difference between a RD and SG is barely 1 innnings so all of these " specilaist batsmen" will end up in the line up- like it or not!

Oh really ? did u see RD's stats over last 2 years quoted above in this thread ? Taken a look at Sourav's ? While I think that Sourav too should be on his way out, at least he deserves his last test, has been performing FAR better than Dravid for last 12 tests. And dont even get into that SRT is God stuff in a serious discussion....just take a look at the last 3-4 series and tell me how he has outscored 6 batters...and how many best days he has had. Right now SRT's role is he is a 50-80 player, probably once in 2 inngs which is fantastic, but nothing more. Of course he should be in the 11, but he is nowhere close to 2 batters right now...I can accept that Sehwag and Gambhir are, but none else. Trust me...check the lineup for next test, and see what is happening.

[Guest HariSampath]

Hari Sampat must be very fast on the key board. Never seen anyone else make such long posts so consistently. May be Lurker comes second.

Dude...I am catching up on replying to a million emails I had neglected over the week....so the posting messages comes in easily in between :giggle:...no great speed :-)

[vroomfondel]

RD is not as much of a walking wicket as you make him out to be. Fine he won't score runs, but he can stick around for 80-90 balls. I still back him for Nagpur. To counter your argument: Sehwag is hit-and-miss, Gambhir has averaged 70-80, but due to fail, SRT, Laxman have been solid, Gangs has shown that he can throw it away. I would also quote a learned friend from the match thread:

HariSampath;507284We will probably save the test' date=' but as Tony Grieg always says : "To get an idea of what the situation is now, add 2 wkts to the scorecard"...and we all know how our famous middle order can suddenly collapse in 30 min. In this kind of a "saving the test mode", all it takes is a sudden burst of 3-4 wicket taking deliveries from someone , and we could be staring down the barrel. I just hope we keep scoring runs, so that Aus cant chase it down even if we collapse.[/quote'] 5 bats, I hope not.

[Guest HariSampath]

RD is not as much of a walking wicket as you make him out to be. Fine he won't score runs, but he can stick around for 80-90 balls

. He is. Yes he wont score runs, and also we dont need anyone to stick around for 90 balls for 17 runs, that kills any winning momentum we have, that too at #3...RD badly screws up SRT's gameplan....all the time. Last time I checked, tests were won/lost because of runs /wkts...not on how long someone stood there doing nothing, or how many maiden overs were bowled.

I still back him for Nagpur. To counter your argument: Sehwag is hit-and-miss, Gambhir has averaged 70-80, but due to fail, SRT, Laxman have been solid, Gangs has shown that he can throw it away.

Sehwag has been far more hit than miss, in his last 7-8 test matches...GG is hit and hit...VVS has got 200, Ganguly a 200 and 2 100s last year...and can be counted on...so what value has RD added to this lineup ? Nothing. My quote was with respect to analysing a game situation, and yes we do collapse...but what will that extra batter do to prevent it ?? especially as he is the worst Indian batter of last 2 years running...averaging 20 over last 15 inngs ...pathetic....If 5 batters can collapse...and if the 6th is RD i current form, then its no use at all.

[Fontaine]

Hari Sampath is dead on right. The Aussi bowlers haven't come CLOSE to taking 20 Indian Wickets and I see NO reason why they would start in Nagpur. Their spin bowling sucks, Clark isn't a wicket taking threat and Lee too inconsistent. If we want to be aggressive then the extra 5th bowler would be a great idea (although I'm not sure whether it should be RP or Munaf). That still gives us guys like Laxman, Dravid, SRT, Ganguly, Gambhir who are all capable of batting out long innings. NONE of the batsmen look like they are in trouble against the Aussi Bowlers. Dravid is short of runs but that's different. Above all else we can't afford Australia to build on their momentum and put up 500 Plus runs in their first innings which would put too much pressure on our batsmen and these guys don't respond well to that kind of pressure. So the extra bowler would really help. And really Bhajji/Khan have been outperforming some of the batsmen anyway so we have the tail in good batting form as well.

[bharat297]

What about Irfan Pathan? Where does he sit? I know his bowling isnt great lately, but if he can get the ball to swing (especially since reverse swing is a factor), then with his batting he poses a bit of a threat too.

[cochise]

I am with Hari on this one. I think his line up is excellent and is the most likely to get us a WIN in Nagpur. That being said, I was also in favour of 5 bowlers at the Kotla at the expense of Laxman, so may be I am not conservative enough... Irfan instead of Munaf is an interesting proposition in that line up...if his current bowling form is decent, that is...

[Guest HariSampath]

Mark this post :-)

Dhoni will be leading in Nagpur. Kumble is not playing. Bhajji comes in for Kumble. India certain to play for a win under Dhoni. Gambhir will probably play in the 11, but in the very unlikely event of he not playing next test, Kohli will be brought in to open . He has opened well in ODIs in SL, has Dhoni's confidence and has got a 100 recently against Australian attack. An additional change maybe that Dravid would be dropped to accommodate Munaf Patel. I think the best 11 now for 4th test would be 1.Sehwag 2. Gambhir 3. VVS 4. Sachin 5. Ganguly 6.Dhoni 7. Harbhajan 8. Zaheer Khan 9. Mishra 10. Ishant 11. Munaf This will be the best 11 , because we have batters in excellent form 2 200s, 100s etc at the top, Dhoni batting very well, Bhajji and Zak batting well lower down. And we need 3 fast bowlers plus 2 specialist spinners to take wickets, with Sehwag too an added option.

Reposting....but read this post again. I knew by 10 am today of certain events that were happening regarding Kumble and Dravid's position. Most public accounts we hear regarding Kumble's retirement are said to have taken place only after Lunch when he informed team mates and Krish Srikkanth. But he had decided in principle by last night. The key issue was " would India by any chance lose this test", which was looking a slight possibility at Lunch : 99-4...so anything could have happened. The team management, chief selector and others were also worried if India did lose remaining wickets for another 50 runs, Aus would have certainly chased down 180 + IF India had lost the test , it would have become a national cricket disaster under Kumble; and NO WAY he could not have been dropped. Alternate plans were already in place this morning itself that Dhoni would lead, Kumble not play in 11 and announce his retirement after Nagpur, along with the felicitation function for Ganguly and VVS. Fortunately 30 min after Lunch, India's position stabilised, and even if we lost SRT, we were never going to lose the test. Hence Kumble decided to announce it today itself. Further Kumble had also discussed his future with the selection committee Chairman Srikkanth after Mohali test and the great gentleman that AK is, he had clearly indicated " If I play against England, it would only be if I am 100% physically fit , and also form fit". To this end, Srikkanth had even offered the option of playing as a bowler , under Dhoni, so that Kumble goes out on a high ( subject to his fitness), but Jumbo did the right thing. On Dravid, I can tell this : He had been served a unofficial notice before this test itself that " runs were expected before Nagpur". Having failed in the 1st inngs and everyone piling on, his position was very very precarious on the 4th evening, thats why a nightwatchman was sent; but RD had to bat anyway. He again failed. Now the selectors are faced with a very difficult task : IF they play him in Nagpur and if he doesnt get a big one, there will be a huge clamour for his head, because NO ONE can justify his repeated failures series after series. This was made v ery clear to Dravid too. On the other hand, IF he decides to announce he is going, they just might give him his last test at Nagpur along with VVS 100th test and Ganguly's farewell. Apparently RD is thinking seriously and also speaking to some former senior cricketers . As the Gambhir issue is not yet done, there is a thinking that RD can be accommodated one last time, if GG doesnt play, meaning RD has to open. Most of the cricketing fraternity feel that with VVS, Ganguly and Kumble going out on a good note or stayng in and performing, perhaps an extra effort will be taken to give RD too the privilege. But if he doesnt plan going or doesnt announce it, AND if he plays in Nagpur and fails, it would mean a terrible situation as he will almost certainly not be considered for selection for the 1st test against England. Hope Dravid does the right thing. ( and IF he does, I do sincerely hope Cheeka supports him for one more test , if necessary by even going in with 4 bowlers , even if GG plays)

[cochise]

Whoa! I am staying tuned to this one...major changes afoot.

[Rajan]

Rahul Dravid WILL play in the final test. Rahul Dravid will certainly play in the nagpur test. whether Gambhir plays or banned, Dravid will be in the playing XI.it is not about the merits and demerits of the case. it is about the system. this is how BCCI works. He is fitter than Laxman, Ganguly and Tendulkar. India will go in with only 4 bowlers. whether it is the correct decision or not, whether it is defensive decision or not, India will be playing 6 specialist batsmen plus Dhoni. I am quite sure that whether it is Dilip Vengsarkar or Krish Srikkanth, the selection committee would not risk a loss in the all important test against the aussies. Alaready v saw Brett Lee regaining some much needed form. v cant expect a greenhorn like Kohli face the likes of Aussies in a deciding test no way. frankly indian selectors dont have the b*lls for taking that calculated risk.safety first is BCCI motto. If Harbhajan is not 100% fit in the next 3 days time, I would choose Ojha, Mishra, Sehwag as the 3 spinners.we need variety.there was lot of rough which Mishra was not able to utilise because he is a bit slow and does not posssess the variations. Katich looked threatening in fact turned the ball and bounced disconcertingly off the rough.

[Guest HariSampath]

Rahul Dravid will certainly play in the nagpur test. whether Gambhir plays or banned, Dravid will be in the playing XI.it is not about the merits and demerits of the case. it is about the system. this is how BCCI works. He is fitter than Laxman, Ganguly and Tendulkar. India will go in with only 4 bowlers. whether it is the correct decision or not, whether it is defensive decision or not, India will be playing 6 specialist batsmen plus Dhoni. I am quite sure that whether it is Dilip Vengsarkar or Krish Srikkanth, the selection committee would not risk a loss in the all important test against the aussies. Alaready v saw Brett Lee regaining some much needed form. v cant expect a greenhorn like Kohli face the likes of Aussies in a deciding test no way. frankly indian selectors dont have the b*lls for taking that calculated risk.safety first is BCCI motto. If Harbhajan is not 100% fit in the next 3 days time, I would choose Ojha, Mishra, Sehwag as the 3 spinners.we need variety.there was lot of rough which Mishra was not able to utilise because he is a bit slow and does not posssess the variations. Katich looked threatening in fact turned the ball and bounced disconcertingly off the rough.

Well..listen to this news. BCCI is now headed by Sashank Manohar, a publicly stated and well known supporter of the younger Brigade, and very much anti Buddha brigade. Selection committe is headed by Krish Srikkanth , a very unconventional and aggressive thinker with complete confidence ONLY in the likes of aggressive batters like Sehwag, Yuvraj, Gambhir and Dhoni. And most importantly the Indian captain is MS Dhoni, who is well known for wanting his own brand of aggressive players, and he plays to win. So with the above trio of Sashank Manohar, Srikkanth , and Dhoni, being the 3 topmost decision makers, what else are you expecting ? And oh...a small addition...the last test is at Nagpur, hometown of the Vidharba cricket association...Sashank Manohar's backyard...you think he doesnt want a series win there , after taking over as BCCI Prez ?? :D or do you think he will go out for a draw *shivering* with fright about Lee and Johnson and praying Dravid saves India ??? LOL

[Rajan]

i stand by my post , no way demeaning the 3 guys u mentioned but this is too risky for them. in fact even with Dhoni as captain, we had a very late declaration in Mohali. winning the series isw more important for BCCI and even this selection committee rather than 1-0 or 2-0 score line. but 1-1 is as good as the loss of a huge opportunity.

[cochise]

And oh...a small addition...the last test is at Nagpur, hometown of the Vidharba cricket association...Sashank Manohar's backyard...you think he doesnt want a series win there , after taking over as BCCI Prez ?? or do you think he will go out for a draw *shivering* with fright about Lee and Johnson and praying Dravid saves India ??? LOL

All this backdrop and behind the scenes dynamics are a revelation to me...very intriguing....