Gunner_Mania Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 Frankly you aren't... at the moment atleast .. isn't that what he said as well? that they havent been formidable for a number of years now?
Precambrian Posted October 10, 2010 Author Posted October 10, 2010 However I do agree India will definitely see a setback once the fab 3 goes... particularly Sachin Tendulkar, but then he's an irreplaceble bat... A Dravid averaging 40 over last few years isn't someone whom you'd call as "irreplaceable"... Yes on paper Dravid is formidable, but clearly he isn't the force he was.. and I see no reason why someone like Pujara can't do what Dravid atm is contributing.... It will be tougher replacing Laxman too I feel.. but I also feel he's got atleast 2 if not more years of cricket left in him... Sehwag and Gambhir are going to be around together for sometime.. Gambhir will be touchig his peak in a few years too... And we have already started blooding youngsters like Raina, Vijay & Pujara now, while they haven't exactly set the world on fire, they haven't been completely out of depth at test level, ie, Raina and Vijay.. Look at this, Vijay made his test debut in 2008, and he still contiues to be first choice replacement... Then there are the likes of Rahane who are waiting in the wings.. they have brilliant domestic records, and have done pretty much everything they can at their level... Bowling - Harby is going to be around for sometime.. he's having a bad time but I feel pitches are also to be blamed for his predicament.. There is healthy competition between Mishra and Ojha for second spinner spot and Piyush and Ashwin are also looking promising. Fast bowling may look a bit worrying.. but I am optimistic in that regard also.. Ishant is still only 20, and you don't become the complete fast bowler at that age, heck Zaheer was terrible for about 5 years after he debuted remember... I am damn sure he;ll come good because he has the right work ethic... Sree is mercurial.. but free of injuries he'll do India a world of good... esp on assisting wickets... So overall while India will feel the pinch of retirement of stalwarts, I don't think it will be as huge as losing McGrath, Warne, Langer, Gilly, Hayden, etc in the space of a year or so...
Precambrian Posted October 10, 2010 Author Posted October 10, 2010 isn't that what he said as well? that they havent been formidable for a number of years now? oops
Chandan Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 However I do agree India will definitely see a setback once the fab 3 goes... particularly Sachin Tendulkar, but then he's an irreplaceble bat... A Dravid averaging 40 over last few years isn't someone whom you'd call as "irreplaceable"... Yes on paper Dravid is formidable, but clearly he isn't the force he was.. and I see no reason why someone like Pujara can't do what Dravid atm is contributing.... It will be tougher replacing Laxman too I feel.. but I also feel he's got atleast 2 if not more years of cricket left in him... Sehwag and Gambhir are going to be around together for sometime.. Gambhir will be touchig his peak in a few years too... And we have already started blooding youngsters like Raina, Vijay & Pujara now, while they haven't exactly set the world on fire, they haven't been completely out of depth at test level, ie, Raina and Vijay.. Look at this, Vijay made his test debut in 2008, and he still contiues to be first choice replacement... Then there are the likes of Rahane who are waiting in the wings.. they have brilliant domestic records, and have done pretty much everything they can at their level... Bowling - Harby is going to be around for sometime.. he's having a bad time but I feel pitches are also to be blamed for his predicament.. There is healthy competition between Mishra and Ojha for second spinner spot and Piyush and Ashwin are also looking promising. Fast bowling may look a bit worrying.. but I am optimistic in that regard also.. Ishant is still only 20, and you don't become the complete fast bowler at that age, heck Zaheer was terrible for about 5 years after he debuted remember... I am damn sure he;ll come good because he has the right work ethic... Sree is mercurial.. but free of injuries he'll do India a world of good... esp on assisting wickets... So overall while India will feel the pinch of retirement of stalwarts, I don't think it will be as huge as losing McGrath, Warne, Langer, Gilly, Hayden, etc in the space of a year or so... Too much expectation! None of the young batsmen have batted outside subcontinent to tell us how they'll do for us overseas. Even Gambhir will be touring SA for the first time this year and then England next year. One can't make assumptions on our Ranji records about the real talent of batsmen. Pace and spin department are equally worrying. So just don't have very high expectations.
Precambrian Posted October 10, 2010 Author Posted October 10, 2010 Too much expectation! None of the young batsmen have batted outside subcontinent to tell us how they'll do for us overseas. Even Gambhir will be touring SA for the first time this year and then England next year. One can't make assumptions on our Ranji records about the real talent of batsmen. Pace and spin department are equally worrying. So just don't have very high expectations. 1. We play more than half of our matches in the subcontinent.. perhaps upto 60% of our matches. So we need batsmen who can thrive here as well.. 2. Well, isn't that the case with EVERY batsman who has not played test cricket?? See someone like Rahane hardly gets any chance to play outside SC. But with whatever opportunities they've got, they haven't done too badly... Nobody is claiming with a Ranji avg of 60, Pujara will come and score @ test avg of 50... 3. Ganguly, Dravid etc were also equally rookies during tour of England... but see what they did?? Did anyone expect them to step up to Int cricket till then?? Or take the case of Sehwag, he too was scoring prolifically in domestic setup only.. same ranji trophy.. but he also stepped up... Don't be in a hurry to write off Ranji trophy performances... 4. FTR, Rahane averages 94 outside India in FC matches, and Pujara 64... they've played in Australia, England, Pakistan, etc...
Bradman99 Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 However I do agree India will definitely see a setback once the fab 3 goes... particularly Sachin Tendulkar, but then he's an irreplaceble bat... A Dravid averaging 40 over last few years isn't someone whom you'd call as "irreplaceable"... Yes on paper Dravid is formidable, but clearly he isn't the force he was.. and I see no reason why someone like Pujara can't do what Dravid atm is contributing.... It will be tougher replacing Laxman too I feel.. but I also feel he's got atleast 2 if not more years of cricket left in him... Sehwag and Gambhir are going to be around together for sometime.. Gambhir will be touchig his peak in a few years too... And we have already started blooding youngsters like Raina, Vijay & Pujara now, while they haven't exactly set the world on fire, they haven't been completely out of depth at test level, ie, Raina and Vijay.. Look at this, Vijay made his test debut in 2008, and he still contiues to be first choice replacement... Then there are the likes of Rahane who are waiting in the wings.. they have brilliant domestic records, and have done pretty much everything they can at their level... Bowling - Harby is going to be around for sometime.. he's having a bad time but I feel pitches are also to be blamed for his predicament.. There is healthy competition between Mishra and Ojha for second spinner spot and Piyush and Ashwin are also looking promising. Fast bowling may look a bit worrying.. but I am optimistic in that regard also.. Ishant is still only 20, and you don't become the complete fast bowler at that age, heck Zaheer was terrible for about 5 years after he debuted remember... I am damn sure he;ll come good because he has the right work ethic... Sree is mercurial.. but free of injuries he'll do India a world of good... esp on assisting wickets... So overall while India will feel the pinch of retirement of stalwarts, I don't think it will be as huge as losing McGrath, Warne, Langer, Gilly, Hayden, etc in the space of a year or so... No it wont but you guys will still feel the force of these losses I feel, whilst Australia have been without their key men for years now, so by the time Indias key players start retiring Australias should be hitting their peak. Aussies have Hussey, Ponting to retire soon who are replacable given their current form, praticularly Hussey whom I believe we will benefit from retiring although that may sound harsh. I would have to see a bit more of the guys you have mentioned before seeing whether they can help maintain Indias position. I'm a bit shocked about what you say about Watson though, I think the man is a class act, in the past year he has been up there with the best batsman in the game without a doubt. He looks the goods and is only 28 so we will have many more years out of him. I think the likes of White, Ferguson, Kwahwaja, Smith, Hughes, Paine, etc will ensure Australia have a healthy future in the game.
Precambrian Posted October 10, 2010 Author Posted October 10, 2010 No it wont but you guys will still feel the force of these losses I feel, whilst Australia have been without their key men for years now, so by the time Indias key players start retiring Australias should be hitting their peak. Aussies have Hussey, Ponting to retire soon who are replacable given their current form, praticularly Hussey whom I believe we will benefit from retiring although that may sound harsh. I would have to see a bit more of the guys you have mentioned before seeing whether they can help maintain Indias position. I'm a bit shocked about what you say about Watson though, I think the man is a class act, in the past year he has been up there with the best batsman in the game without a doubt. He looks the goods and is only 28 so we will have many more years out of him. I think the likes of White, Ferguson, Kwahwaja, Smith, Hughes, Paine, etc will ensure Australia have a healthy future in the game. I am happy to hear names of guys who can replace Ponting etc.. just want to start putting a tab on their domestic performances. But don't you think 3-4 years is enough time to do the "transition" act? Nobody is expecting Australia to continue demolishing opposition and maintain 10-15+ points lead on rank table, but atleast enough to cling onto a no.2 or no.3?? Please don't give me "ICC rankings are ****" argument.. They are indeed perhaps one of the the best statistical models avl now to analyse team performances.. Re watson, I am happy with his performances, his moronness notwithstanding I actually like the chap, his commitment.. he's been pretty good on this tour as well.. but let's not forget batting first on Indian pitches isn't exactly soul wrenching stuff.. that he was also dropped in the first test (sorry wasn't he whom Sehwag dropped?? Apologies if it isn't the case)... and scoring off the new ball is relatively easier than facing an old ball in India... Still credit where due.. but I'd like to wait a bit before pronouncing Watson a "Great".. ATM he is a good test player.. like Clarke.. is becoming dependable.. and if injuries don't flatten him, should hit a nice peak... But enough to brand him "GREAT"??? I'd like to wait, with his current avg of 40 odd... I cannot but help notice this: If India has Sachin to lose, Aussies have Ponting.. For Laxman and Dravid, in case of Aussies there is Hussey and Katich (both on wrong side of 35 nw) Sehwag + Gambhir > Watson + Hughes Dhoni >>> Paine Spinners of India :>>> Aussie spinners Smith, Khawaja, White etc are as unproven as Pujara/Raina/Mukund/Rahane etc of India... Pace bowling of Aussies >> India however... It's going to be damn interesting.. test cricket will sport a fresh outlook ni the next 3-4 years as regards to both teams...
Bradman99 Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 I am happy to hear names of guys who can replace Ponting etc.. just want to start putting a tab on their domestic performances. But don't you think 3-4 years is enough time to do the "transition" act? Nobody is expecting Australia to continue demolishing opposition and maintain 10-15+ points lead on rank table, but atleast enough to cling onto a no.2 or no.3?? Please don't give me "ICC rankings are ****" argument.. They are indeed perhaps one of the the best statistical models avl now to analyse team performances.. Re watson, I am happy with his performances, his moronness notwithstanding I actually like the chap, his commitment.. he's been pretty good on this tour as well.. but let's not forget batting first on Indian pitches isn't exactly soul wrenching stuff.. that he was also dropped in the first test (sorry wasn't he whom Sehwag dropped?? Apologies if it isn't the case)... and scoring off the new ball is relatively easier than facing an old ball in India... Still credit where due.. but I'd like to wait a bit before pronouncing Watson a "Great".. ATM he is a good test player.. like Clarke.. is becoming dependable.. and if injuries don't flatten him, should hit a nice peak... But enough to brand him "GREAT"??? I'd like to wait, with his current avg of 40 odd... I cannot but help notice this: If India has Sachin to lose, Aussies have Ponting.. For Laxman and Dravid, in case of Aussies there is Hussey and Katich (both on wrong side of 35 nw) Sehwag + Gambhir > Watson + Hughes Dhoni >>> Paine Spinners of India :>>> Aussie spinners Smith, Khawaja, White etc are as unproven as Pujara/Raina/Mukund/Rahane etc of India... Pace bowling of Aussies >> India however... It's going to be damn interesting.. test cricket will sport a fresh outlook ni the next 3-4 years as regards to both teams... I have nothing against the rankings, I think they are fine but I think Australia are a better side than the ranking would suggest. Watson got off to a very slow start in terms of his batting average so it was always going to be tough for him to bring that average up but his done a great job of it and I see no signs of him stopping. Yes, but you see the comparisons you are making I think will hurt India more than Australia. Tendulkar will be a bigger blow than Ponting. Dravid and Laxman much bigger losses than Hussey. Katich will be a loss but he will be replaced by either a Jacques or a Hughes and one of them will cement that spot. I do agree though that interesting times are ahead and there isn't much point speculating whats going to happen, we'll just have to wait and see I guess :two_thumbs_up:
ZodiaC Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 I am happy to hear names of guys who can replace Ponting etc.. just want to start putting a tab on their domestic performances. But don't you think 3-4 years is enough time to do the "transition" act? Nobody is expecting Australia to continue demolishing opposition and maintain 10-15+ points lead on rank table, but atleast enough to cling onto a no.2 or no.3?? Please don't give me "ICC rankings are ****" argument.. They are indeed perhaps one of the the best statistical models avl now to analyse team performances.. Re watson, I am happy with his performances, his moronness notwithstanding I actually like the chap, his commitment.. he's been pretty good on this tour as well.. but let's not forget batting first on Indian pitches isn't exactly soul wrenching stuff.. that he was also dropped in the first test (sorry wasn't he whom Sehwag dropped?? Apologies if it isn't the case)... and scoring off the new ball is relatively easier than facing an old ball in India... Still credit where due.. but I'd like to wait a bit before pronouncing Watson a "Great".. ATM he is a good test player.. like Clarke.. is becoming dependable.. and if injuries don't flatten him, should hit a nice peak... But enough to brand him "GREAT"??? I'd like to wait, with his current avg of 40 odd... I cannot but help notice this: If India has Sachin to lose, Aussies have Ponting.. For Laxman and Dravid, in case of Aussies there is Hussey and Katich (both on wrong side of 35 nw) Sehwag + Gambhir > Watson + Hughes Dhoni >>> Paine Spinners of India :>>> Aussie spinners Smith, Khawaja, White etc are as unproven as Pujara/Raina/Mukund/Rahane etc of India... Pace bowling of Aussies >> India however... It's going to be damn interesting.. test cricket will sport a fresh outlook ni the next 3-4 years as regards to both teams... @ Dhoni>>>Paine, too early to judge IMO, Dhoni struggled early on too, while Paine has played a few good knocks since his debut. Agree with the rest.
Precambrian Posted October 10, 2010 Author Posted October 10, 2010 @ Dhoni>>>Paine, too early to judge IMO, Dhoni struggled early on too, while Paine has played a few good knocks since his debut. Agree with the rest. All comparisons are at the moment... Paine is miles if not lightyears behind Dhoni as a player, ODI, T20 or tests.... It might change in the future... but that requires Dhoni to substantially underperform and Paine to really kick and scream above what he looks like he can atm... All Aussie keepers can't be Gilchrists and it's damn unfair on them too..
Gunner_Mania Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 Don't forget that there is still Haddin before Paine gets his chance. In fact on comms this morning thats what Gilly was saying that the wicket keeping transition has been the most seamless - from Healy to himself to Haddin & Now Paine being ready to replace in case Haddin is injured like now..
Precambrian Posted October 10, 2010 Author Posted October 10, 2010 Don't forget that there is still Haddin before Paine gets his chance. In fact on comms this morning thats what Gilly was saying that the wicket keeping transition has been the most seamless - from Healy to himself to Haddin & Now Paine being ready to replace in case Haddin is injured like now.. iirc they tried Luke Ronchi as backup for Haddin didnt they??
Karan114 Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 Not in Test matches, and in fact he barely played a few limited overs games even.
Precambrian Posted October 10, 2010 Author Posted October 10, 2010 Not in Test matches' date=' and in fact he barely played a few limited overs games even.[/quote'] Oops I actually meant Graham Manou... He indeed played a test in the 09 Ashes when Haddin was injured.. (was actually given a contract in 08 iirc) iirc Paine came into serious reckoning only this year... and there was a bit of round the chairs between him, Manou and Hartley for the keeper's job.
ZodiaC Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 All comparisons are at the moment... Paine is miles if not lightyears behind Dhoni as a player, ODI, T20 or tests.... It might change in the future... but that requires Dhoni to substantially underperform and Paine to really kick and scream above what he looks like he can atm... All Aussie keepers can't be Gilchrists and it's damn unfair on them too.. If you compare Dhoni's current form (in tests), I think Paine is doing better. A couple of 50's during crucial period in this series, with a similar knock of 48 against Pak.
Karan114 Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 Oops I actually meant Graham Manou... He indeed played a test in the 09 Ashes when Haddin was injured.. (was actually given a contract in 08 iirc) iirc Paine came into serious reckoning only this year... and there was a bit of round the chairs between him, Manou and Hartley for the keeper's job. Yeah, Manou was the reserve keeper in the Ashes, and you are correct about Paine - he was the reserve ODI keeper on that tour (played after Haddin got injured) and only came into the Test reckoning this year after Haddin got injured before the Pakistan series in England. Paine has done well with both bat and gloves (a missed stumping off Raina at Mohali has been his only real lapse) so Haddin has some competition now.
Karan114 Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 If you compare Dhoni's current form (in tests)' date=' I think Paine is doing better. A couple of 50's during crucial period in this series, with a similar knock of 48 against Pak.[/quote'] Dhoni's Test form has slipped since the SL series - just one fifty in four Tests and that was on the road at the SSC, and numerous mistakes behind the stumps which were a surprise given his keeping has improved so much over the years. Keeping, being an important batsman and leading the side is just such a huge workload both physically and mentally.
Precambrian Posted October 10, 2010 Author Posted October 10, 2010 If you compare Dhoni's current form (in tests)' date=' I think Paine is doing better. A couple of 50's during crucial period in this series, with a similar knock of 48 against Pak.[/quote'] Current form as in 2 innings?? Yes, Dhoni has been out of form a bit, but Paine has played just 3 test innings.. and registered a 50+ score.. Let's wait till we get some sort of sample before we decide on whether Paine can be > Dhoni.. but you don't get to buy a 40+ avg batting at no.7 after 47 test matches... with 4 100s thrown in for good measure as well... Dhoni is going through a minor blip agreed,
ZodiaC Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 Current form as in 2 innings?? Yes, Dhoni has been out of form a bit, but Paine has played just 3 test innings.. and registered a 50+ score.. Let's wait till we get some sort of sample before we decide on whether Paine can be > Dhoni.. but you don't get to buy a 40+ avg batting at no.7 after 47 test matches... with 4 100s thrown in for good measure as well... Dhoni is going through a minor blip agreed, Yep, hence the Dhoni Paine comparison is unfair too, that's all.
99.94 Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 This would also mean they go into the Ashes ranked below England and thus start as underdogs, Well it's in Australia.. we are still firm favourites.
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