CC1981 Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker Oh and another thing - with all the 'America this,America that' today, people forget that when we speak of western civilization, America does not even enter the picture until 60-70 years ago. Western civilization before the last 60-70 years was defined by europe. Period. So if we are debating the progression of values in the western morality or how stuff happened in western history, unless its about the last 60-70 years, America is irrelevant. 1700s/1800s America was culturally, philosophically and technologically nothing compared to western Europe. Only reason it stayed in touching distance is because apart from colonial Britain and France, America was by size usually 5-10 times larger than European nations with similar population. Ie, abundant per capita resources. They borrowed practically everything from Europe but always stayed a step or two behind. This is why Europe liberalized before America and even to this day Europe is more progressive than USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker CC, Let me start by complimenting your writing and debating skills.It?s par excellence. Now, back to the topic at hand . Let?s not deviate too much from the main topic here which is, your claim that Christianity is the most illogical religion out there . I have to disagree with your assessment . The proof of the pudding is in the eating and it pretty apparent that Christian majority countries have the best setup in terms of democracy which include human rights, religious freedom . Additionally , these countries provide the best framework for progress. Even the framework of constitution of USA is based on Judeo Christian principles. I have already provided sufficient proof to support this claim. Now , if you choose not to believe them , that is your prerogative and I respect your decision. I have already agreed that some of french revolutionist ideas of Voltaire , Jacques rousseau etc were also incorporated by the founding fathers .No , I don?t think it is prudent for you to deny the influence of religion in formulating the constitution by our founding fathers. Now , US constitution was influenced by Christianity vis-a-vis Judeo Christian principles . In my opinion, the following three categories influenced the founding fathers like Madison in drafting our constitution. a. Ten commandments . b. 613 Mitzvot of the Torah as part of the Old testament pertaining to law and order. c. New Testament wherein cannon laws are used as a basis. In fact , Roman Catholic Church still uses them. I feel that you are wrong in your assessment that US constitution enlightenment philosophers had anti-Christian philosophy. Simple example of ?In god we trust? which is embalmed in our currency should indicate to you that it was faith based country and that faith was Christianity. And the founding fathers towed along this line. Of course they added the Judeo in the Judeo-Christianity heritage only in the nineteen century to appease the Jews. I would agree with you on one thing whih is founding fathers like Jefferson, Franklin, Madison etc were enlightenment philosophers. But they never gave up their core Christian belief (except Jefferson who was accused of being atheist and deist) . They may not be hard core , but they were Christians. Even the Philadelphia charter were the constitution was drafted had chaplain service. Even in the Declaration of Independence draft , there are reference to ?God"; "Creator" etc. Even US supreme court starts with a prayer. And mind you these founding fathers actually formed the GOP republican party which the religious right align with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker The proof of the pudding is in the eating and it pretty apparent that Christian majority countries have the best setup in terms of democracy which include human rights, religious freedom . Right. So countries with 10% or less church attendance are 'christian majority' countries. Sorry, i disagree. The west is largely non-christian today, especially amongst the upper circles of the society. They are the ones who are the policymakers. Even the framework of constitution of USA is based on Judeo Christian principles. I don't wish to get adhominem anymore. so i will make this my last post. The US constitution is NOT based on Judeo-Christian principles. It is based on the ANTI-christian works of Voltaire, Rosseau, etc. That is a categoric fact. Until you can accept this categoric fact, known throughout the western classrooms in universities, there can be no further discussion on this. I have already provided sufficient proof to support this claim. No you have not and i've told you why. Quoting the bible is irrelevant - as i said, the bible is such a poorly and contradictory written book that you can defend ANY position and criticise it at the same time using the bible. In my opinion, the following three categories influenced the founding fathers like Madison in drafting our constitution. Madison was influenced by Rosseau and Voltaire. Not the bible. Franklin has already commented on this and so has Lincoln during his end of civil war speech. Simple example of ?In god we trust? which is embalmed in our currency should indicate to you that it was faith based country and that faith was Christianity. Its called appeasement of the masses. Hence its so slogan-heavy but in actual policies and laws, it adopts voltaire, rosseau, etc ( and this is a known fact, not an opinion. A very well known fact). Its called politics. This is very easily seen by the remarkable similarities between the american constitution, commoner agenda during the French Revolution and Voltaire's works. Of course they added the Judeo in the Judeo-Christianity heritage only in the nineteen century to appease the Jews 19th century ? they started it only after the great depression. But they never gave up their core Christian belief (except Jefferson who was accused of being atheist and deist) . George Washington was a deist too. I would agree with you on one thing whih is founding fathers like Jefferson, Franklin, Madison etc were enlightenment philosophers please do not insult philosophers by making every tom,dick and harry who can write a 20 page constitution as a philosopher. Those guys were NOT philosophers. If those blokes are philosophers, then i am a world renowned scientist. Look, i will make this simple. Western civilization in a nutshell : Was doing fine ( Rome/Greece), learning from the older civs (Eypt/mesopotamia)---> Christianity arrives(400 Ad) ----> bloodbaths and crusades and madness ---> reneissance + more madness ---> colonialism + more madness---> Martin Luther destroys catholicism version I ---> inspires free age thinkers ( enlightenment thinkers)---> christianity starts to decline + common sense starts to come back (reflected in the constitutions/charters of this period over the western world) ---> Darwin destroys Christianity in the west ----> terminal decline of Christianity + even more rise in common sense. And why do you keep talking about America ? Since when does america become the beacon of the western civilization in its entirity ? Its the new kid on the block. Look, dont mention America in any significant way before the great depression era. All this constitution stuff, etc etc. were just blind imitation of Europe. Europe is where the western civilization is centered. Not america. It is a categoric fact that the west became more and more civilized as christianity started to decline more and more to today's miniscule church attendance levels. I say christianity is the dumbest because its beleifs are the dumbest. pretty simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker Sweet Jesus in Heaven. Your post makes no sense to me whatsoever . End of Discussion as far as I am concerned. And please don't insult christianity. I am afraid ,you are sounding like a religious zealot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker Not sure if you guys have watched the movie "The Body". Just watch that and then read this news it won't be news at all. The movie "The Body" exactly was on these lines and either they barrowed this story early this century or Cameron barrowed the story from "The Body". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurav Posted March 2, 2007 Author Share Posted March 2, 2007 Re: Jesus tomb found, says film-maker Not sure if you guys have watched the movie "The Body". Just watch that and then read this news it won't be news at all. The movie "The Body" exactly was on these lines and either they barrowed this story early this century or Cameron barrowed the story from "The Body". Man that sounds like a porn movie. "THE BODY" or in Hindi Jisem/sharir :hic: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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